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Is it the Wealth Gap that's bad or the Empathy Gap that comes with it?

109 点作者 petenixey超过 9 年前

25 条评论

twoquestions超过 9 年前
This guy put into much better words what I&#x27;ve been thinking for a while.<p>It doesn&#x27;t matter to me at all that Bill Gates has more money than God, because he&#x27;s empathetic to people who aren&#x27;t as rich and aren&#x27;t as great as he is, and wants to continue to use his strength to lift people up instead of feathering his own nest even more.<p>It&#x27;s when people get the idea that &quot;I&#x27;m better, so I deserve better than Them!&quot; that really raises my eyebrows. I have no problem with people having more money than me, it&#x27;s when they make a new world for themselves (like the movie in the article) and cut themselves off from the world they served in order to get rich is when Really Bad Things Happen.
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white-flame超过 9 年前
If the poor end of the wealth gap are still better off than 90% of the rest of the world, why does the wealth gap matter?<p>That was my thinking for quite a while.<p>However, the one thing that happens here in the US is that the wealthy have more representation and power in the legal system. Be it federal or local, the systems tend to get slanted against the not-wealthy because the wealthy take over the communications channel to the movers &amp; shakers.<p>It&#x27;s in many ways becoming the new &quot;taxation without representation&quot;.
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Terr_超过 9 年前
It&#x27;s not just empathy in the social buddies sense, but also that -- to quote a study name -- &quot;Higher social class predicts increased unethical behavior.&quot;<p>Abstract: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.pnas.org&#x2F;content&#x2F;109&#x2F;11&#x2F;4086" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.pnas.org&#x2F;content&#x2F;109&#x2F;11&#x2F;4086</a><p>PDF: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.pnas.org&#x2F;content&#x2F;early&#x2F;2012&#x2F;02&#x2F;21&#x2F;1118373109.full.pdf" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.pnas.org&#x2F;content&#x2F;early&#x2F;2012&#x2F;02&#x2F;21&#x2F;1118373109.full...</a><p>And yes, there are some hints to <i>causation</i> in there, where a participant was made &quot;wealthier&quot; (in a game context) and then differences were observed.
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browseatwork超过 9 年前
Some studies showing effects of higher wealth on people below. Not perfect, and e.g. the simple correlation between unethical and law breaking is naive, but it&#x27;s some data.<p>tl;dr: &quot;Abtract: Seven studies using experimental and naturalistic methods reveal that upper-class individuals behave more unethically than lower-class individuals. In studies 1 and 2, upper-class individuals were more likely to break the law while driving, relative to lower-class individuals. In follow-up laboratory studies, upper-class individuals were more likely to exhibit unethical decision-making tendencies (study 3), take valued goods from others (study 4), lie in a negotiation (study 5), cheat to increase their chances of winning a prize (study 6), and endorse unethical behavior at work (study 7) than were lower-class individuals. Mediator and moderator data demonstrated that upper-class individuals’ unethical tendencies are accounted for, in part, by their more favorable attitudes toward greed.&quot;<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.pnas.org&#x2F;content&#x2F;109&#x2F;11&#x2F;4086.short" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.pnas.org&#x2F;content&#x2F;109&#x2F;11&#x2F;4086.short</a><p>One weird thing- these and some other studies I have read support poorer people have more empathy&#x2F;make more eye contact in conversation and pay more attention to conversation partners&#x2F;etc. Why then does that group seem on the whole to have more antagonism towards wealthier people (than vice versa)?
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sharemywin超过 9 年前
Capitalism works best when two parties have similar information, resources, etc. Cell phone contracts are a perfect example. They&#x27;ve had teams of lawyers, arbitration and everything thing else on their side and lobbyists to write the laws to fit them. I can sign it or leave it. I also remember democracy isn&#x27;t two wolves and a sheep deciding what&#x27;s for dinner. So I&#x27;m not saying socialism&#x27;s the answer either. I think taxing the rich is the lazy way out. like libertarian-ism &quot;let&#x27;s do nothing and that will fix it&quot;. I think we&#x27;re on the wrong side of the Laffer curve and because poor people spend more and there for generate more now income.
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danharaj超过 9 年前
The empathy gap is just one way in which the distribution and flow of capital organizes social relations.<p>My position is that it isn&#x27;t even the wealth gap that is the issue. The wealth gap is itself just one way in which the distribution and flow of capital organizes social relations. I think it is short-sighted to focus on particular rich people and their exorbitant wealth even though it is a grotesque experience: gawking at the rich has a visceral appeal like watching a horror movie or reading a Kafka novel.<p>Nobody talks about the &#x27;wealth gap&#x27; between governments and people. Nobody talks about the &#x27;wealth gap&#x27; between banks and people. They talk about the relationships i mentioned, they just don&#x27;t frame it as a &#x27;wealth gap&#x27;. Nobody talks about the &#x27;wealth gap&#x27; when the police harass homeless people. Ultimately though, the relation between government and people and financial institutions and people and police&#x2F;army and people is as much a consequence of the dynamics of capital as rich people being inconsiderate assholes.<p>And of course it&#x27;s a self-referential non-linear system. Governments and financial institutions and individual capitalists and armies shape the rules and command the forces that make capital a thing. Even so, governments, banks, capitalists, and armies may each in turn fall as the wheel of fortune turns, but Government, Bank, Capitalist, Army in the abstract are part and parcel of capitalism.
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dsugarman超过 9 年前
&gt;<i>But, as Paul Graham points out, that is not the same thing as saying that inequality is bad. What it says is that poverty is bad. And that’s something that I don’t think anyone would argue with.</i><p>I think that&#x27;s the point isn&#x27;t it? The rest of the post talks about how you don&#x27;t have empathy with a wealth gap, but the examples given are really showing how it is hard to empathize with those in poverty and that&#x27;s where the the problem is. It is hard for someone who even was in poverty in the past to empathize with people currently in poverty because you aren&#x27;t going through it every day.
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dsmithatx超过 9 年前
The wealthy are getting huge raises and big golden parachutes. The workers are lucky to be getting a 3% raise in good years. Some of us have even taken pay cuts as they take bigger pay increases. The execs are basically stealing away our extra spending money and our kids college education. I&#x27;d argue the Wealth Gap follows a gap of empathy. Then look at how the wealthy use politics to misappropriate and destroy social security. They don&#x27;t even care about the middle class workers as they become elderly.
golergka超过 9 年前
I&#x27;m pretty sure I&#x27;ve seen an episode of Friends with the exact same story about splitting the lunch. But after that story, I expected the author to bring analogy back to the realm of social and economic matters, and show how, on global scale, wealthy are trying to &quot;divide by the number of people&quot; when they&#x27;ve been ordering more than others, but he never delivered. Just as the book that he criticized, it&#x27;s just a sympathetic story.
pierrebai超过 9 年前
The main problem is viewing the wealth inequality as a state instead of an outcome. The problem is not in the inequality in itself but in the process and environement that result in the inequality. A country with higher inequality is very likely one where opportunities and power are inequal.<p>(And to address a comment I read about inequality being a reflection of ability and efficiency: I think we&#x27;re better off with some inneficiency if it means more people have control over their lives. No, farm lands should not go to the most efficient farmers. It should be spread to distribute the most well-being to the most people.)
bobby_9x超过 9 年前
I grew up poor, made okay money when I started my development career, and now make more money than all of my friends from the business I started 5 years ago.<p>I am by no means rich, but I am comfortable. I also have a pretty flexible schedule and I bought a nice house a couple of years ago.<p>I&#x27;ve pretty much stopped telling people that I have a business because there is an automatic assumption that I am rich and either should pay more for something or don&#x27;t understand what it&#x27;s like to be poor.<p>I&#x27;ve seen so many friends that barely scrape by, but choose to spend tons of cash every month on booze, weed, entertainment, new electronics, concerts, and all sorts of other non-essentials.<p>I sacrificed all of this for years (I never get the latest and greatest phone and get the cheapest plan from Walmart), in exchange for a comfortable life now.<p>Should I now somehow feel bad about this? Frankly, I&#x27;m tired of the people that wasted so much of their own money through poor life choices telling me why I should be giving more of the money I earned to pay for their lifestyle.<p>With the attitudes I see online and in the media about anyone that has money, it&#x27;s really not hard to see why the rich seem like they have lost any kind of empathy for the poor...I know I have.
vinceguidry超过 9 年前
I don&#x27;t understand the point he makes about forced discretionary spending. I have never bought a round of drinks at a bar, except in foreign countries where a round cost me less than $5. I don&#x27;t ever feel like there&#x27;s discretionary spending I&#x27;m <i>forced</i> to take. I either can afford it or I can&#x27;t, and if I can&#x27;t, I don&#x27;t buy it and I don&#x27;t feel guilty about it.<p>I buy other&#x27;s drinks all the time. Never a whole round. That&#x27;s ridiculous. Why he felt obligated to do that was left unsaid, but I doubt his reasons would convince me that he was actually forced to do that.<p>More generally, as you rise up the social ranks, you have to get more and more comfortable with gross differences in wealth and learn to be able to be comfortable with and accommodate socially those with so much more or so much less than you. This guy never seemed to learn that trick.<p>Were I buying a round of drinks and everyone else got $5 drinks and this one guy wanted a $20 drink, I&#x27;d have been like, &quot;Ooh dude, can&#x27;t really swing that, mind getting something cheaper?&quot; If he does mind, just don&#x27;t buy his drink. He&#x27;s not going to get mad if you can&#x27;t afford to buy him a drink.<p>Buying rounds at all, though, that&#x27;s just insane if you need to keep a strict budget. It smacks of irresponsibility. If people are taking turns buying rounds, just opt out and pay for what you drink.
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paulpauper超过 9 年前
Maybe we need to come to terms with the fact that the &lt;a <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;greyenlightenment.com&#x2F;the-meritocracy-we-dont-understand" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;greyenlightenment.com&#x2F;the-meritocracy-we-dont-underst...</a> meritocracy is one stratified by IQ, with some having the cognitive potential to produce more merit than others, and those smarter people will tend to rise to the top socially and economically, too. But the benefit is we get new technologies, job creation, and higher standards of living. That doesn&#x27;t mean we need to do away with merit, but instead offer economic conditions for everyone to succeed within their cognitive potential. You can&#x27;t raise society and the economy by chopping down the smartest, the most successful, which is I think what Paul Graham was getting at. Class warfare is analogous to &lt;i&gt;Animal Farm&lt;&#x2F;i&gt; where the uprising makes things worse.
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crimsonalucard超过 9 年前
From the rich mans&#x27; perspective it&#x27;s empathy. From the poor mans&#x27; perspective it&#x27;s unfair and unjust and they feel a sort of jealousy for a person who extracts so much wealth from the economy.<p>We as humans are social creatures. We have evolved feelings of empathy and jealousy because it was effective for the survival of the social group.<p>The caveat is we&#x27;ve also evolved feelings that promote survival of the individual at the expense of the group. The task is to identify which feelings are aligned to self interest and which promote the survival of the group.<p>I would argue that feelings of jealousy, envy and vengeance do not promote survival of the individual. These feelings actually harm the individual when he acts alone. Instead I would say these feelings exist to promote more fair social behavior in big groups.<p>When wealth inequality becomes too extreme, poor people begin revolting.
andrewtbham超过 9 年前
I&#x27;m unsure how this anecdote proves anything about a correlation between empathy and wealth.<p>Whether you are rich or poor, you can have empathy. If you&#x27;re interested in empathy, I suggest you watch this brenee brown video. The video may seem anecdotal but she has done a lot of research about shame and vulnerability and... having read her books, money is not something that comes up in the research.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=1Evwgu369Jw" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=1Evwgu369Jw</a>
lambdasquirrel超过 9 年前
[Shameless plug. I&#x27;d tried to write about this as well.]<p><i>We got into this journey for humble reasons: So that we don’t have to worry about surviving. So that we could take care of things once and for all.</i><p><i>What does it mean then, if that is what’s really disconnecting? This cheap sense of comfort, and not having to care about unfairness?</i><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;medium.com&#x2F;@pierre.flying.squirrel&#x2F;on-inequality-1e74c6bfe8be#.jemx5x49z" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;medium.com&#x2F;@pierre.flying.squirrel&#x2F;on-inequality-1e7...</a>
daodedickinson超过 9 年前
Is it bad that we don&#x27;t empathize with the Sentinelese? If they knew about us they would feel worse because all of their comparisons, all of their sensations and evaluations would change. The problem is that the poor cannot sense the presence of the rich without immense pain. Neither redistribution, nor empathy are as palliative as ignorance in this case.
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lukasm超过 9 年前
I think poor people hate wealthy not only because of corruption (use money to get power or get away with a crime) and lack of empty, but because they could do MORE <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;blog.jaibot.com&#x2F;the-copenhagen-interpretation-of-ethics&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;blog.jaibot.com&#x2F;the-copenhagen-interpretation-of-ethi...</a>
crimsonalucard超过 9 年前
Make no mistake even as a moral problem the wealth gap isn&#x27;t just about empathy. The wealth gap is unjust, unfair and immoral.<p>Fairness implies that the wealth you generate as an individual is equivalent to the wealth you earn and own.<p>Right now 1% of the population owns 50% of the worlds wealth.<p>For 1% of the world to own 50% of the worlds wealth implies that 1% of the world generated 50% of the worlds&#x27; wealth.<p>It is not physically possible for a fraction of the human population to generate half the worlds&#x27; wealth. There is no reality where this makes sense. Thus for 1% of the population to own 50% of the worlds wealth, the 1% must obtain wealth generated by other people.<p>A common example of how this happens is through the ownership of a corporation. As an owner you own all the wealth generated by people who work for you. As owner you can do zero work, yet extract the wealth generated by hundreds of employees.<p>Owners essentially pay people less wealth than the wealth they generate. There is no circumstance where people will explicitly agree to such a transaction when given other choices.<p>It is fundamentally immoral and unfair to own wealth you did not produce or generate. This is not a question of empathy, it is a question of fundamental human rights.
jtth超过 9 年前
It&#x27;s the wealth gap. Next.
paulpauper超过 9 年前
People who are rich should not have to prove they are sufficiently empathetic. There&#x27;s a saying, &#x27;offence is taken, not given&#x27;.
cryoshon超过 9 年前
A few comments:<p>&quot;If the most successful people are becoming more effective and the least successful remain consistently ineffectual then you get a divergence in wealth. If the baseline is zero and the top line goes up then the two of them diverge.&quot;<p>The author&#x27;s mistake here is to assume &quot;being more effective&quot; has any real bearing on who is the most successful; random chance providing a substantial push in the right direction and then post-facto narratives denying chance are far more likely. Environmental factors increase exposure to upside of chance while minimizing the downside risk. Therefore, rich white people are typically thought of as the &quot;most successful&quot; people because they were born to a similar demographic which ensured they would land in an okay spot.<p>&quot;Is it really such an issue if a few people get rich so a lot of people can wealthy?&quot;<p>The &quot;lot of people&quot; aren&#x27;t get wealthy. Most people are getting less wealthy while the very richest are getting substantially more wealthy. By and large, nobody is &quot;getting rich&quot; so much as &quot;getting richer&quot;. As someone else said, &quot;a rising tide lifts all boats, but most people can&#x27;t afford a boat, so they drown.&quot;<p>&quot;I’ve never met a wealthy person that hates the poor but I’m shocked by the number of poor(er) people I know who hate the wealthy. I never really understand why since they’ve never obviously suffered at the rich’s hands. But then it something doesn’t have to be obviously bad to add up. It just has to be occasional, careless or callous and over time it accumulates.&quot;<p>Ah, an out-of-touch comment by a rich man; the poor &quot;hate&quot; the rich because they frequently seem as though they are from a different and better planet, and they really think that it would be much better if all the poors could just move to that planet gracefully, like they did. After all, &quot;I did it so anyone can do it.&quot; Completely and self-servingly ignoring the reality of wildly different starting conditions while subtly implying that their final superiority is some sort of inherent Aryan guarantee.<p>Additionally, the poor do obviously suffer at the rich&#x27;s hands, though perhaps they don&#x27;t see it this way: bank overdraft charges, paychecks on prepaid cards, more scrutiny and arrests for trivial offenses from law enforcement, increasing rents, outrageously expensive and ineffective health insurance, etc.<p>Anyways, just to put this topic directly to bed, the wealth gap is actually bad, and the lack of empathy that the rich have for the poor is a historical fact rather than an issue itself. The IMF is against wealth inequality and has detailed how and why in depth: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.imf.org&#x2F;external&#x2F;pubs&#x2F;ft&#x2F;sdn&#x2F;2015&#x2F;sdn1513.pdf" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.imf.org&#x2F;external&#x2F;pubs&#x2F;ft&#x2F;sdn&#x2F;2015&#x2F;sdn1513.pdf</a> and to be blunt, they know better than any of us here. The bottom line is that, as the report says, &quot;Societies with greater income inequality experience slower and less stable economic growth.&quot; Even the capitalists have to get on board with solving the problem of inequality when it&#x27;s framed that way.
ilaksh超过 9 年前
The biggest problem is the false belief that success is based on merit. This leads to classism. Classism is just as bad as a caste system, but the meritocracy myth makes it harder to take down.
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tomp超过 9 年前
&gt; It doesn&#x27;t matter to me at all that Bill Gates has more money than God, because he&#x27;s empathetic to people who aren&#x27;t as rich and aren&#x27;t as great as he is,<p>I&#x27;m glad he learned empathy in his old age; but keep in mind that he was ruthless, manipulative, exploitative, and caused <i>a lot</i> of long-term damage throughout most of his working life.<p><i>That&#x27;s</i> the problem I have with the &quot;rich&quot; - our system (and lack of government oversight&#x2F;enforcement) enables and encourages <i>evil</i>, as long as it makes profit.
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lintiness超过 9 年前
there&#x27;s no reason to believe that wealth destroys one&#x27;s empathy. i can think of numerous examples of the exact opposite (bill gates, etc.)
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