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Why don't I take military funding? (2004)

134 点作者 altotrees大约 9 年前

23 条评论

brudgers大约 9 年前
Original probably from late 2003 or early 2004. Still on Kuiper&#x27;s homepage: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;web.eecs.umich.edu&#x2F;~kuipers&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;web.eecs.umich.edu&#x2F;~kuipers&#x2F;</a>
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bgribble大约 9 年前
Dr. Kuipers was my grad school advisor at the University of Texas. I found his adherence to principles of pacifism and nonviolence, rooted in Quakerism, to be very inspirational.<p>Certainly, as a graduate student, I would have had an easier time if we could take DARPA money instead of only applying for grants from civilian institutions (NSF, NASA, etc). I don&#x27;t regret it.<p>Yes, many (most?) of our technological advances have come from military motivations. But people like Kuipers who take principled positions of nonviolence help create a vision of a society where that&#x27;s not true any more. We may never get there, but that doesn&#x27;t matter.<p>There&#x27;s a definitely similarity between Kuipers and Richard Stallman in that regard... taking a strong principled position, even if it&#x27;s not &quot;practical&quot;, can be very important. And both of them came out of the MIT AI lab at about the same time :)<p>Kuipers trivia: he implemented the Common LISP &quot;print&quot; facility&#x27;s ability to render numbers as Roman numerals, as a joke, and submitted it to Guy Steele, who was working on &quot;Comon LISP: The Language&quot;. Steele included it in the book and now it&#x27;s part of LISP forever.
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kriro大约 9 年前
In Germany (and Japan according to Wikipedia) there&#x27;s the concept of &quot;Zivilklausel&quot; which is a pledge by an entire university to only conduct civilian research. The dual use problem remains and there&#x27;s some loopholes but by and large the universities that pledge to it follow it. Here&#x27;s a link of participating institutions (in German but mostly a list): <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.zivilklausel.de&#x2F;index.php&#x2F;bestehende-zivilklauseln" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.zivilklausel.de&#x2F;index.php&#x2F;bestehende-zivilklausel...</a><p>Notably 6 states have that clause in their university laws. Since I live in one of them I have only conducted civilian research by default (yay?).
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maxaf大约 9 年前
Depriving the world&#x27;s militaries of research brains isn&#x27;t going to prevent or lessen violence. Those who reach for violence as a commonly used tool will continue to do so, with or without advanced researchers at their side, albeit with cruder tools of warfare in case researchers do decide to walk away en masse.<p>Perhaps a more impactful approach would be to resist the use of violence per se, not the tools of war. I can see room for research into non-lethal weaponry that can be sold to militaries and police forces as a turn-key, easy to use solution which, on one hand, leaves room for violent yet non-lethal action, and on the other hand doesn&#x27;t exact a cost in human lives during conflict resolution. Tasers are a crude prototype preview of what might be possible. I&#x27;m thinking more along the lines of perfecting a non-lethal weapon that doesn&#x27;t electrocute a person while running the risk of stopping their heart entirely. That doesn&#x27;t count as non-lethal!<p>In short, the author&#x27;s stance is commendable if short sighted. IMHO there are better ways to resist violence than simply making a one-man stand.
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anonymous950大约 9 年前
<i>(v) Pacifism. The majority of pacifists either belong to obscure religious sects or are simply humanitarians who object to the taking of life and prefer not to follow their thoughts beyond that point. But there is a minority of intellectual pacifists whose real though unadmitted motive appears to be hatred of western democracy and admiration of totalitarianism. Pacifist propaganda usually boils down to saying that one side is as bad as the other, but if one looks closely at the writings of younger intellectual pacifists, one finds that they do not by any means express impartial disapproval but are directed almost entirely against Britain and the United States. Moreover they do not as a rule condemn violence as such, but only violence used in defence of western countries. The Russians, unlike the British, are not blamed for defending themselves by warlike means, and indeed all pacifist propaganda of this type avoids mention of Russia or China. It is not claimed, again, that the Indians should abjure violence in their struggle against the British. Pacifist literature abounds with equivocal remarks which, if they mean anything, appear to mean that statesmen of the type of Hitler are preferable to those of the type of Churchill, and that violence is perhaps excusable if it is violent enough. After the fall of France, the French pacifists, faced by a real choice which their English colleagues have not had to make, mostly went over to the Nazis, and in England there appears to have been some small overlap of membership between the Peace Pledge Union and the Blackshirts. Pacifist writers have written in praise of Carlyle, one of the intellectual fathers of Fascism. All in all it is difficult not to feel that pacifism, as it appears among a section of the intelligentsia, is secretly inspired by an admiration for power and successful cruelty. The mistake was made of pinning this emotion to Hitler, but it could easily be retransfered.</i> -- Orwell, Notes on Nationalism, 1945
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dzdt大约 9 年前
I took military funding for graduate school -- a National Defense Science and Engineering Graduate (NDSEG) Fellowship. My reasoning was I was studying pure mathematics, and I knew my work had zero possibility of military applications. So by taking their money I was diverting it to purely peaceful purposes.<p>And their funding was a bit higher than the NSF fellowship, so that choice dovetailed nicely with self-interest.<p>It would have been a harder choice if my work did have potential military application. I don&#x27;t know if I would have had the backbone of the linked professor. I admire his conviction.
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avukich大约 9 年前
Couldn&#x27;t a very good argument be made that military research has actually prevented a LOT of conflicts? Think of what may have happened if the Soviet Union and US didn&#x27;t both have large nuclear arsenals. There is a very real possibility that there would have been a WW3 between NATO and the Soviet Bloc without M.A.D.
riot504大约 9 年前
Star Trek provides the setting for an ideal military; we are currently far from an ideal military as the best and brightest leave due to a variety of reasons. Yes, weapons research is needed because you often encounter violent species but research and exploration are above all; a thirst for knowledge is more important than profit. In general a culture (society) we seek money over knowledge. Certain individuals seek out knowledge with the goal of gaining more money. I am not saying all of us are like this but take society as a whole and a large percentage learn solely to earn more money, not for the pleasure in learning.
jpmattia大约 9 年前
&gt; <i>And as I watched my colleagues dealing with DARPA&#x27;s demands for reports, PI meetings, bake-offs, delays and reductions in promised funding, and other hassles, I began to wonder whether I hadn&#x27;t gotten the best side of the deal after all.</i><p>Applies to the startup world as well.<p>I&#x27;ve done startups in both Silicon Valley and Washington DC, and I have to say: The time commitment is not as recognized as it should be. Folks that build their companies around getting govt funding tend to get good at getting govt funding, which is different from getting good at building product.
yodsanklai大约 9 年前
I did a postdoc in the US which was funded by a US navy grant. I remember that my supervisor told me that even if our research doesn&#x27;t lead to any practical application, at least it won&#x27;t help to kill anyone.
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johngalt大约 9 年前
Science funding explained <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.smbc-comics.com&#x2F;?id=1522" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.smbc-comics.com&#x2F;?id=1522</a>
jtth大约 9 年前
I don&#x27;t understand. The funding sources he does accept can still be funded by defense groups if they&#x27;re cruising through proposals. It&#x27;s ultimately the same pot of money with the same reporting due to the government who will find out the same things from the same sources. Just because you didn&#x27;t get your funding directly from ONR doesn&#x27;t mean the DoD isn&#x27;t funding your research.
jonjacky大约 9 年前
Also pertinent: Terry Winograd&#x27;s Thoughts On Military Funding (1984, with a postscript from 2002):<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;cpsr.org&#x2F;prevsite&#x2F;publications&#x2F;newsletters&#x2F;issues&#x2F;2001&#x2F;Summer&#x2F;tw.html&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;cpsr.org&#x2F;prevsite&#x2F;publications&#x2F;newsletters&#x2F;issues&#x2F;200...</a>
mirekrusin大约 9 年前
It&#x27;s an interesting problem. Doesn&#x27;t it mean that in long run, with this set of mind, military will be filled in by people who &quot;care less&quot; about killing people - therefore making the world &quot;worse&quot;?<p>Maybe having in military people with author&#x27;s principles is what we need the most?
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mikeash大约 9 年前
It&#x27;s weird how a college professor refusing to take military funding is super controversial, but if a programmer decides to work at, say, Apple instead of a defense contractor, nobody bats an eye.<p>The comments here are full of people criticizing this guy&#x27;s position and saying that helping your country&#x27;s military is better. How many of <i>you</i> are helping the military? Does this principle apply to everybody, or just college professors? Or is it simply that he&#x27;s public about the reasons for his choice, so people feel a need to argue with it?
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banku_brougham大约 9 年前
The right way to excercise your conscience and be an example for others. Thank you for sharing this, I hadn&#x27;t seen it.
george_ciobanu大约 9 年前
Tell Iran about nonviolent methods. To have an overwhelmingly powerful military in the right hands (Bush Jr. was not the right hands) is a big safeguard against most crazy nations.
leecarraher大约 9 年前
non-violence or pacifism aside, military grants are loaded with mountains of mind numbing paperwork and bureaucracy ...pass.
Kenji大约 9 年前
Wasn&#x27;t the internet a direct result of government funded military research? I&#x27;m all for boycotting war but I think there is some value in that research.<p>EDIT: Okay, he addressed that point in his article. However, I&#x27;d like to double down on that objection. In this fantastic video ( <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=87WK_7lkrVg" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=87WK_7lkrVg</a> ), Physicist Neil DeGrasse Tyson argues how great projects come into being. He names 3 main drivers: 1. Religion and serving deities (mostly irrelevant in the western world, how the pyramids got built), 2. through economic incentives and 3. as a survival instinct (war). Historically, it&#x27;s always been one of the three. I think military research is essential for progress and we need other paths to make sure that our nation does not go to war. The solution to war is not scientific ignorance, it&#x27;s a pacifist population.
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sillysaurus3大约 9 年前
&quot;Anyone who clings to the historically untrue -- and thoroughly immoral -- doctrine that violence never settles anything I would advise to conjure up the ghosts of Napoleon Bonaparte and the Duke of Wellington and let them debate it. The ghost of Hitler would referee. Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. Breeds that forgot this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and their freedoms.&quot;<p>- Robert Heinlein<p>This quote stuck with me, possibly due to the force of its presentation rather than its merits.<p>I thought it would be interesting to present the other side of the debate to HN and open it up to comment. I&#x27;m undecided.<p>Heinlein&#x27;s viewpoint and the author&#x27;s viewpoint are polar opposites. Perhaps the truth is somewhere in the middle.
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avukich大约 9 年前
Too bad the Islamic terrorists who perpetrated 9&#x2F;11, Paris attacks, Brussels attacks, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc don&#x27;t follow the same belief system. Good luck negotiating with them.
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nxzero大约 9 年前
Taken to an extreme, everything is unhealthy.<p>If you&#x27;re going to say no to funding, you might as well say no to knowledge, tech, etc. - that has been gained from such funding.<p>Are you prepared to stop washing your hands? It&#x27;s theorized that the modern practice of washing hands came from battle field surgery.
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wtbob大约 9 年前
&gt; My position has its roots in the Vietnam War, when I was a conscientious objector<p>Ah yes, the Vietnam War, a last-ditch attempt to preserve some freedom and democracy (albeit imperfect) from a bloodthirsty regime which killed tens or hundreds of thousands of people, not in war but in post-war executions. Truly, a fine thing to conscientiously object to.<p>&gt; In short, I believe that non-violent methods of conflict resolution provide the only methods for protecting our country against the deadly threats we face in the long run.<p>That is a detachment from reality so extreme that it&#x27;s difficult to imagine that he is able to tie his shoes in the morning. Some folks say that violence is the last refuge of the incompetent; that&#x27;s true, but only because the competent turn to it before it&#x27;s their last choice.<p>Yes, violence is wrong and evil; yes, it is brutal and merciless. It is horrible to see violence, and more horrible still to engage in it. But — and this is the key point — violence is often unavoidable: the choice is not between violence and nonviolence (that choice is easy!) but between violence now and violence later. Which is worse? That&#x27;s hard to say.<p>The only thing which enables pacifists to survive is non-pacifists who protect them. Calmly reasoning with (or emotionally pleading with) someone intent on stealing from, raping or killing one does not succeed with anywhere near the reliability of of stopping him with violent force. It&#x27;s the police and the military which dissuade one&#x27;s fellow citizens and external powers, respectively, from exercising violence upon one. &#x27;I won&#x27;t take up arms myself, but I will enjoy the peace and security provided by those who do&#x27; makes as much moral sense as &#x27;I won&#x27;t kill animals, but I&#x27;ll eat meat.&#x27;<p>It&#x27;s a free country; he&#x27;s free to free-load on the sacrifice and hard work of his fellow-citizens, and we&#x27;re free to think that behaviour fundamentally irresponsible.
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