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What the IBM Layoffs Look Like

186 点作者 navait大约 9 年前

34 条评论

junto大约 9 年前
True story about IBM Global Services. I was working with a client that was integrating web services with another third party. IBM GS were responsible for managing third party&#x27;s network.<p>Our client gave IBM the IP addresses to be white listed. They filled in a lengthy time consuming form that got sent through layers of IBM management till some ops team in India finally implemented the change one week later.<p>We started testing. It didn&#x27;t work. We went back and forth for weeks. Finally we put a conference call together with all parties. Live on the phone we sent a series of SOAP requests over the wire. &quot;Yes, we can see the requests&quot;, came the answer. We saw no response.<p>Finally whilst on the phone call, one of the IBM Tech&#x27;s piped up.<p>&quot;Did you want this traffic to go in AND out?&quot;, he asked.<p>&quot;Well, HTTP traffic isn&#x27;t going to be of much use if we don&#x27;t get a response to our request you idiots&quot;, was the answer I wanted to give.<p>They pulled out the initial firewall request form. The request was to &quot;allow traffic from our IP addresses in through the firewall to reach the client&quot;.<p>They took that absolutely literally, and nobody thought to question it. They also absolved themselves of any blame.<p>I detested IBM from that day on.
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swagtricker大约 9 年前
This sort of stuff simply reinforces my own bias in the form of my two rules of professional IT work:<p>1.) If at all possible, don&#x27;t take a full time job in a technical org who&#x27;s membership is greater than Dunbar&#x27;s number (see <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Dunbar%27s_number" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Dunbar%27s_number</a>)<p>2.) If at all possible, don&#x27;t take a full time job in a technical org that is viewed as a cost center (e.g. the code you write&#x2F;systems you maintain don&#x27;t generate revenue).<p>These are no guarantee of job stability, but the violation of rule #1 (e.g. big honkin&#x27; tech == dumb decisions &amp; middle mgmt morons) or rule #2 (e.g. you are a cost to be managed &amp; cut) are far more likely to lead to job instability. Jut my personal experience &amp; $0.02USD.
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thenewwazoo大约 9 年前
IBM has literally no disincentive to do this, either de jure or de facto. The threat of H1-B applications being denied is either laughable or [there aren&#x27;t enough of them anyway] depending on who you ask. And IBM employees, like most tech workers, don&#x27;t think they need to act (read: bargain) collectively and thus have no recourse. Until the tech industry wakes up to the reality that they _are_ labor, companies will continue to treat their employees as fungible, on an increasingly global scale.
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shepardrtc大约 9 年前
I currently work at a multi-national corporation that has offshored a vast majority of its development and infrastructure. Any savings in cost of payroll is absolutely outpaced by a massive increase in expenditure required for project overruns and failures due to lower quality of work, terrible communication, lack of real SME&#x27;s, and worthless organization. The upper management&#x27;s reaction to this was to bring in consultants who are considerably more expensive than local talent and are often laughably ineffective. Especially since they have to fly back home every single Thursday. The sense of impending failure among the local employees for every single project is palpable.
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padseeker大约 9 年前
IBM doesn&#x27;t make much of their own software. They bought lotus notes, they made rational clear case a massive product by buying other companies and cobbling it together. There is literally not a single company that is adding lotus notes or rational to their enterprise development suite. Their dwindling profits are accumulated from older companies who cannot or will not put up the cost to transition to latest tools. However every month another one of those companies finally bites the bullet and replaces those outdated tools. Aside from Watson when was the last time IBM MADE SOMETHING? Maybe they have but I haven&#x27;t heard of it.<p>I feel bad for anyone losing their job but if your company does not make anything and is this large what hope is there?
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PierreRochard大约 9 年前
When I worked at Deloitte they made a similar decision to outsource to India instead of training staff to learn Python and automate the time consuming, low value work. That&#x27;s when I decided to leave, best move of my career.
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at-fates-hands大约 9 年前
TBH, I&#x27;ve seen a lot of companies doing this recently. Cargill has been going through the same thing and they&#x27;ve been actively culling people who are close to be fully vested (20 year mark I believe). One friend who got their job &quot;moved to the India office&quot; said she lost over 400K in pension money because she was let go 6 months prior to her 20 year mark. After she started talking to other employees, she found close to a dozen mid-level managers who were all within 2-5 years of hitting the same mark.<p>Also, I&#x27;ve seen a LOT of companies to do this and it never ends well. This is usually a harbinger of metrics slipping, profit goals missed and shaky investors getting out. Which in turn means the company is in a slide. Moving their stuff overseas is a way to show investors they&#x27;re trying to cut costs.<p>It never works. I can name a half-dozen companies off the top of my head that did this and it actually made the situation worse not better. Some of those companies are still struggling to make it back.<p>Here are some off the top of my head:<p>1 - IBM<p>2 - Honeywell<p>3 - Cargill<p>4 - Thomson Reuters<p>5 - Best Buy<p>6 - Wells Fargo
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outside1234大约 9 年前
This is why Trump is so popular. If you expand this to include blue collar workers that have been savaged over the last twenty years, you can see the vein of anger that he is tapping into.
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mark_l_watson大约 9 年前
I wish there was more &quot;onshoring&quot; of jobs to very low cost of living areas in the USA. For example, I live in Arizona and the cost of living is so much less than Silicon Valley and San Diego where I have worked before.<p>Life is good in the country and I wish more companies would consider setting up development offices where low cost housing was very nearby office space. Save money and still be in convenient time zones.<p>I have what is probably an unpopular opinion, but I can&#x27;t really blame corporations for using foreign development centers. However, I would like to see them penalized via slightly higher tax rates.
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cognivore大约 9 年前
I can&#x27;t think of two many companies that are more irrelevant to the future of computing. What does IBM actually do anymore? Seems to me they just need legions of consultants and cheap developers to bleed their customers under the guise of offering &quot;solutions.&quot;
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planetjones大约 9 年前
Sad, but it&#x27;s happening everywhere. I have nothing against the best people being employed irrespective of their country of origin. But I really feel ill at ease when companies like IBM say quality does not matter at all and let&#x27;s just cut costs as recklessly as possible.
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veeragoni大约 9 年前
I wonder Watson might have helped them to take such steps. Basically putting HR&#x2F;Finance data into Watson hands and figure out optimum way of doing things with algorithms&#x2F;forecasting etc.. Could be an interesting AI application.
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jayess大约 9 年前
&quot;Resource Action.&quot; That&#x27;s even worse than my previous corporate cog job where they called it a RIF, &quot;Reduction in Force.&quot; Who sits around and justifies themselves by coming up with idiotic terms like this?
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arafa大约 9 年前
It&#x27;s surprising they mention regulatory work (around data privacy) going offshore. I saw that happen at another company I worked for and it didn&#x27;t go well. When the feds realized there&#x27;s no one in person they can talk to and hold responsible, those jobs all came right back less than a year later.
guelo大约 9 年前
Establishment Republicans and Democrats agree that this is good, this is the way things should work in the globalized world. This kind of thing explains the rise of both Trump and Sanders.
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danso大约 9 年前
Are there many&#x2F;any companies that take the &quot;automate yourself out of a job&quot; credo seriously? That is, realizing the benefits of designed automation, produced by experienced developers who want to ascend from their initial roles by delegating that work to a well engineered system? I guess it&#x27;s possible to outsource jobs while rewarding employees who are able to raise the tide for everyone, but it kind of sounds like IBM and most big tech companies see it as a zero sum game that is winnable by driving down labor costs.
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freehunter大约 9 年前
Disclaimer: I am a (US) IBM employee, but my opinions are 100% my own<p>Shipping jobs overseas sucks. I live in the Midwest where most cities were hit by manufacturing going overseas, and my own family was impacted hard by it, like most people&#x27;s were. I work in IT, so of course I know how much offshoring sucks. And I know what I&#x27;m about to say is going to be controversial. I&#x27;m not saying it to be glib or to downplay the pain that losing your job inflicts upon the whole family. What I&#x27;m saying is a warning.<p>Because this kind of stuff isn&#x27;t new. It&#x27;s not like this is the first time anyone has ever heard of sending jobs to other countries. And in terms of layoffs in general, IBM has 500,000 employees and is constantly restructuring itself to stay competitive in the ever-changing tech market. When mainframe and storage had a big layoff last year, my response as an IBMer was &quot;we still have mainframe and storage people?&quot; We spun off (or spun down) those parts of the business a long time ago, you had to have realized that your days were numbered.<p>I work for a hot part of IBM. A part of IBM that makes the company a lot of money. My job is fairly secure. But I know it won&#x27;t be like that forever. Hell, it won&#x27;t be like that for more than a handful of years. Because things change constantly. Right now I&#x27;m working on a project that will automate quite a bit of my work. And I&#x27;m hoping to take the skills from I&#x27;ve learned from that and using them to launch into the next hot thing.<p>Yes, when it&#x27;s my turn to be laid off I will complain so loudly that they will hear me in whatever offshore country happens to take my job. But to be honest, by then I will be working somewhere else, doing something else. Because this isn&#x27;t a new thing. Everyone knows that companies offshore and outsource and lay off employees they don&#x27;t need anymore. And if you read the article, it seems like these people knew it was coming, but stayed until the end anyway.<p>Layoffs suck. Offshoring sucks. But have you seen IBM stock lately? I&#x27;ve never gotten a bonus and I&#x27;ve never gotten a raise, because those two things only happen when we&#x27;re making money. There is no way in any universe that you could look at your job at IBM and think &quot;yeah, this will hold me until retirement&quot;. That&#x27;s not a reality in today&#x27;s job market. My grandpa worked at the same factory his whole life from the day he graduated high school to the day the factory moved to Mexico. Between that and the five more years he worked until he retired, he had five different jobs. That&#x27;s the reality of today&#x27;s job market.<p>It sucks, but you have to just accept it. Two years, maybe three. If you&#x27;re still at the same job after that, you&#x27;re probably cheating yourself.
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_delirium大约 9 年前
Sounds along the lines of what many people here were speculating last week: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=11220800" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=11220800</a>
jonawesomegreen大约 9 年前
Does anyone have any information on what sort of teams they are moving? The image in the article references Watson, but I would be willing to bet teams working on that sort of research are staying in the US. I would bet its the sort of &quot;maintenance&quot; teams that are moving offshore, as they are seen as cost centers.
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randyrand大约 9 年前
Why do Americans think they are entitled to higher pay for the same work?
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platform大约 9 年前
<i>) IBM pension liability approaches 100 billion USD [1]<p></i>) IBM has a number of low profit IT services. Cutting the services completely out of their portfolio, for one reason or another, at this point in time -- was not an option<p>My conjecture is the above are the reasons, and will continue to be reasons for layoffs specifically in US or other high-cost locations<p>Another prediction: If you look at the list in [1]. And see an IT company with large generic IT services portfolio, and shrinking product portfolio (software or hardware does not matter) -- they will do similar layoffs until they become &#x27;leaders&#x27; again, or declare bankruptcy or get a bailout.<p>[1] <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.valuewalk.com&#x2F;2013&#x2F;05&#x2F;corporate-pensions-most-underfunded&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.valuewalk.com&#x2F;2013&#x2F;05&#x2F;corporate-pensions-most-und...</a><p>(this list is from 2013, but my search for more recent data indicates not much has changed)
TaylorGood大约 9 年前
This headline from today is rather scary then:<p>&quot;Yoox Net-a-Porter turns to IBM to propel its luxury e-commerce experience&quot;<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;digiday.com&#x2F;brands&#x2F;yoox-net-porter-turns-ibm-propel-luxury-e-commerce-experience&#x2F;?curator=TechREDEF" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;digiday.com&#x2F;brands&#x2F;yoox-net-porter-turns-ibm-propel-l...</a>
martin_bech大约 9 年前
Why anyone in this position, would be willing to train his replacement, is beyond me.
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pfarnsworth大约 9 年前
Aren&#x27;t there laws that prevent these sort of stealth layoffs? It sounds like they might be violating federal laws by not announcing it properly.
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hackbinary大约 9 年前
Won&#x27;t buy IBM&#x2F;Lenovo stuff ever again. It was too late to stop the purchase of our new VMware cluster and SAN last year, but this year we will not buy replacement IBM&#x2F;Lenovo backup storage servers. Roughly £20,000 which is not huge, but then again, it is not nothing either.
protomyth大约 9 年前
So, I guess Cringely continues to be right <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.cringely.com" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.cringely.com</a><p>I notice he has an article on IBM on the top and his books is pretty good. I&#x27;m not sure I agree about Intel systems, but he at least reasons it out.
wehadfun大约 9 年前
IBM should just relocate to India.
icedtea大约 9 年前
it is happening on the same way for EMC now. My team,me and lots of people were gone for the deal with Dell. They&#x27;ve been transferring all the work to China. Right now, what i heard from my co-worker, the laid off is still ongoing.
dinkumthinkum大约 9 年前
So, I&#x27;m trying to figure out the general HN view based on the comments in seeing ...<p>Is it the case the HNers generally view programming as a fairly low paid blue collar position?
paulddraper大约 9 年前
IBM is notable for the exception to Crockford&#x27;s do-good-not-evil license: &quot;IBM, its customers, partners, and minions may use JSLint for evil &quot;
slantedview大约 9 年前
IBM rule #1: Do not ever work for IBM.<p>IBM rule #2: See IBM rule #1.
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_jnc大约 9 年前
Why do they enforce having a referrer set? If you refresh the page it becomes a 404.
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tunichtgut大约 9 年前
please someone send a link of this comment section to warren buffet that he can &quot;figure out&quot; why his IBM shares are down 2 billion dollars...
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thecosas大约 9 年前
Ouch