NYC vs Silicon Valley

<i>a) Wall Street has been a huge talent suck for a long time...the default dream...: Work for Lehman.</i><p>Actually, there is a bigger talent suck than Lehman. I can easily see the appeal of working for a startup rather than Lehman: don't wear a suit, don't deal with bureaucracy or MBAs, technology rules the day. Less money, but a lot more fun.<p>Now, consider many small hedge funds: don't wear a suit, no bureaucracy, maybe one or two MBA's who handle clients, technology rules the day. Bring your dog to work, but the CEO's dog gets veto power.<p>Both seem like fun places to work, but the hedge fund can compete on price.

I am a veteran of both places. Here is what you need to know.<p>- NYC is 30% more expensive than Silicon Valley / SF<p>- you don't need a car in SF but you probably do in SV<p>- you might need a car if you live in the inconvenient neighborhoods of SF.<p>- the bay area is sort of automatically healthy, you have to work hard to be unhealthy<p>- NYC is automatically unhealthy, you have to work hard to be healthy<p>- the weather is better in California<p>- the women are better in NYC<p>- if you are decent looking and have a job, you can get a date in NYC<p>- you can be good looking and rich in SV/SF and still never get a date<p>- there are better options for outdoors activities in California<p>- anything besides outdoors activities is more convenient in NYC.<p>- hedge funds / finance can be more interesting than a dumb startup and will certainly pay more<p>- working for a dumb startup is bad for your career<p>- you can get trapped in a startup career spiral in SF/SV where you never make any money, even if you're a great programmer<p>- you'll eventually make decent coin in NYC even if you're only an average programmer<p>- there are interesting people in NYC with varied careers ranging from UN analyst to fashion designer<p>- in SF/SV there are tech industry people and weirdos<p>- counterintuitively, even though NYC is more money oriented, the programmers often have very interesting outside interests. the meetup scene in NYC is intellectual, there's math, machine learning, functional programming, etc<p>- in SF/SV most of your fellow programmers will only claim road cycling and guitar hero as interests. the meetup scene is usually about source control or social media tweeting<p>I could go on and on. Thinking about where the best place is to build your startup is kind of silly. You want to think about what you want to build, and build it. You can always move later if needed. These lists are also dumb, although it was fun to write. Really the only way you can decide where to live is to experience places yourself.

In further defense of NYC, I want to address this whole rent/commuting argument.<p>We are comparing this to Silicon Valley, where the freeway is packed with traffic both ways every morning and evening. That same commute in NYC means you could live in very affordable places in Brooklyn, Harlem, Queens, and NJ.<p>Another founder I know, after exiting his company, moved to NYC from SV mainly because he couldn't stand being stuck in traffic all day.<p>Commuting in via the subway or NJ Transit is no longer than the time a lot of people spend in traffic in SV.<p>And the best part? You can read a book. I just finished another chapter in Founder's at Work on the subway back from a meeting. Awesome.<p>And since when was SF and Palo Alto that cheap anyway?<p>Plus in SV you need to own a car and car insurance. That is expensive. I couldn't afford that so I had to borrow a bike. That bike had to get me EVERYWHERE. Want to go to a meeting in SF? There goes half your day because you're at the mercy of the caltrain.<p>Anyway, I could go on, but you get the point. I would argue that NYC will save you time and money when it comes to transportation and rent. OK /rant<p>ps SV and Palo Alto will always have a place in my heart :).

<i>[Wall Streeters turned venture capitalists] are people who do dumb shit like ask about pricing for a premium version of a genuinely novel product (in a category with no existing market) that hasn't even launched yet...in the first meeting.</i><p>Right, because asking about pricing (you know, the process by which you charge actual money for a product, thus generating revenue and hopefully profit) is a completely unreasonable thing for an investor to ask about.

VCs/Angels in NYC(northeast as well) are just not in the same investing environment as the West Coast. And it's solely because this area is just not as mature as there. There are the investors that are smart and are willing to take the risks (Founder's Collective, USV, FRC, Flybridge etc.), but the problem is that they are few and far between relative to earlystage VCs and angels on the west coast. Therefore, because they're smart, have branding and don't have serious competition, they DON'T have to take the risk. And why would they, who would blame them? They can wait until the company is almost completely de-risked before they move in. (I guess an argument here is that it's a good thing that the early stage investing industry is small and less risky here. If they succeed more will come.)<p>The other investors here (the wall streeters turned VCS) just don't get it. They're not investing, as you say, in "change the world" ideas. They're investing in stuff that can make money right away, which is probably why they ask about pricing prematurely.<p>NYC is frustrating in this respect, and it's easy to see why you're thinking about the West Coast. They're just way more intelligent, early-stage investors. That's changing though, I believe. It just sucks to be a startup in this sort of purgatory. The more Ron Conway's that come to the east the better!

<i>I hate Boston. Would never live there. So ignoring that city, where are you going to find, ohh, let's say Speech Engineers?</i><p>Why hate Boston? I would disagree. Boston's a great city to live in. It's much smaller than NYC so you can walk from one end to the other, is a lot more scenic, and my favorite part of all is that it isn't gritty/dirty like NYC is (unless you head out to Boston's outskirts like Ashland/Brighton/Somerville). Whenever I've visited NYC, all of the pretty parts (outside of Central Park) were tucked away in some place most people can't afford. Being rich in NYC looks like fun, but most people aren't rich.<p>NYC feels like an extension of an office cubicle to me. Crammed buildings. "Rat Race" economics in full effect. No nature, no beauty. You're insulated inside a sea of cement and brick. The only thing that's missing are the metal bars.<p>IMHO of course. Boston isn't perfect either, but I wouldn't dismiss it as a startup hub. Great universities, plenty of talented people available. No, it's not Silicon Valley, but an admirable alternative none-the-less. NYC certainly is too, regardless if I personally like it or not.

Matt, I'm reprinting my reply on your blog here:<p>Duuuude, NO! Or at least, that's what I want to scream at you after reading this. But it is hard for me to refute your logic around investors. Of course, SV has a larger and older network. Can't deny that. But, of course, in SV there are also waaaay more entrepreneurs vying for VC dolla bills. Having spent time in both locations, I wouldn't say it's any easier to raise funds in SV, although they do have more smart money for sure.<p>But now with FRC, Flybridge, and Founder's Collective (among many others) stepping up in NYC, I think we're just seeing the beginning of an awesome growth curve.<p>Plus, haven't you been reading Dave McClure's blog? It's not about the tech, it's about the design and marketing. Which NYC has in SPADES.<p>Alright dude, enjoy SV!

Sorry to hear about your feelings re: Boston. I really enjoyed it during my trip this week and briefly considered moving as FC has an office in Cambridge.<p>I do, however, feel your ecosystem pain. NYC is such a money town, and while there are pockets of sun, air, &#38; water here and there, they don't instantiate enough to be completely nourishing.<p>That said, culture evolves and history re-writes itself with every passing second. Given time, I can see the city reaching her potential as a startup hub; she will make her inexorable way forward. Certainly it's time that neither you nor I can afford to let slip by, but if it's not people like you and I (&#38; other like-minded folks) who help move this city forward, people who give a damn and follow passion up with action, who's it going to be?<p>I realize that you've got to put your company first, but the two (help NYC/grow company) aren't mutually exclusive. For instance Mouse.org -- I'll be chatting with them soon, &#38; if SpeakerText is still in town, would love to place a capable high school intern from one of their squads with you.<p>We (NYC entrepreneurs &#38; investors alike) might make more progress if we could set aside more than a couple hours a month to work concertedly on building culture and making history.

This article is almost completely 100% opposite to my own experience raising money in NYC.<p>There's plenty of good angels here - largely entrepreneurs who have been successful with their own businesses. I talked to a number of them one-on-one and never paid to pitch.<p>There's plenty of good early-stage venture capital firms here - yes, fewer than Silicon Valley, but there's fewer startups to compete with.<p>Raising money from early-stage firms here was a relatively straightforward process. The deal terms were clean, and the valuation was adequate. (Trust me, you want clean terms and an adequate valuation over a high valuation under a ton of preferences anyway. Keeps your options open.)<p>Recruiting was also easy - I largely hired people I'd worked with before at other startups, or who came recommended to me by people I'd worked with before at other startups.<p>The differentiating factor, I suspect - because personally, I'm nothing particularly special - is that I worked at a few startups in NYC and got to know people over a few years before founding my company. (Like Chris Dixon wrote a while back, there's a time to learn and a time to earn.) I suspect this is largely true for Silicon Valley as well.

Having lived in both NYC and the Bay Area for extended periods of time, I would say that at least in terms of rent and location, that there are many more options for running a start-up cheaply in the Bay Area. You might be able to find a decent deal on housing in, say, Astoria, but if you look in Silicon Valley, Berkeley, Oakland, or even certain areas of SF, you'll find many cheaper options that give you twice the space and are just as conveniently located.

I don't it helps that most startups here in NYC are pretty lame, ripoffs of yelp or really weak ideas. I have been very unimpressed and stayed away from both startups and wall st.

this is a great freaking post. smart notes on all points.

a take on this from the Founder's Perspective...