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San Francisco Bubble

315 点作者 thelarry超过 9 年前

70 条评论

mbesto超过 9 年前
This is why the free market is so great.<p>1. Everything too expensive? Good, don&#x27;t live here, eventually enough people will leave to drive all of the costs back to other market norms.<p>2. Dumb startups? Good, they will fail, people won&#x27;t be able to afford to live here and they&#x27;ll leave.<p>3. People are spoiled? Uber is cheaper and more convenient in some cases than taking the local transportation. When people stop taking public transportation because it&#x27;s fundamentally broken (ps - it&#x27;s awful in SF) then it will force government organizations to re-think their planning.<p>4. Bad engineers? Yup, I&#x27;ve met some of them. They&#x27;ll eventually leave too when the system weeds them out.<p>I too think it&#x27;s weird here, but since I do enjoy my life in the Bay area enough, I&#x27;m happy to wait for the market to correct to normalcy. The people who are here just to chase the &quot;me too&#x27;s&quot; will soon be forgotten.<p>EDIT: I should probably clarify my overall sentiment. People who come to SF and complain that this situation is less than ideal have the freedom to simply choose not to play. The cost of living is driven by the simple laws of supply and demand. Speak with your wallets, not with your mouths.
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philfrasty超过 9 年前
&quot;Engineers are particularly spoiled. They can take an arbitrary sabbatical from work...&quot; &lt;---&gt; (on the about page) &quot;...Currently a principal engineer at AppNexus on sabbatical...&quot; ???
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themagician超过 9 年前
Money has been close to free for years. As the interest rate ticks up everything will change. It&#x27;s already starting to. More expensive borrowing, less leverage, and better places to put dollars than venture.<p>The one thing I really agree with though is the funny thing that happens here with the word &quot;engineer&quot;. If you can make a website you somehow qualify for the title software engineer. By Bay Area standards, I myself am director level engineering talent—and I get offers for such all the time—and yet I don&#x27;t even remotely consider myself an engineer. Because I can make a website? Because I know a little python, ruby and node? Come on. I&#x27;ve never written anything that lives in a real production environment and you want to hire me as your director of engineering? Are you mad?
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ejcx超过 9 年前
&gt; Everything is too expensive. I’m from New York...<p>I take issue with this one. It&#x27;s entirely possible to live frugally while living IN San Francisco. I moved here about 7 months ago and expected it to be incredibly expensive but it hasn&#x27;t been the case (beyond rent).<p>The author mentions $15 crappy local IPAs but I&#x27;ve actually never found a beer for this price. There is no shortage of $7 craft beers you can buy at a brewery or bar, no shortage of Trader Joe&#x27;s with the same prices as, say, Charlottesville VA.<p>I&#x27;ve found that other than rent, the prices are comparable to other places. If you get a salad delivered on postmates or uber eats or something then that&#x27;s what you&#x27;re paying for. That isn&#x27;t SF.<p>I think a lot of people are living a lifestyle where they have no problem paying for stuff like a delivered salad when they can walk next door, or uber instead of taking the bus, but lots of people are walking and grocery shopping and not paying those prices.
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pyrrhotech超过 9 年前
Can we stop the whole &quot;engineers make a lot of money&quot; spiel? Most engineers make between 120 - 160k in SF, where the median household income is 104k. They don&#x27;t make more than product managers, project managers or even many BART operators. See <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.mercurynews.com&#x2F;salaries&#x2F;bay-area" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.mercurynews.com&#x2F;salaries&#x2F;bay-area</a> if you don&#x27;t believe me. Sure, they make a bit more than average, but if that&#x27;s the standard of &quot;a lot of money&quot;, you have a totally skewed view of how capitalism works and the wealth gap in the US. Very few engineers are members of the capitalist class, commonly referred to as the 1% that own 40% of the country&#x27;s assets. Making 50% more than the median is not a lot. Making 500% more is a lot.
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YuriNiyazov超过 9 年前
&quot;They can take an arbitrary sabbatical from work, they cannot be told no or reprimanded, and they make so much money that they can just take random breaks from employment to chill.&quot;<p>I have yet to hear a convincing argument why this is a bad thing.
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avitzurel超过 9 年前
&quot;There are thousands of dumb startups&quot; This.<p>Most of the blame is cast on the big companies (Twitter, Facebook etc) but the reality is that there are hundreds of smaller companies choosing SF and the valley in general.<p>And again I say, until companies allow people to work from <i>wherever</i> this will be fueled more.<p>Finding talent is getting ever more difficult already, if you expand your search area to the entire country&#x2F;world there&#x27;s a better chance you&#x27;d find people no?
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wesleyfsmith超过 9 年前
I have to say that I didn&#x27;t really understand the perspective the writer was coming from. It kind of felt like he just wanted to finger wag at SF.<p>&gt; Everything is too expensive.<p>Just normal supply and demand economics. This happens all the time all over the world when lots of high earning people suddenly move to an area.<p>&gt; There are thousands of dumb startups.<p>Yup. And most of them will die. And some of them will become AirBnB. The problem is, it&#x27;s extremely difficult to predict which is which. That&#x27;s just the nature of searching for &quot;the next big thing&quot;. I&#x27;d rather live in a world where there are lots of dumb companies so that the few exceptional ones have a chance to get started.<p>&gt; People are spoiled.<p>No, people in SF value their time, as it&#x27;s the only resource you can&#x27;t get more of. I absolutely understand why someone with the money would have groceries deliver for them. It&#x27;s more efficient. The locally sourced and organic thing does feel a bit silly though, although I would say that&#x27;s a fad you see everywhere.<p>&gt; There cannot be these many quality engineers.<p>I&#x27;m sure there are some bad engineers there. But SF has a massive pool for exceptional talent, and while I&#x27;m sure not every engineer is extremely high quality, I have no doubt that a substantial amount of top tier programmers are in SF. If the majority of programmers weren&#x27;t making meaningful contributions to their companies, I don&#x27;t think you would see them being compensated the way they are.
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encoderer超过 9 年前
tldr: Guy comes to SF, figures it all out in a weekend, sees things that I&#x27;ve never seen living here like &#x27;dozens of co-working facilities in 10 blocks&#x27;. Here&#x27;s my take: The concentration of wealth here still pales to NYC area, Google, Apple, Facebook alone are giant money funnels from the whole world into this area, and there are more funnels being built every day. Not saying it will or should go up in a straight line, but personally I&#x27;d bet on the trend.
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robbyking超过 9 年前
A couple quick notes from a longtime (20 year) San Franciscan:<p><i>Everything is too expensive</i><p>Things are expensive, yes, but more so in neighborhoods with high concentrations of new residents, namely SOMA and most of the Mission. You can get an IPA at nearly any of the bars in my neighborhood for $4, and coffee for $2.<p><i>There are thousands of dumb startups</i><p>I agree 100%. I&#x27;ve had the (figurative) banana hammock recruiter call me, too, and it&#x27;s shocking to me how many people are repeating the mistakes of the 90&#x27;s boom.<p><i>People are spoiled</i><p>Don&#x27;t confuse a small yet vocal minority with the City as a whole. There are still plenty of starving artists, passionate musicians and dedicated activists; they just live in different neighborhoods than they did 5 or 10 years ago.<p><i>There cannot be these many quality engineers</i><p>Again, I agree 100%. During the 90&#x27;s dotcom boom I worked with a web developer who literally didn&#x27;t know how to write HTML; all his code was copied from other parts of the project. It&#x27;s not surprising that it&#x27;s happening again this time around, but as mbesto wrote, they&#x27;ll eventually leave too when the system weeds them out.<p>All in all, most of these are things long-time San Franciscans dislike about our city, too. What&#x27;s left to be seen is whether or not enough of the people who made San Francisco a desirable place to live can afford to live here once the tech market cools off.
crabasa超过 9 年前
This is probably the worst item I&#x27;ve ever seen rise to #1 on Hacker News. It&#x27;s poorly written, is based completely on a weekend worth of anecdotes and makes several claims that seem impossible ($15 IPAs).
gravity13超过 9 年前
Re: There cannot be these many quality engineers.<p>I&#x27;ve seen grads come out of boot camps that are better programmers than people who have been programming for years. They might lack the knowledge, but they&#x27;ve got good sense and hustle, and at the end of the day, I&#x27;d take that over a stubborn engineer who looks like they&#x27;re gonna age into a Dilbert comic.
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njudah超过 9 年前
Not withstanding everything else, I&#x27;ve lived in this town for years, and always found it easy to find a reasonably priced beer.
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emcq超过 9 年前
Kind of a weird swipe at bootcamps comparing them to devry. The top bootcamps produce junior engineers better than the average undergrad with more work experience (although in a different field such as mechanical engineering or accounting). Many have STEM degrees from places like Berkeley, Stanford, UMich, UW, UCLA, Harvard, etc. I&#x27;d prefer to have their weirdness to the vanilla CS undergrad anyday, and their unique perspectives add meaningful contributions to a team.
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csomar超过 9 年前
We have been hearing and reading similarly titled articles for the last couple years. This, however, is the most stupid one in my opinion.<p>What the author describe is a lavish (according to him) standard of living, judged startups to be dumb by their name&#x2F;description (but they got investor money). He concludes that we are in a bubble.<p>Here are the metrics that matter:<p>* Are current startups generating enough money to pay salaries.<p>* Are current startups raising enough funds to make ends meet.<p>* Are there new startups funded.<p>* Is the number of exits&#x2F;IPOs higher to create new millionaires.<p>* Is the number of failed startups higher to create new unemployed engineers and free capacity.<p>If someone is interested to know these numbers, maybe finance me for a couple months of research and get the right facts.
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minimaxir超过 9 年前
Looks like this week is &quot;Maybe Startups Aren&#x27;t Inherently Great&quot; week on Hacker News. :p<p>That being said, the number of startups in San Francisco is fine as long as there is corrective balance. At the least, startups which are failing will die faster due to rent alone.
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nugget超过 9 年前
It&#x27;s a gold rush. Nothing new. Fun to watch once you have the context to understand what is happening.
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skewart超过 9 年前
I can see where this guy is coming from. Though he&#x27;s obviously exaggerating things by a mile.<p>SF is pretty ridiculous in a lot of ways. But I would take an SF as ridiculous as if everything he said were exactly true over one where there weren&#x27;t any truth to it. Through all that froth does come actual creativity and innovation. The banana hammock delivery disrupters will fizzle in due time. The people who got inspired by all the energy and potential and decided to build a VR product that revolutionizes medicine will survive. I&#x27;d rather see a lot of false positives than risk a couple of false negatives. And besides, it makes for an endless supply of entertaining stories for people aren&#x27;t from here.
daenz超过 9 年前
I&#x27;ve never lived in SF, but I&#x27;ve talked to companies out there over the years. Then I look at a cost of living calculator and rent prices and quickly write it off.<p>The place sounds like a magnet for talent, no doubt. But the flip side of that is, everyone going to SF leaves other locations talent-starved and willing to be <i>very</i> accommodating.
rdlecler1超过 9 年前
The guy makes some good points, and there does seem to be a lot of questionable startups, but it&#x27;s not like they&#x27;re tapping into public funds. Somewhere, somehow, some angel investor thought that it was a good team and a good idea and they were happy to part with their money. It&#x27;s better that we live in a more optimistic world than one where every crazy idea is a bad idea.<p>However, how is taking Uber to work every day &#x27;spoiled&#x27;? I bet the guys owns a car where he is from and spends significantly more on monthly transportation than I do. For $4 more than a bus, I get point to point pick up and drop off, and save about 40 minutes of my time (which I can use to go work out in the mornings).<p>And some others have figured out that it makes sense to spend $20 on grocery delivery rather than spending 90 minutes doing it yourself if you&#x27;re working 60-80 hours per week and make more than $20&#x2F;hour. To be sure, a lot of people work long and hard. They make certain sacrifices but just because they are not the same sacrifices that the author would make it doesn&#x27;t mean they&#x27;re bad.
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gtrubetskoy超过 9 年前
In Austrian business cycle theory, this phenomenon is known as <i>malinvestment</i>, see <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;wiki.mises.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Malinvestment" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;wiki.mises.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Malinvestment</a>, there are some historical bubble examples there.<p>The general idea, as I understand it, is that if someone invests and makes a ton of money, then other investors come in trying to do something similar to make a lot of money too, only what they are investing in is no good. But all the money creates a temporary illusion of an economic boom, which is what has been happening in the S.F. Bay area for some time now.<p>I&#x27;m old enough to remember the .com bust quite well. At the time the &quot;irrational exuberance&quot; (as Greenspan&#x2F;Shiller dubbed it) made perfect sense, and the ideas were fundamentally sound, the problem was that investors did not understand that it would take another 10-15 years to get to ubiquitous Internet, and the impatient ones got burned when the bubble burst.
tomasien超过 9 年前
According to the about page, the author is an engineer at a startup and is on sabbatical. That feels weird given the criticisms leveled in the piece.<p>FWIW I live in New York and prefer it massively to SV, but I mean....
devsquid超过 9 年前
LOL, you can tell this article touches on something sensitive from the reaction to it on HackerNews. Its a pretty accurate description of SF, I just doubt NY is any different.
mikeryan超过 9 年前
Hmm.. Here&#x27;s Rosamunde&#x27;s beer list plenty of $6 IPAs..<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.beermenus.com&#x2F;places&#x2F;1609-rosamunde-sausage-grill-mission" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.beermenus.com&#x2F;places&#x2F;1609-rosamunde-sausage-gril...</a>
DannyBee超过 9 年前
I&#x27;m surprised he didn&#x27;t have the $16 artisanal salad delivered to him by one of the 37 delivery services.<p>This is pretty much the only place i know of where people are okay with paying $30+ total for a salad and think it&#x27;s normal
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caffeineninja超过 9 年前
Written exactly like someone who visited SF from NYC for a few days. The pen is dripping with poison and vitriol.
supergeek133超过 9 年前
I&#x27;ve tried to have this conversation with many people on that coast, and there was even a panel at TechCrunch about it.<p>&quot;Do you make your startup people eat more ramen, or do you provide more funding?&quot;<p>As costs keep going up, people STILL think they have to move to SF to get funding or find talent. Yet there is plenty of talent or ideas in other places but the money doesn&#x27;t move, the dumb part is the VC dollar will go farther in other places.<p>So who&#x27;s job is it to prompt the move? The idea makers or the money providers?
scorpion032超过 9 年前
Does anybody know of any major open source contributor that lives in SF?<p>I used to be active in the Python&#x2F;Django community earlier and am getting involved in the JS-React-Redux community. Not only do most people live outside SF, they live in a remote place that you wouldn&#x27;t have heard about.<p>Software, good software is creative and creativity needs serendipity. The pressure to meet the next funding round criteria or to get an Uber through the traffic hearing my next track not making eye contact with my uber-pooler isn&#x27;t the best frame of mind conducive to creativity.<p>I&#x27;m sure a lot of top CEOs and the top guys in select areas have a great social circle - smartest people who they eat&#x2F;hangout with, which is very good. But there are also a lot of me-toos, for whom just living in SF is the thing they are achieving that feed their egos.
azerty1超过 9 年前
interesting op is on a sabbatical himself<p>&gt; Currently a principal engineer at AppNexus on sabbatical, I am trying to have a new post every day.
wambotron超过 9 年前
Who cares? If you&#x27;re not part of the scene there, why does it matter to you? If those people weren&#x27;t in &quot;silly&quot; startups, they&#x27;d probably end up in silly corporate roles. Or even worse, they&#x27;d be unemployed and be another strain on the current system.<p>There are a lot of ideas you may find silly but others find interesting enough to spend their working hours to make a success. If you only focus on finances, tons of them will fail. If you look at the experience they&#x27;ll have doing it, I&#x27;m sure some of them will find it was a success.<p>I&#x27;ve worked at a couple startups and I&#x27;ve worked at some big corporations. There are bad coders everywhere. There are bad ideas everywhere. There are also a lot of jealous people who apparently get bent out of shape because people who are not the best engineer ever are making more money than them and getting to take time off arbitrarily.<p>Instead of focusing on how much you think their startup is stupid, or how they shouldn&#x27;t get time off because they&#x27;re not as good as you (based on who knows what), why not just focus on what you have, what you do, and what you like? Stop living against them and live for yourself.
swang超过 9 年前
nothing against the author but it seems like he is painting a very wide brush with something he&#x27;s seen for 3? days.<p>i certainly have never taken ubers everyday to work even though i could probably(?) afford to do so. seems like an expensive daily habit though.<p>i actually live in the city where it&#x27;s not some huge loft in fidi&#x2F;downtown. good for anyone who can get their groceries sent up to their room but i&#x27;m not sure how close to the norm that is. tech workers are all across the board in terms of how they live, how much they get paid and how willing they are to fetch their own groceries.<p>i live on the first floor of a older apartment complex, but i have to walk down a hill to fetch my groceries. i do sometimes use one of the gazillion food delivery services to eat dinner though.<p>anyways i would say this is similar to someone who goes to ny, visits the financial district in manhattan for 3 days and then proclaims, &quot;everyone in ny is rich! of course they can afford all that housing! they&#x27;re so stuck up! why are the cabbies so rude? why are new yorkers so rude?&quot;
uglysexy超过 9 年前
I think a good indication of a bubble is measuring the IT job market using Craiglist and Dice job postings.<p>I&#x27;d like to ask you all about what you&#x27;ve experienced &amp; seen on Craiglist and Dice that would give you an idea on how good or bad the IT job market in San Francisco (and the Bay Area in general) is or was. I hear conflicting stories of qualified people not able to find jobs after a year of searching (like the SOAP architect below) and on the flip side, of companies not able to find people (the so-called &#x27;IT talent shortage&#x27;).<p>I used both websites on &amp; off since the late 90s to find contract &amp; permanent full-time jobs. Back then at the height of the dot-coms, the Dice home page showed 120,000+ jobs, right after the crash (2001-2003) that number fell to around 20,000-30,000. Now it&#x27;s around 80,000.<p>On Craigslist, at the dot com height, the Software section for the Bay Area (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;sfbay.craigslist.org&#x2F;search&#x2F;sof" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;sfbay.craigslist.org&#x2F;search&#x2F;sof</a>) had so many job postings per day that the list of postings for that day would spill over to the next page (there are 100 listings per page). A year &amp; a half ago (late 2014) there was a good amount of postings and I got a frenzy of replies when I contacted them. Now, there&#x27;s only a handful of postings per day.<p>I think it&#x27;d be good to get an idea of SF&#x2F;SV IT job market&#x27;s fluctuation over the years by compiling these data points. I did a Google search for charts with these data points but couldn&#x27;t find any. If any of you used these two sites anytime from the late 90s to today and remember the # of postings for that specific date or time period, please post. Ideally, month to month data with high interest on data points from 1999-2003 (dot-com bubble) and 2006 to today (credit bubble).
tyre超过 9 年前
The talent issue is particularly acute.<p>If you&#x27;re mature and hardworking, I have no problem with you taking PTO whenever you need it or not committing to hard deadlines. But those are earned privileges based on trust and a history of delivering.<p>It is so hard to hire software engineers and there are tons of them. Bootcamps are not the answer. It is not a quantity problem, it is a quality problem.
lucio超过 9 年前
The problem is that you never know which one of the &quot;silly&quot; startups will succeed. ¿How about a startup disrupting the &quot;large&quot; market of air-mattress renting to complete strangers?.... mmmm... Let&#x27;s toss a breakfast in... That&#x27;s is, let&#x27;s call it: &quot;Air Bed and breakfast&quot;... it is silly?
ctulek超过 9 年前
I don&#x27;t think an engineer being able to take sabbatical or paid well is something to label engineers as spoiled. As long as work ethic is there, this is actually what an employee in any profession should get.<p>That people are paid here well is a result of the huge imbalance of wealth in the world is another discussion topic.
duren超过 9 年前
&gt; People are spoiled. A friend of mine takes an uber to and from work every day, and apparently that is fairly common.<p>Hard to take any of this seriously. Lots of people regularly taxi to work in large cities and I cannot imagine how it&#x27;s indicative of a bubble. Author seems too emotional about such an assertion.
svhoapres超过 9 年前
No one wants to &quot;throw this out there&quot; but I will.<p>SV has been overpriced for decades and it is only the importation of CHEAP h1b labor that has allowed the growth to continue.<p>You know something is a miss when you build ever and ever more future slums being 4+ story apartment buildings resulting in h1bs stuffed 12+ into an apartment paying $3K+ or even more for a 1BR apartment.<p>Americans won&#x27;t live like that. Or so I hope.<p>If you didn&#x27;t have h1bs then the jobs most likely would have gone to cheaper parts of the country as the wage costs would have started to rise to levels such that the products couldn&#x27;t be developed here.<p>Works for me.<p>We have (or had) a choice of allowing IT to be offshored &quot;like everything else&quot; or wreck Silicon Valley making it into a (future) slum.<p>We made the wrong choice.
matzipan超过 9 年前
It still shocks me that Europe hasn&#x27;t yet built a response to SF. Sure, London&#x27;s a tech hub, but not anywhere close to SF.<p>Eastern europe has a lot of talented engineers, but lacks capital and know-how on building an international business, places are cheap to live in and so on.
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angryasian超过 9 年前
The most ironic thing about this article is that it sounds like he&#x27;s complaining about tall the niceties of living in SF but he himself works at an ad tech company and is currently on sabbatical and wants to write a new blog entry once a day. WTF???
dap超过 9 年前
I don&#x27;t necessary disagree with any of the claims, but it has a very &quot;Old Man Yells at Cloud&quot; sound to it: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;i.imgur.com&#x2F;91sn32Q.jpg?fb" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;i.imgur.com&#x2F;91sn32Q.jpg?fb</a>
malandrew超过 9 年前
One of the best and most underrated thing about all these crappy startups? It gives a lot of people the opportunity to learn valuable skills on someone else&#x27;s dime. Those that are good engineers in crappy startups eventually migrate to the unicorns. The shitty startups may not go anywhere, but they allow a lot of young people to accumulate skills that they can take with them to companies that actually need that talent.<p>Without the shitty startups acting as free training wheels, the unicorns would have a much harder time finding quality talent.
sixQuarks超过 9 年前
Regarding dumb startups - I can&#x27;t wait for the coming collapse. There are lots of talented developers&#x2F;designers working on dumb startups, which makes it very difficult for me to find good people to work with.
colmvp超过 9 年前
There might be a bubble, but extremely limited anecdata isn&#x27;t enough to prove it.<p>Who cares if people are spending money to get shit done for them that they don&#x27;t want to personally do (laundry, groceries). As long as they can pay for it and are utilizing hours to what they actually want to do in life I don&#x27;t see the harm.<p>And expensive food exists in most major cities.<p>There might be some truth to the title, but the article lacked the data to support any of it. I&#x27;m flabbergasted that it got upvoted on the frontpage of HN.
outworlder超过 9 年前
While I agree with the sentiment, the attitude of the post is appalling.<p>&gt; This reminds me of the first dot com bubble where people with degrees from devry were joining companies and making big salaries<p>Why do you care about where people got their degrees from? What does that have to do with commanding a high salary or not? If the people seem to be overpaid for what they do, fine. But that has nothing to do with their degrees. Or even their abilities.
kelvin0超过 9 年前
Well all we need is to look at historical facts to understand what is going on in SF: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;The_Mansions_of_the_Gods" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;The_Mansions_of_the_Gods</a><p>Seriously though, this movie does touch many aspects related to gentrification and what happens when supply stays the same but demands spikes sharply ... chuckles all around.
someear超过 9 年前
There are lots of dumb startups. But a handful of these dumb startups are going to turn into big, meaningful companies that change some aspect of people&#x27;s lives, hopefully in a positive way (at a minimum they will offer employment). Because of that, it&#x27;s worth putting up with these &quot;dumb&quot; ones because 0.1% of them will pay off the other ones.<p>Companies evolve, and some don&#x27;t stay dumb forever.
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mwnz超过 9 年前
Ugh, don&#x27;t feed the troll.
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bobby_9x超过 9 年前
I think the problem is that many of the business models of these startups is basically taking VC money and shuffling it around.<p>I&#x27;ve been to many startup competitions in the last couple of years and most of the winners have no business model.<p>For instance, last year, the winner was a startup that was &quot;Twitter with 255 character limit&quot;. It think it was awarded $20,000
alphonse23超过 9 年前
I agree, things are probably too good to be true right now. I really don&#x27;t think it&#x27;s fair to blame engineers though. My only advice to people working in this industry is to save your money -- be sure to be keeping your money in an emergency fund of some kind incase something happens. That&#x27;s my best practical advice.
scelerat超过 9 年前
&gt; people with degrees from devry were joining companies and making big salaries<p>one of the best engineers I&#x27;ve ever worked with has a degree from DeVry. I know many great engineers who don&#x27;t have CS or engineering degrees. And I know plenty of dummies with lots of letters after their name.
davidw超过 9 年前
&gt; People are spoiled<p>I recall when I was in SF in 1999, limo after limo pulling up to what was a pretty ordinary club. I didn&#x27;t really care how people pissed their money away, but it seemed so bizarre and so detached from reality. I was glad to get out of there.
lubesGordi超过 9 年前
Part of the whole venture capital startup game is diversification if investment. VC&#x27;s expect a lot of their startups to fail (angel investors too), while a few grow and maybe if they are lucky one of them takes off.
leroy_masochist超过 9 年前
&gt; A company to “disrupt the banana hammock ordering process” cannot possibly do well yet someone invested money into it and it is paying employees.<p>Is this actually a real company and if so can someone post a link?
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wooptoo超过 9 年前
Replace San Francisco with London and your article is still valid.
yanilkr超过 9 年前
When you compare that to Detroit trouble, you will see that bubble is not that bad after all. All those overrated engineers will have connections and confidence.
bischofs超过 9 年前
I would rather have too many startups then not enough - I am from Detroit and we would love a more entrepreneurial environment and more investment capital.
ruok0101超过 9 年前
So its a bubble. What do you do about it? Move?
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gragas超过 9 年前
&gt;Every food item has to be locally sourced and organic, which seems more important than taste and quality.<p>Ummm... that&#x27;s the point?
jerf超过 9 年前
Next up on TechCrunch, &quot;The &#x27;Bubble&#x27; Bubble: What It Means To You When It Pops&quot;
miseg超过 9 年前
&gt; People are spoiled.<p>I&#x27;ll extend that statement to any of us living the western lifestyle!
svhoapres超过 9 年前
The jobs are all going to h1bs working 168 hours a week for $300.
AlwaysBCoding超过 9 年前
Yes, there are a lot of dumb startups but I&#x27;m still not convinced this is a bad thing. Why does every 24-year old have to be changing the world?<p>Imagine you have a 2x2 matrix where the x-axis is positive value added to the world and the y-axis magnitude of impact. You want your job to be in the top right corner, high impact, high value added to the world but there&#x27;s two ways to get there. You could do something that has high value but low impact like working at a non-profit in DC helping with excel spreadsheets or whatever, you&#x27;re delivering value to the world but making a very small impact. The other approach is that you could learn how to build a large scalable system for delivering a solution to millions of people first. Maybe you&#x27;re making the 100th best photo sharing app and it will never add large value to the world, but you&#x27;re learning how to deliver impactful solutions you just need to figure out how to deliver real value. I&#x27;m not sure why there&#x27;s a bias against the second approach. I lived in DC for five years and most of my friends are doing less interesting things than my friends in SF. Someone who gets experience at a startup that builds interesting technology but never takes off could be the next CTO of a political campaign for all you know.<p>Also, it&#x27;s a complete myth that San Francisco is expensive to live in. You can leave cheap or expensive in any city. SF has a culture where being poor is totally cool. Everyone gets it, you&#x27;re in tech you&#x27;re an entrepreneur etc... There&#x27;s no pressure to go to nice restaurants for social status like there is in New York. I spend much less money in SF than I did living in DC just because of the lifestyle I&#x27;m living. Buying a house in SF is impossible due to the insane prices, but it&#x27;s really not that bad living in an apartment here.<p>I don&#x27;t think people are spoiled here, I think your perceptions are off. First, programming takes place entirely inside a persons head. Mental state is really important, and the 9-5 office job with a commute to and from the office every day doesn&#x27;t work very well for engineering. I like to break up my day into two halves. The first half of the day and the second half of the day, this gives me two discrete time periods where I can do work and I like to take a bike ride in between because I can think about the problems, and then not have to go to the gym later in the day. When I was working for a company in DC there was no way I could have left at 2:00 to take an hour bike ride, even if that&#x27;s how I work best. I think it&#x27;s ridiculous to say that people working in their optimal workflows makes them spoiled.<p>And again, it takes probably 3 years to become a high-quality engineer. So I&#x27;m not sure what you would want coding bootcamp graduates to do after 3 months, get together and talk about how hopeless life is? I&#x27;m glad that people are getting into the industry, the only way you&#x27;re going to get better is by getting real world experience. So what someone with 8-months experience isn&#x27;t a great engineer yet? By continuing to get better over the next couple years he will become a better engineer and then be able to add significant value to the world, I&#x27;m not sure why you would want to discourage developers from perfecting their craft. This would be like heckling a Med School student for not being a great doctor yet.
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svhoapres超过 9 年前
The jobs are taken by h1bs working 168 hours a week for $300.
varelse超过 9 年前
If you hate current day SF, you&#x27;ll looooovvve NYC...
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NDizzle超过 9 年前
I feel like the best reply to this is:<p>&quot;Well, yeah. So?&quot;
p4wnc6超过 9 年前
Didn&#x27;t Arcade Fire say this years ago?
m1117超过 9 年前
A bit dramatized, but the concept is good.
minimax超过 9 年前
<i>local IPAs are $15</i><p>Is that actually true?
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halis超过 9 年前
You should rename this thread California Bubble...
whybroke超过 9 年前
Please be aware that moving to the bay area for any reason other than fun will be a serious life mistake.<p>If you move to the bay area in your 20s, by the time you&#x27;re in your 40s you will have a specific knowledge of a fad language that is 20 years old. But even if you somehow keep up with new tech in your spare time, you will look 40 something and thus be nearly unemployable solely on those grounds.<p>And you simply will be unable to save any reasonable amount of money no mater how many beers you don&#x27;t drink. Like anyone else in the states, your sole savings would be home equity which you won&#x27;t have because you won&#x27;t be able to buy any kind of home in the few years your age makes you employable.<p>If in doubt, for those still in SF, determine the savings of your co workers in their 20s and 30s (who are now near then end of their employability), and whether they rent or own (good luck finding a 50 something coworker to ask). Be aware that you do not leave the bay area rich, you leave it because you can&#x27;t afford it. And be aware there are few middle aged and effectively no old people there. And beware that 45 is only half way to retirement age.
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