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How the Internet will disrupt higher education’s most valuable asset: Prestige

57 点作者 chewymouse超过 9 年前

21 条评论

WalterBright超过 9 年前
If I had attended Caltech remotely, I wouldn&#x27;t have lasted a semester. I had a lot of generous help from others, mostly fellow students, and sometimes a professor.<p>Besides, being around a pack of intelligent, highly motivated people (what their admissions select for) 24&#x2F;7 was incredibly fun. I mean, you&#x27;re around people who build CPUs out of 7400 ttl chips, people who build stereo equipment from scratch just because it&#x27;s fun, people who build a working railroad running through the dorms, and on and on. If you want to see what it was like, see the movie &quot;Real Genius&quot;, which was based on events at Caltech. The movie exaggerates, but not as much as you might think :-)<p>Edit: I also have to admit that the embarrassment of failing was a motivator that wouldn&#x27;t exist if I attended remotely, along with the shared camaraderie of working on and succeeding at something hard.
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cubano超过 9 年前
I&#x27;ve become more and more convinced over the years that &quot;higher education&quot; is much more about signalling and not-so-much about learning, although of course part of the signal is showing your ability to learn on demand and just &quot;show-up&quot; and do what you are told.<p>Of course, networking has always been a big part of <i>the benefit</i> being accepted to an elite university, so while I accept the learning part of it will be easily disrupted, I am not really convinced (yet) that the signalling and the networking can be replaced so easily.<p>[edits]
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roymurdock超过 9 年前
Title is misleading.<p><i>As the Internet chips away at the practical reasons for limiting the student population, the real reason Yale limits the size of its classes will become more obvious.</i><p>Decreased barriers to entry of getting a degree will draw attention to the fact that it is (and arguably always has been) 20% about what you learn, 80% about who you meet.<p>MOOCs are not going to disrupt prestige, they&#x27;re going to make it even more important as a signal in an increasingly noisy market.
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fiatmoney超过 9 年前
The real reason class sizes are limited isn&#x27;t to maintain an &quot;air of exclusivity&quot;, it&#x27;s because the social networks that allow kickbacks and mutual aid only work if they&#x27;re limited to a certain size. &quot;Prestige&quot; isn&#x27;t a naked payoff, it&#x27;s a proxy for access to that social network.
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lordCarbonFiber超过 9 年前
This author seems to think the value of prestige arises from nothing; as if the fact that someone can get through one class on open courseware means they are equally qualified as any other graduate. One quote in particular stuck with me &quot;few students are accepted to Yale but almost all graduate&quot;. What exactly did he expect? Why would admissions accept people they think are unlikely to be successful? The whole article is written as if candidates are chosen by a simple dice roll, uniformly taken across the population (mirroring those who now have access via the internet).<p>The value, from an employment standpoint at the very least, is not what you learned in school, but the reasons you were selected to participate in the community doing the learning. The elite institutions spend considerable time and expense collecting a curated group of top performers to a single location. From a creative and developmental perspective this is huge for the students. From a signalling perspective this huge for employers.<p>My prediction, perhaps as laughably misguided as I think this article is, is that the paridime shift will come from employers. As taboos against training wear away, and groups begin to see how much cheaper it can be to hire and train high school graduates the demand for college graduates will abate. This probably won&#x27;t effect the Columbias, or the Yales of the world, but will likely eliminate most of the hugely expensive less prestigious institutions.
dluan超过 9 年前
I don&#x27;t think the internet has quite figured out _prestige_. Twitter, BuzzFeed, Quora, Reddit, and even HN have certainly figured out popularity, network effects, and buzz, but I don&#x27;t think social networks can develop prestige, because there&#x27;s so much elasticity about your social network presence and where you spend your time.<p>Prestige is such an interesting phenomena, in that it&#x27;s a weird mix of purchasable brandname and non-purchasable exclusivity. I&#x27;m not even sure what the most prestigious website on the internet would be: wikipedia?
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hapless超过 9 年前
Everyone has always known that paying for an Ivy diploma means purchasing the prestige and connections required to enter America&#x27;s elite. The conceit that it was a superior education has always been, to some extent, a fig leaf.<p>MOOCs are tearing frantically at the fig leaves, but the underlying business model is entirely unharmed. The best students will still crawl over bodies to gain admittance. Tuitions will remain high. The alumni will still make extraordinary endowments.
praveenster超过 9 年前
Not entirely true. Granted, you might be able to gain a lot of knowledge via MOOCs, however, I feel that the experience of human interaction with other students and the professor cannot be replicated via the internet. Additionally, I think the issue of prestige is a self fulfilling prophecy in that good schools get bright students and the interaction between them increases the overall intellect of the student community in that school.
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fma超过 9 年前
As long as the good ol boy&#x27;s network exist - people will always want to go to Ivy League and other prestigious universities. It will continue till the top CEOss graduate from &quot;Southern New Hampshire University&quot;...and I doubt shareholders and board of directors want to nominate a CEO from &quot;Southern New Hampshire University&quot; so you probably want to be a founder.
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johngalt超过 9 年前
I&#x27;m seeing a large number of comments talking about the in person effects of traditional education. Not just as it relates to education, but also ongoing employment. The two issues seem to boil down to:<p>1. Social status signaling. Including networking among alumni.<p>2. An environment with interpersonal interactions among the top performers will push you further than working solo.<p>Rather than simply saying &quot;MOOCs don&#x27;t do 1&amp;2&quot;, we should phrase it as &quot;what will it look like when they do?&quot;. Clearly the internet can handle social status signaling. The internet can also organize groups around specific interests. There are unique social groups that exist now precisely because of the internet.<p>For now MOOCs are a web version of correspondence courses. Is that all they will ever be? I doubt it. If I had to bet on education 100 years from now, I&#x27;d expect it to look more like MOOCs than the traditional collegiate experience. Certainly there are gaps in what exists today, but I&#x27;d expect those gaps to close faster than traditional colleges will adjust.
WalterBright超过 9 年前
Online education is not new. Before the internet, you could get a college degree by taking correspondence courses. It&#x27;s how my grandfather got a degree (he was too poor for college). He liked it so much he became a salesman for the online courses, and met my grandmother through selling her mechanical engineering courses. (In 1920. Yes, there were women engineers then.)
noonespecial超过 9 年前
To successfully compete with the Ivy league, onlines will have to provide a way for their students to signal two things:<p>1) I&#x27;m the kind of person who <i>can</i> pay larger amounts of money than most for an education.<p>2) I know and am known by lots of people who fit into the group described by #1.<p>Until that happens I don&#x27;t think any ivy covered bricks are coming tumbling down any time soon.
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sknuds超过 9 年前
“The brick walls are there for a reason. The brick walls are not there to keep us out. The brick walls are there to give us a chance to show how badly we want something. Because the brick walls are there to stop the people who don’t want it badly enough. They’re there to stop the other people.” - Randy Pausch
zecho超过 9 年前
Thought I was reading The Onion for a moment. Nobody cites Frank Bruni as a source unironically, do they?<p>&gt;&quot;...it will be harder and harder for Yale to explain what it offers for all that money except a piece of paper that says you went to Yale.&quot;<p>Yale has been clear about that since roughly 1693.
rayiner超过 9 年前
I think it&#x27;s pretty funny that MOOC&#x27;s bought into the premise that the purpose of higher education was education. Seriously: what fraction of what you do on the job isn&#x27;t something you couldn&#x27;t have learned at a three-month company training course? Outside of highly specialized fields, it&#x27;s probably not much.<p>I think the universities understand a lot better than the MOOCs that the point was never that Stanford had education you can&#x27;t get elsewhere, but that it lets you tell people you went to Stanford and other people didn&#x27;t.
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stillsut超过 9 年前
I&#x27;d consider the #1 to #5 (out of 10,000 students) in Ng&#x27;s MachineLearning Coursera more compelling than &#x27;A&#x27; from his on-campus class.<p>So by making it a national competition, MOOCs have an advantage for those companies seeking high quality candidates.<p>Also, they deliver a more standardized training experience: Even if you took some interesting but non-conventional AI class at Harvey Mudd, it might be better for companies hiring junior devs to just know you&#x27;re competent at the basics from your online work.
Scoundreller超过 9 年前
I dream of the day when prestigious PGP private keys are sold because of the prestige associated with them.
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jrkelly超过 9 年前
YC is the only credible threat to elite higher education that I&#x27;ve seen come out of Silicon Valley.
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jimhefferon超过 9 年前
I checked a number of times. It seems that the article is from this week, but it sure reads like any number of articles from five or six years ago.<p>Just as a for instance, putting everyone in a MOOC proves to be more of a problem than it may at first seemed to some people.
jkyle超过 9 年前
I may be in a unique position in commenting on this phenomena. I graduated from a well regarded university as a undergraduate (too man) years ago and have been working in industry for approximately 12 years or so. As my career evolved, I realized I wanted to specialize and I&#x27;ve always appreciated the formality and rigors of school.<p>But all those things that happen over 12 years of working made returning for a masters infeasible e.g. wife, kids, an appreciation for meals that do not involve ramen noodles and hotdogs... About a year ago I had the opportunity to apply to Georgia Tech&#x27;s Online Master&#x27;s of Computer Science program (OMSCS).[1][2] I&#x27;m currently 1&#x2F;2 through the program.<p>I&#x27;ve taken online courses before and I consistently (2 or 3 times a year) attended local community college classes on various topics or refreshers. But I feel the OMSCS program is doing it differently and, largely, is &quot;getting it right&quot;. I&#x27;ll try to cover the most common critiques of MOOC&#x27;s and how I think OMSCS can, hopefully, serve as a model for other universities to expand into remote learning.<p>Attending a University is as much about the culture&#x2F;people&#x2F;experience as the raw knowledge<p>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<p>I completely agree. However, GATech&#x27;s program has made collaboration between students a priority. We&#x27;re given a lot of tools including weekly group video conferencing with TA&#x27;s, very active student forums, actively engaged&#x2F;participant professors and TA&#x27;s, and local study groups for students in the same general area. In some ways, I feel <i>even more</i> connected to professors than I did when on campus. Generally the professor was available in class, office hours, and through email. Email response was often spotty or too a few days. I get responses from a professor, TA, or student within a day if not within hours on the forums. Student provided answers often receive a &quot;+1&quot; by TA&#x27;s or professors or a correction&#x2F;clarification if that is needed.<p>However, it&#x27;s true that the &#x27;flow&#x27; of conversation is not as dynamic and as a consequence can be less engaging as in classroom settings given the delay of forum communication. Also, I&#x27;m sure the on campus students have access to many of these tools as well. For me personally, I was less likely to leverage the other tools if I&#x27;d already sat in class that day.<p>Recruiters and employers look for the &#x27;signal&#x27; that comes with a prestigious university program<p>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<p>I feel this is over played. MIT, Stanford, Yale, Harvard, Berkeley, etc. are obviously good schools. But anyone whose been interviewing and hiring for any amount of time knows they&#x27;re not guarantees and much more goes into a good employee than simply making it through a rigorous academic program. But you it does carry _some_ weight. Just not as much as many imply.<p>One of the reasons I selected this program is the degree rewarded is indistinguishable from their on campus degree. The &quot;signal&quot; this provides for students and employers is the university is willing to put their full faith and credit behind the education I&#x27;m purchasing. If MOOC&#x27;s are to succeed this is the only model that will work. Why should I pay the university if they insist on signaling that it is a lesser education through degree differentiation. If they are incapable of delivering the same rigor and quality, I&#x27;d rather just read a book or take a free course.<p>MOOC&#x27;s aren&#x27;t a threat to prestigious education, just community colleges and small schools<p>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<p>I&#x27;m not sure I agree. Community colleges are already very affordable. Georgia Tech is in the top 5 computer science programs in the country. That&#x27;s a high degree of prestige. If they can deliver on their promise, maintain the quality of students &amp; education their delivering, if they issue degrees indistinguishable from the on campus degrees, and if they can do so at higher volumes and good profit margins other high end universities <i>should</i> feel very threatened. Particularly since since the margins are quite large. All the tuition goes towards the professors, TA&#x27;s, and a smidgin of an amount toward infrastructure. And they can handle much larger student bodies.<p>That means more highly qualified STEM workers carrying your degree. Which incurs more prestige on your program and attracts more students...which you can actually accept if qualified.<p>1. <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.omscs.gatech.edu" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.omscs.gatech.edu</a><p>2. Full disclaimer: I work for AT&amp;T, a partner in the creation of the OMSCS program with Georgia Tech &amp; Udacity, though I had no involvement in that process other than benefitting as a student.
FiatLuxDave超过 9 年前
I think that the biggest effect of prestige in the college market is that it is a barrier to entry for new colleges and universities. Forget MOOCs for a second. Just think about new, regular colleges. If half the faculty of Harvard quit tomorrow and started a new university (say, &quot;New Cambridge University&quot;), accepting half the number of new students that Harvard did, even though the education would be obviously on par with a Harvard education, the new university still would not have the prestige of Harvard.<p>This effect is what is allowing the rent seeking behavior of administrators and contractors which is driving the increase in college costs [1]. The wages for professors, who provide the primary paid labor for the educational process, has not increased, and the move to reduce the cost of professors by switching to adjuncts has been extensively noted e.g. [2].<p>If professors felt free to simply start up a new college whenever they felt that the cost of administration was getting out of hand, they would be able to bid up the cost of their labor in step with the increase in tuition. But because the prestige effect is so strong, they have less power in the relationship than the administrators. Note that professors with star power reputations do not have this dynamic, as they have prestige of their own.<p>I think that MOOCs may be the wrong direction to look for a solution. Prestige is strongly correlated with the age of an institution. The Ivy League was originally called such because the buildings were old enough to have ivy covering their walls, unlike the newer colleges of the time. It is also correlated with the accomplishments associated with an institution. A MOOC is just asking for trouble in the prestige department! Just look at how people with a Georgia Tech online masters have to explain it as being equal in worth to an in-person experience. You don&#x27;t need to explain to your mom why Yale is close to Harvard in prestige. Maybe someday that will change, but it&#x27;s not an answer to the problem today.<p>Instead, a more low-tech but more likely to work answer is to restore control of the prestige to the faculty and take that power away from the administrators. This may take the form of internal changes to the existing universities, or maybe things will get bad enough that there will be a mass exodus of professors starting their own colleges.<p>[1]<a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.washingtonmonthly.com&#x2F;magazine&#x2F;septemberoctober_2011&#x2F;features&#x2F;administrators_ate_my_tuition031641.php?page=all" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.washingtonmonthly.com&#x2F;magazine&#x2F;septemberoctober_2...</a><p>[2]<a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.thenation.com&#x2F;article&#x2F;why-is-college-so-expensive-if-professors-are-paid-so-little&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.thenation.com&#x2F;article&#x2F;why-is-college-so-expensive...</a>