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Study finds negative association between empathizing and calculation ability

189 点作者 randomname2大约 9 年前

18 条评论

nostrademons大约 9 年前
Curious to see no mention (in the paper or comments here) of previous neuro-imaging experiments that showed that brain networks associated with empathy and those associated with logical thought are antagonists, and it does not appear to be possible to have both active at the same time:<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;blog.case.edu&#x2F;think&#x2F;2012&#x2F;10&#x2F;30&#x2F;empathy_represses_analytic_thought_and_vice_versa" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;blog.case.edu&#x2F;think&#x2F;2012&#x2F;10&#x2F;30&#x2F;empathy_represses_anal...</a><p>There&#x27;s a long pop-science suspicion of this, dating back to Jungian psychology (where Thinking vs. Feeling was considered a primitive dichotomy). It&#x27;s enshrined in many of our stereotypes about socially awkward nerds, and also in the structure of the tech industry (which has separate departments for sales vs. engineering, and common wisdom that you need a hustler &amp; a hacker for startups).<p>This seems much more likely, as an explanation, than ideas that poor math performance may be transmitted socially, although of course it&#x27;d need to be rigorously tested in an experiment to be proven.
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jacobolus大约 9 年前
Looks to me mostly like a cluster of kids with very high “calculation skills” and relatively low “empathizing quotient” is skewing their result. If you remove that group, the remaining data looks pretty uncorrelated at a glance: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nature.com&#x2F;articles&#x2F;srep23011&#x2F;figures&#x2F;1" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nature.com&#x2F;articles&#x2F;srep23011&#x2F;figures&#x2F;1</a><p><i>“Math Fluency is a measure of speeded application of arithmetic procedures. Problems included a mix of addition, subtraction, and multiplication with operands up to 10. Children were given 3 minutes to complete as many as possible. We computed a Calculation Skills composite measure, which combines the Calculation and Math Fluency subtests, in order to have a single measure capturing arithmetic ability.<p>“The primary guardian of each child completed the Combined Empathy Quotient-Child (EQ-C) and Systemizing Quotient-Child (SQ-C). The questionnaire was designed to be parent-report in order to avoid variance associated with children’s reading and comprehension abilities.”</i><p>Alternative summary: “Out of 112 children, among the bottom 105 children when ranked by arithmetic calculation speed, there’s no statistically significant correlation between arithmetic calculation speed and parental assessment of child empathy. The parents of the top 7 performers by arithmetic calculation speed uniformly think their kids have below-average empathy.”
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belorn大约 9 年前
<i>&quot;The questionnaire was designed to be parent-report in order to avoid variance associated with children’s reading and comprehension abilities.”</i><p>That seems to be as removing smaller variables by introducing a bigger one, which seems counter to current standards. When a child is being diagnosed, the physiologist always talk with the child, as its very easy to get the wrong conclusion by hearing the child being described. Its not uncommon for a diagnose to be first suspected from the descriptions that the parents gives, and then be reverted after just a short interview with the child.<p>After reading the article, I also wonder what correlation there is with high math achievements and being a victim of bullying, and how bullying effects the perceived social and empathy skills of a child.
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csense大约 9 年前
They seem to be hypothesizing that the mechanism causing this result is that math anxiety can be transmitted like a disease, and lower empathy individuals are somewhat immune.<p>It would be worthwhile to figure out what makes math anxiety transmittable, and what other attitudes might be transmitted by a similar mechanism and lead to measurable impact.
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noobermin大约 9 年前
As a note to people fearful of indulging past the abstract, from what I understand, Scientific Reports are meant to be read across a field of science, so it should be somewhat approachable compared to your average research paper. I found it readable and interesting with only a few confusing moments that didn&#x27;t distract from the main point.
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noname123大约 9 年前
&quot;No widely accepted cognitive theory explains savants&#x27; combination of talent and deficit. It has been suggested that individuals with autism are biased towards detail-focused processing and that this cognitive style predisposes individuals either with or without autism to savant talents. Another hypothesis is that savants hyper-systemize, thereby giving an impression of talent. Hyper-systemizing is an extreme state in the empathizing–systemizing theory that classifies people based on their skills in empathizing with others versus systemizing facts about the external world. Also, the attention to detail of savants is a consequence of enhanced perception or sensory hypersensitivity in these unique individuals.&quot; (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Savant_syndrome" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Savant_syndrome</a>)<p>I am very fascinated by the semantics vs. syntax of empathy. Suppose you have a savant who is good at systematic identification of literary characters, or criminal profiling or DSM-IV case files; in another words, he or she is very good at reading people and classifying them into logical&#x2F;hierarchical systems of mental, historical and social backgrounds; and miming their behavior when interacting with them, just as a savant with photographic memory can &quot;mime&quot; the Manhattan skyline in drawing.<p>Would we classify such a person as empathetic or sociopathic? If their empathy comes not from a human emotional instinct but from logical deduction?
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Bjartr大约 9 年前
For those like me who were curious about the contents of the Empathy&#x2F;Systemizing Quotient test itself I believe I found it as well as the scoring key for both the child and adult version (in case you want to know where you yourself fall on the scale)<p>These links are to Google Docs previews of .doc files listed at <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.autismresearchcentre.com&#x2F;arc_tests" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.autismresearchcentre.com&#x2F;arc_tests</a><p>-------------------------------------------------<p>Combined Empathy&#x2F;Systemizing Quotient - Child<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;docs.google.com&#x2F;viewer?embedded=true&amp;url=http:&#x2F;&#x2F;docs.autismresearchcentre.com&#x2F;tests&#x2F;EQ-SQ_Child.doc" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;docs.google.com&#x2F;viewer?embedded=true&amp;url=http:&#x2F;&#x2F;docs...</a><p>Scoring Key<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;docs.google.com&#x2F;viewer?embedded=true&amp;url=http:&#x2F;&#x2F;docs.autismresearchcentre.com&#x2F;tests&#x2F;EQ-SQ_Child_Scoring_Key.doc" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;docs.google.com&#x2F;viewer?embedded=true&amp;url=http:&#x2F;&#x2F;docs...</a><p>-------------------------------------------------<p>Empathy Quotient - Adult<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;docs.google.com&#x2F;viewer?embedded=true&amp;url=http:&#x2F;&#x2F;docs.autismresearchcentre.com&#x2F;tests&#x2F;EQ2.doc" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;docs.google.com&#x2F;viewer?embedded=true&amp;url=http:&#x2F;&#x2F;docs...</a><p>Scoring Key<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;docs.google.com&#x2F;viewer?embedded=true&amp;url=http:&#x2F;&#x2F;docs.autismresearchcentre.com&#x2F;tests&#x2F;EQ40_ScoringKey.doc" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;docs.google.com&#x2F;viewer?embedded=true&amp;url=http:&#x2F;&#x2F;docs...</a><p>-------------------------------------------------<p>Systemizing Quotient - Adult<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;docs.google.com&#x2F;viewer?embedded=true&amp;url=http:&#x2F;&#x2F;docs.autismresearchcentre.com&#x2F;tests&#x2F;SQ.doc" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;docs.google.com&#x2F;viewer?embedded=true&amp;url=http:&#x2F;&#x2F;docs...</a><p>Scoring Key<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;docs.google.com&#x2F;viewer?embedded=true&amp;url=http:&#x2F;&#x2F;docs.autismresearchcentre.com&#x2F;tests&#x2F;SQ_Scoring_Key.doc" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;docs.google.com&#x2F;viewer?embedded=true&amp;url=http:&#x2F;&#x2F;docs...</a>
leeny大约 9 年前
If I&#x27;m reading this correctly, calculation skills are what suffer with increased empathizing, rather than ability to solve applied math problems. Is that right? Are there examples of what constitutes calculation vs. applied problem solving for the purposes of this study?<p>EDIT: Looks like calculations are straight up calculations, and applied problems are story problems. <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;achievement-test.com&#x2F;testing-options&#x2F;woodcock-johnson-iii-tests" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;achievement-test.com&#x2F;testing-options&#x2F;woodcock-johnson...</a>
lgleason大约 9 年前
No surprise there....testosterone probably plays a role. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;p5LRdW8xw70?t=1311" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;p5LRdW8xw70?t=1311</a>
analyst74大约 9 年前
So are kids with higher empathy bad at math, leading to the environment where being bad at math makes you more popular?<p>Or is that those kids realize being bad at math makes them more popular, thus intentionally neglect or even pretend to be bad at math?
jackcosgrove大约 9 年前
I think this has to do with abstract reasoning skills. If you can abstract shapes and numbers well, you can abstract people well. You begin to see people as numbers and objects.
ilostmykeys大约 9 年前
Empathic individuals tend act from a position of deep understanding. If given a menial task that has no deep connection to their reality, i.e. no purpose they can connect with, then they&#x27;ll just ignore it. Their brain will not even touch it.<p>A deeply empathic person can calculate, and more generally think and intuit, better than an emotionally detached person as long as they can emotionally connect with the task being given to them.
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samch大约 9 年前
Like many of the others here, I&#x27;m not terribly surprised by this. I learned the distinction by watching the original Star Trek as a kid. Vulcans represented the logical, calculating race, while humans were characterized as the emotional, sometimes illogical race. Spock, of course, represented the complex balance between the two.
asciimo大约 9 年前
Good thing we have computers to augment our calculation abilities. Maybe they can augment our empathy, too (<a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amednews.com&#x2F;article&#x2F;20111206&#x2F;profession&#x2F;312069996&#x2F;8&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amednews.com&#x2F;article&#x2F;20111206&#x2F;profession&#x2F;31206999...</a>).
kaitai大约 9 年前
That&#x27;s why good profs don&#x27;t do spontaneous calculations at the board.<p>They need to be done in the privacy of one&#x27;s own home.
dschiptsov大约 9 年前
And empathizing is? Measured in?
j2kun大约 9 年前
I&#x27;m going to read the rest of this paper, but it looks like the title here is misleading. The last sentence of the abstract:<p>&gt; These results identify empathy, and social skills more generally, as previously unknown predictors of mathematical achievement.<p>Edit: added:<p>&gt; Contrary to our hypothesis, we found no relationship between systemizing and math achievement after controlling for domain general abilities and no relationship between the systemizing brain type (greater discrepancy between systemizing and empathizing) and math achievement.<p>More edits:<p>The &quot;negative correlation&quot; turns out to be only for &quot;calculation&quot; and the values are r=-0.22, p=0.02, with a sample size of around a hundred individuals. This is a negligible effect by any stretch of the imagination. Sounds like the authors did their diligence in writing this up, and it&#x27;s the submitter&#x27;s fault for the linkbait headline.
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aaron695大约 9 年前
Empathizing is dumb.<p>Calculation ability is smart.<p>Surprise is where?<p>Empathizing is why people give $10 to a local kids soccer team but let kids die in poor countries missing vaccines.