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How do bank payments actually work?

290 点作者 alexbilbie超过 9 年前

22 条评论

pc86超过 9 年前
I was just complaining to my wife about this earlier this morning (we are in the US).<p>I made a credit card payment last Thursday (1&#x2F;14) in the mid morning, maybe 9:45 AM. Ideally this should happen pretty quickly, but I know in the US the infrastructure just doesn&#x27;t match my current expectations. Seemingly there was zero movement until my credit account was credited the payment Friday afternoon, but the money was still in my checking account (no holds or pending transactions).<p>The weekend goes by, no movement. Monday (a bank holiday) comes and goes, as does Tuesday. I get a text message early this morning (~6:45 AM) that there was a large withdrawal from my checking account - the payment showed up! Nearly three full business days before the money was actually moved, and as of right now it&#x27;s still a pending transaction.<p>The cynic in my wants to think that it&#x27;s so people who don&#x27;t pay attention to their finances are more likely to overdraw&#x2F;double-spend the money, but part of me thinks it&#x27;s just because the US infrastructure around banking and payments is so old it just isn&#x27;t capable of anything approaching real time transactions. I would love to see a logistical&#x2F;technical explanation of why it takes so long for this type of thing in the US.
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jslampe超过 9 年前
Source: I one of the elected tech-reps on the The Faster Payment Task Force,a Fed-chartered initiative to create a real-time improved bank transfer system, like the one in the UK. I also work at Dwolla, a payment platform that has exclusively focused on modernizing the backend ACH system for over 5 years, as well as created our own real-time system for banks (See: FiSync).<p>There&#x27;s a lot of good, and bad, information here. It&#x27;s all impossible to tackle, so I&#x27;m going to point to the good things the US has going for it. (Worth getting other Fed Fast members and doing an AMA? Let me know):<p>1) As many mentioned, Same-Day ACH is coming (slowly but surely). Although not real-time, it will be a helpful stopgap as more real-time systems come online at financial institutions (see: #3). Combined with new Payment API Platforms, like Dwolla, many of us are enabling meaningful access and adding flexibility to an otherwise outdated platform. This will position platforms to take advantage of these new timeframes when they start arriving late 2016 and 2017. 2) The major ACH operators, The Federal Reserve and the bank-owned The Clearing House, are both making significant investments in their tech stack to enable real-time capabilities (The Fed just inked a $17M deal with IBM to update their software and capabilities, and TCH signed a deal with UK Faster Payments Provider, VocaLink). 3) The Faster Payment Task Force is an unprecedented market-led initiative, which despite all odds, that actually making meaningful progress on aligning the criteria and expectations for an interoperable real-time system. This is HUGE. Imagine cramming +300 lifelong competitors, embattled legal adversaries, entrenched interests, and long-standing rivalries in one room to debate the future of a trillion dollar landscape. Now imagine them to agreeing to create a better system. And I&#x27;m not just talking about improvements in speed, but better security, flexibility, and capabilities that could enable the next wave of commerce. Keep your eyes on <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;fedpaymentsimprovement.org&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;fedpaymentsimprovement.org&#x2F;</a>, big news is coming in the next few weeks.
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jrcii超过 9 年前
Regarding international payments, I dug into this a little one day out of curiosity and ended up here: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.frbservices.org&#x2F;eventseducation&#x2F;education&#x2F;fedwire_chips_swift_format_info.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.frbservices.org&#x2F;eventseducation&#x2F;education&#x2F;fedwir...</a> The PDFs on that page appear to show you precisely how the XML messages that conduct the transfers are formatted<p>There&#x27;s some interesting stuff I couldn&#x27;t get to here <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www2.swift.com&#x2F;uhbonline&#x2F;books&#x2F;hub&#x2F;httoc.htm" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www2.swift.com&#x2F;uhbonline&#x2F;books&#x2F;hub&#x2F;httoc.htm</a><p>And some other interesting stuff covering these standards <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;project.i20022.com&#x2F;the-standard" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;project.i20022.com&#x2F;the-standard</a> <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.c24.biz&#x2F;c24-io-standards-financial-messaging-libraries" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.c24.biz&#x2F;c24-io-standards-financial-messaging-libr...</a>
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lucaspiller超过 9 年前
I never thought I&#x27;d say this, but banks in the UK are actually pretty good. Over the last few years I&#x27;ve lived in a few different countries and banks just dont compare.<p>In the UK you can open a bank account for free, with no minimum balance and no stupid charges (i.e. ATM withdrawals, even at your own bank).
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tinkerrr超过 9 年前
There was a discussion a couple of years ago around how ACH works. ACH is the dominant system of money transfer in the US and takes 2-5 business days on average for a transfer, compared to the real-time systems in many other countries.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=7636066" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=7636066</a>
petke超过 9 年前
I&#x27;m disappointed there isn&#x27;t a guy moving a small gold coin from one vault to another at the central bank every time I buy something with my debit card. &quot;looks like bob is getting drunk on cheap beer at the local pub again. If he&#x27;d just order a bottle of wiskey instead I wouldnt have to run back and forth all damn night. Maybe id get to go home and see my kids for once&quot;
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cmurf超过 9 年前
I think the main reason is all seems pretty stupid is because the system, even within one country, is so f&#x27;n goddamn huge with a lot of legacy stuff in it, that bad UX is just inevitable, rather than being incompetent.<p>But an exception to incompetence is the EMV&#x27;s decision in the U.S. to transition from swipe &amp; sign, to chip &amp; sign, and later (2018?) to chip &amp; PIN. That really is just stupid. In the U.S. my debit card I never sign for whether chip or swipe, I always use PIN. In Europe, that same card when swiped I&#x27;m asked for PIN, if I use the chip it wants sign! WTF?<p>The delays of ACH seem less between friends at least if you use Venmo or Google Wallet since that&#x27;s effectively private currency (within that system) and then only periodically use a &quot;sweep&quot; action if that balance gets higher than you want.
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m_eiman超过 9 年前
The Swedish equivalent to Paym, called Swish, has been really successful. Probably an interesting case to study for those trying to create the next Paypal.
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kbart超过 9 年前
Good article. I&#x27;d like more technical details, especially security related, as some pretty hard problems must have been solved to implement such system where every error or vulnerability might costs tons of money. Any recommendations?
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stanmancan超过 9 年前
In Canada we have something called an Interact E-Transfer that the major banks all support. You add a recipients email address and create a &quot;secret question&quot; they can answer. Then, you simply fill our a form that says &quot;Send $X From Account Y to Recipient Z&quot;. Depending on the bank the email is sent between 0-60 minutes later, the recipient clicks the link, logs in, and picks which account to deposit it to. The whole process is super easy to use.<p>Most banks charge about $1 per Interact E-Transfer, but some accounts will get a certain number of free transfers.<p>With all that being said, I just received an email from TD Canada Trust (One of the major banks) stating that they are now imposing a $5 fee to cancel an E-Transfer (previously free). I can&#x27;t remember the last time I cancelled an E-Transfer, but I&#x27;m still most likely going to close all my accounts with them over it. I find it absolutely outrageous that they would charge you $5 to cancel a completely automated process. The only explanation I can think of is to nickle and dime their customers.
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Animats超过 9 年前
All the fast payment systems outside the US are Government-run. In the US, online payments are run by private enterprise. The US doesn&#x27;t have enough socialism for this to work.<p>The US Fed has been pushing for faster payment processing, but the big banks don&#x27;t want it.
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gambiting超过 9 年前
&quot;The transaction limit has recently been raised to £250,000 per payment&quot;<p>So what happens if you want to send more? Do you need to make a personal trip to the bank or is there some other system in place?
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SwaroopH超过 9 年前
India uses something similar – IMPS. <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.npci.org.in&#x2F;aboutimps.aspx" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.npci.org.in&#x2F;aboutimps.aspx</a>
omh超过 9 年前
This type of system looks like somewhere that a blockchain could be genuinely useful.<p>Each of the trusted banks could be given access to the blockchain (rather than needing proof-of-work) and it would work as a distributed ledger without the need for VocaLink as a trusted intermediary.<p>Of course the question is how the costs of running VocaLink compare to those of running a blockchain type system.
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tantalor超过 9 年前
&gt; Net settlement is used because it’s more efficient - it only requires a few hundred entries in the Bank of England’s ledgers each day for potentially millions of payments.<p>Not a very compelling reason... storage is cheap!
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jxm262超过 9 年前
This reminds me a bit of Prudio <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.prudio.com&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.prudio.com&#x2F;</a> Saw that project on the old assembly site (was a cool idea).
pmorici超过 9 年前
Anyone who doubts why something like Bitcoin would be of use in banking should read the part about net settlement and counter party risk.<p>This article describes the system for moving money within one country but similar mechanisms exist for moving money internationally. Imagine the counter party risk involved between banks who are governed by different central banks in different countries half way around the world. Bitcoin removes the counter party risk in transfers by making settlement instant per transaction instead of net daily settlement in traditional banking.<p>The reason this is important is that these transfers revolve around credit and when there is a banking crisis and everyone suspects everyone else&#x27;s credit worthiness then payment systems can break down.
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jstanley超过 9 年前
&gt; Sadly, uptake of Paym has been slow.<p>I don&#x27;t think this is very sad. I don&#x27;t use Paym. I think account number + sort code is easy enough to deal with and doesn&#x27;t need to be changed.
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TamDenholm超过 9 年前
By the way, Mondo are doing a hack weekend this weekend and i&#x27;ll be attending, if anyone else on HN is, please shoot me a mail (see profile).
capex超过 9 年前
Do we have something like FPS in Australia?
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phkahler超过 9 年前
So everything seems to go back to money in accounts at the bank of England. Where does that &quot;money&quot; come from? How are there non-zero balances there? What stops someone at BoE from just changing a balance?<p>I guess changing an account balance without a corresponding transaction would make automated checks (accounting verification) fail. But then we get back to the question of how any money got in the system in the first place.
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abcampbell超过 9 年前
The US ACH system is actually what killed bitcoin as a currency fwiw.<p>It&#x27;s like the system acting in self-defense
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