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German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens

520 点作者 temp超过 9 年前

30 条评论

brakmic超过 9 年前
I doubt they have capable programmers working for them. A few years ago the Chaos Computer Club discovered the &#x27;predecessor&#x27; version of this State-Trojan (&quot;Bundestrojaner&quot;). This version was a perfect example what happens when you _want_ to have such a software but your programmers _suck_ at even most basic things (like establishing a working traffic-encryption).<p>Here&#x27;s the video (in German): <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;zAV-hTpperU" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;zAV-hTpperU</a><p>We shouldn&#x27;t fear their &#x27;capabilities&#x27; but rather their lack of knowledge that&#x27;ll ultimately lead to &#x27;open systems&#x27; which can later be exploited by other criminals.<p>In fact, our State (I&#x27;m from Germany) supports criminal activities by using a crappy software that&#x27;ll crack the basic security measures of Windows.<p>I doubt they have any professional Linux programmers working for them. Working for the State also means earning only a fraction of what you can earn in the free market.<p>I do not fear the State but criminals who&#x27;ll sooner or later exploit holes created by our &quot;security agencies&quot;.
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jacobrobbins超过 9 年前
This is the correct path forward to move society into a digital era. It follows the well established principle that the state uses force in legally proscribed ways to maintain security. Known as the “monopoly of the legitimate use of force”, this is a core concept of modern law (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Monopoly_on_violence" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Monopoly_on_violence</a>). This concept carries over cleanly from the past into the digital era. In this case govt security forces are committing digital violence in the same way that criminals do. Same thing as when the SWAT team breaks down a door, just a digital version.<p>The alternative is that the government co-opts manufacturers so that government agencies can carry out security tasks without using digital violence. That’s what the FBI is seeking in the Apple case and it is a much worse direction for society because it challenges the existence of strong security in our increasingly digital society.<p>Note that the legitimate use of force is done according to law. As stated in the article, “In order to use the malware, government officials will have to get a court order, allowing authorities to hack into a citizen&#x27;s system.”. If your objection to this is “they say that it’s done according to law but we know there will also be instances of them using it inappropriately” then you are also arguing that strong encryption (and pretty much any interesting technology) should not be allowed for public use because we know there will also be instances of it being used to achieve bad ends.<p>I understand that the reality of police, military, etc are not as nice as the theory but I have not seen people here explicitly rejecting the use of force by the state. If you oppose the German government employing spyware, you should consider whether you also oppose it arresting people in general. I suspect most people here have no alternative to suggest in place of the centuries of legal tradition that western societies are built on.
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Quanttek超过 9 年前
Relevant:<p>&gt; According to a 2008 decision by the German Constitutional Court, remote access to a citizen&#x27;s computer is permissible only if there is life-threatening danger or suspicion of criminal activity against the state.
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alexandercrohde超过 9 年前
I think this really illustrates one of the biggest concerns with concentrating software power in the executive: what if a totalitarian seizes control? How much damage can they accomplish?<p>Last time, less than 100 years ago, 2&#x2F;3rds of the Jewish race was eliminated. How much damage could be done to a targeted minority in the information age? Governments by my account, have killed (6 million) an order of magnitude more innocents than terrorists ever have, and short of nukes, ever will.
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pmille5超过 9 年前
Civilians are now subject to an unprecedented level of surveillance. It would be a mistake to underestimate the probabilities of abuse of personal and private information. The &#x27;justifications&#x27; for spying are as endless as the means for carrying it out; in 2001 it was Al Queda, today it&#x27;s ISIL and tomorrow it will be something else. Exactly how these surveillance programs are implemented is beside the point. The results are very clearly a loss of privacy and freedom of expression. Whether or not you&#x27;re likely to become a security threat will be left to the interpretation of bureaucrats rummaging through your Evernote entries and text messages.
carsongross超过 9 年前
If you are doing nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear, citizen.<p>This is for your own protection, citizen.<p>Your prompt compliance in this matter is appreciated, citizen.
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therealmarv超过 9 年前
It sounds like big news but I&#x27;m pretty sure that US intelligence is laughing at this kind of software... Germany is very bad on spying on its own citizens (this is by design, e.g. the privacy laws) in comparison to the USA which I think is even better on spying German citizens than their own government ;)
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scurvy超过 9 年前
Good thing the EU is now forcing US companies to keep EU customer data in the EU. You know, to prevent spying on people&#x27;s data.
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mihaifm超过 9 年前
Are our operating systems so vulnerable? Even if we&#x27;re talking about governments, how is it still possible for someone to &#x27;break&#x27; into my computer without me doing anything stupid. How do they plan to install Trojans into my computer?
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teamhappy超过 9 年前
Do we know who wrote this version? The last one was from FinFisher IIRC.
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sageikosa超过 9 年前
I just hope they don&#x27;t start pressuring anti-virus makers to ignore their malware; lest we be exposed to malware pretending to be government spyware.
gypsy_boots超过 9 年前
&gt; The interior ministry spokesman defended the government&#x27;s decision, saying &quot;basically we now have the skills in an area where we did not have this kind of skill.&quot; The program was already endorsed by members of the government in autumn 2015, the ministry said.<p>By this do they mean they&#x27;ve only now just found and hired someone that can build this program? Is that what they mean by &quot;skill&quot;?
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cuillevel3超过 9 年前
The funny thing is they don&#x27;t want to develop an all-purpose trojan. It&#x27;s only meant to intercept communication before it is encrypted and sent over the wire. This came to happen because they were unable to listen in on Skype calls in the past. So they&#x27;re basically deploying a trojan which is able to copy VOIP traffic.<p>From media reports it&#x27;s unclear if communication includes chat and email, which would make the trojan a keylogger. There are lawyers that argue email, without PGP encryption, is within the &#x27;Quellen-TKÜ&#x27; laws reach.<p>Furthermore the government is not allowed to turn the infected machine into a listening station, by law the flat of a person is under stronger protection than his communication.<p>Technically this will be really hard to enforce in software...
akerro超过 9 年前
&gt; &quot;basically we now have the skills in an area where we did not have this kind of skill...<p>when we were STASI
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lostInTheWoods3超过 9 年前
Are we headed for civil war in cyber space? This is the kind of bs that starts to wake people up.
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antitamper超过 9 年前
What&#x27;s to stop someone setting up a honey trap computer all exposed with Microspy Windows running on it, and effectively summoning these guys.<p>I genuinely am interested in their payloads...
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thinkindie超过 9 年前
considered how Germans are obsessed with privacy and state surveillance (see for example cash usage vs electronic payments), let&#x27;s see a country going nut in 3 2 1 ...
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ai_ja_nai超过 9 年前
Goog luck hacking in my Ubuntu box with latest patches and an iptables firewall... The only reasonable way to obtain people&#x27;s data is to lock them in some Guantanamo like infrastructure and get their password. Betting on weak security as a mean to control people can&#x27;t eventually prevail because open systems get patched at faster speed than vulnerabilities found.
swehner超过 9 年前
Apparently this &quot;trojan&quot; only works on a Windows computer.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;nakedsecurity.sophos.com&#x2F;2011&#x2F;10&#x2F;10&#x2F;german-government-r2d2-trojan-faq&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;nakedsecurity.sophos.com&#x2F;2011&#x2F;10&#x2F;10&#x2F;german-governmen...</a>
CyberDildonics超过 9 年前
So this goes both ways and the German citizens can monitor their government right?
matt4077超过 9 年前
On a practical level, I feel like configuring my systems as just-try&lt;n&gt;.come-get-me.de<p>If it&#x27;s like any other IT project, they probably have just finished the Windows XP version of their &#x27;trojan&#x27;.
coldcode超过 9 年前
Good luck getting a trojan onto an iOS 9 based iPhone 6.
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dschiptsov超过 9 年前
It seems today&#x27;s governments, like churches of the dark ages, wants too much control over what is not their fucking problem.
patkai超过 9 年前
One could easily mirror the title as: &quot;German citizens to use Trojan spyware to monitor governments&quot;.
gotchange超过 9 年前
&gt; They [trojans] are often used by hackers and thieves to gain access to somebody else&#x27;s data.<p>What does this make the German government?<p>If you get something on a suspect, bring him&#x2F;her into custody and start your investigation but bugging them and putting their digital life at risk for the lure and greed for information gathering is just detestable and unethical.
MindTooth超过 9 年前
How can someone justify spyware in any shape and form?!
IncRnd超过 9 年前
I see why merkel was upset with the US spying on her...
throwaway21816超过 9 年前
When the state has a monopoly on force any speech against them is hate speech. Defending the censorship of people you dont like will simply come back to bite you.
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actionwords超过 9 年前
Merkel has already told facebook and twitter to delete comments and ban accounts negative of her &#x27;policies&#x27;.
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error53超过 9 年前
I will always remember that days when german businesses requested servers in their offices because AWS was under NSA...
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