TE
科技回声
首页24小时热榜最新最佳问答展示工作
GitHubTwitter
首页

科技回声

基于 Next.js 构建的科技新闻平台,提供全球科技新闻和讨论内容。

GitHubTwitter

首页

首页最新最佳问答展示工作

资源链接

HackerNews API原版 HackerNewsNext.js

© 2025 科技回声. 版权所有。

Why suburbia sucks

81 点作者 goodJobWalrus将近 9 年前

26 条评论

rdtsc将近 9 年前
It might be unpopular here, and I feel slightly guilty saying it, but I like suburbia.<p>Mine has wide streets, plenty of tall trees, it is quiet. I like flowers in my yard, etc. I like my neighbors, but they are not within literally an arms length on each side of me every day.<p>Unlike probably most people here who grew up in suburbs, then perhaps started to hate it and moved to one of the coasts, to a city, I grew up in a city in an apartment. Proximity to stores, public transport and being able to walk is nice. But crime, full public transport during rush hour, noisy neighbors, or simply being flooded by neighbors from the top, crowding, dirty streets, etc. Even grocery shopping was annoying, yeah could walk to the store, but couldn&#x27;t bring home a car trunk&#x27;s worth and not worry about for another week.<p>So rationally, on a general scale, I can understand why suburbia sucks. But as an individual, I don&#x27;t plan on moving to a city, the trade-offs are not adding up for me.
评论 #11881139 未加载
评论 #11881147 未加载
评论 #11881237 未加载
评论 #11881094 未加载
评论 #11881108 未加载
prostoalex将近 9 年前
The author does a decent job describing the suburbian plight, but doesn&#x27;t delve into the reasons <i>why</i> deep enough. An older article ascribes suburbian development to peculiarities of US economic policy:<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theamericanconservative.com&#x2F;urbs&#x2F;the-conservative-case-against-the-suburbs&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theamericanconservative.com&#x2F;urbs&#x2F;the-conservative...</a><p>&quot;The sad reality is that, despite the marketing, the suburbs were never about creating household wealth; they were about creating growth on the cheap. They were born under a Keynesian regime that counted growth from government spending as equivalent to that coming from private investment. Aggressive horizontal expansion of our cities allowed us to consistently hit federal GDP and unemployment targets with little sophistication and few difficult choices.<p>That we were pawning off the enormous long-term liabilities for serving and maintaining all of these widely dispersed systems onto local taxpayers–after plying municipalities with all the subsidies, pork spending, and ribbon cuttings needed to make it happen–didn’t seem to enter our collective consciousness. When all those miles of frontage roads, sewer and water pipes, and sidewalks fall into disrepair–as they inevitably will in every suburb–very little of it will be fixed. The wealth necessary to do so just isn’t there.&quot;
评论 #11880729 未加载
评论 #11881870 未加载
评论 #11880736 未加载
alienth将近 9 年前
To each their own. I&#x27;ve lived in cities and suburbs, and I personally greatly prefer the latter. I&#x27;m not alone - I promise.<p>It&#x27;s fine if some, or even most, think that suburbia is hell on earth. Criticize suburbia all you like. Don&#x27;t live there. Go someplace you enjoy. Also, try not to assume that your feeling on this matter is objectively correct.
评论 #11881101 未加载
paul_f将近 9 年前
Suburbia is popular because people enjoy living in suburbia. It&#x27;s annoying when people write articles like this and don&#x27;t bother to talk to people who live there and find out why.
评论 #11881418 未加载
评论 #11881116 未加载
niftich将近 9 年前
Classic suburbia was desirable because it promised living in a newer house with a private yard and a garage, on a low-traffic street, in an ethnically and socioeconomically homogenous neighborhood zoned to a well-performing school. Automobile dependence was a feature to empower the car-owning suburbanite and to restrict the casual exfiltration of people from the city into the suburbs. (These fears, that good-for-nothings will take public transit to cause trouble in the suburbs crop up to this day.)<p>As suburbs age, their advantages decline. The houses are no longer new, traffic (on all but the leaf-node cul-de-sacs) has increased. When one suburb is built out, the urban area spreads outward, and newer suburbs and exurbs are created. Those that can afford to move do so, slowly decreasing the average income of the neighborhood, which correlates strongly with school performance. Desirability keeps declining in turn.<p>Some suburbs can avoid this fate by becoming large employment centers, and then we call them edge cities instead (e.g. Irvine, Tysons, Bloomington).
kylec将近 9 年前
As someone who lives, and prefers to live, a car-centric lifestyle (as opposed to walking or taking public transportation), most of the points in this article don&#x27;t bother me. I think this is just another rehash of the &quot;cars are bad&quot; argument that keeps making the rounds.
评论 #11881234 未加载
评论 #11881138 未加载
balls187将近 9 年前
When I was single-ish, I loved living in the heart of Seattle.<p>Now that I have a family, I really love living in the burbs, for pretty much all the reasons that irritated me about living in the heart of a big city. Having a young infant really changed my priorities.
amyjess将近 9 年前
Sorry, but I prefer suburbia over everything else, and I can&#x27;t stand to live in a city.<p>I like wide-open spaces, a lack of noise, and cheap spacious housing. Cities just make me claustrophobic, and I can&#x27;t stand it. I absolutely cannot tolerate having anyone else live above or below me, and noise drives me up the wall like nothing else. I&#x27;ve got a big-ass house for considerably less than $1 per square foot per month, I have no noise, and I like the aesthetics of the area around me. Also, the crime rate is very low, and I don&#x27;t have homeless people constantly demanding I give them money and then shouting epithets at me when they find out I don&#x27;t carry cash (that happened multiple times a day back when I used to work downtown; it hasn&#x27;t happened even once since I started working in the suburbs again).<p>All in all, cities are nice places to play tourist and visit in small doses, but I&#x27;d rather live in the suburbs.<p>Edit: I&#x27;ll also add that I&#x27;m openly LGBT, and I&#x27;ve heard horror stories from other LGBT people, even those who live in very liberal cities, about some of the things that get shouted at them on the street in urban environments. Even in a liberal place like Boston, you&#x27;re going to have punks shouting slurs at you on the street if you&#x27;re openly LGBT, yet I live in suburban Texas and nobody has shouted a single homophobic or transphobic epithet at me in the suburbs. Everyone is polite and friendly to me. I feel safe here. I don&#x27;t care if it&#x27;s just an act and they&#x27;re just being polite to my face because they&#x27;re taught to be polite to everyone even though they&#x27;re going to talk about me behind my back; just as long as I don&#x27;t have to hear the abuse, I&#x27;m fine.
ThrustVectoring将近 9 年前
Suburbia represents a few trillion dollars worth of malinvestment, IMHO. You can even trace the spread of suburbs back to the subsidies and incentives that created them. The tax deduction on mortgages, along with Fannie Mae et al, were explicitly designed to increase home ownership. Extraneous housing will get built in that environment, and the only question is where. Undeveloped areas have a much easier time giving concessions to developers, so that&#x27;s where they&#x27;re going to build.<p>Overall, the fix is some combination of a land-value tax, anti-NIMBY ordinances, subsidy removal, and infrastructure downgrades. Explanations for each:<p>Land-value tax: the unimproved value of land is approximately equal to the value created by building infrastructure and creating valuable economic areas. This aligns incentives better than existing tax structures, and has various other benefits that economists really like.<p>Anti-NIMBY: the overall effect of NIMBY policies is two-fold - it makes undeveloped areas relatively more attractive, and it enriches current residents of an area at the expense of society as a whole.<p>Subsidy removal: often, when silly things are happening, it&#x27;s because there&#x27;s a subsidy or tax reason that boils down to &quot;we are willing to pay you to do silly things&quot;. It&#x27;s just as true for building suburbs as it is for removing windows from vans, shipping them from Germany to the US, and then re-installing those windows.<p>Infrastructure downgrades: a certain intensity of land use makes only so much infrastructure make sense. If there&#x27;s not enough people benefiting from a road to pay for asphalt, it needs to be gravel. Sucks for the people there, but it&#x27;s even less fair for everyone else to pay for their asphalt privileges.
rconti将近 9 年前
&quot;Reasons that this particular author hates cars&quot; is a bit more like it.<p>Of course, if you pick the worst of everything of suburbia, you can &quot;prove&quot; that it sucks. But the author utterly fails on a large number of points, such as proving that humans like to feel enclosed by buildings on both sides such as on Saint-Germain, and that they utterly hate being able to actually see the sky like in the &quot;middle of nowhere&quot;. And hey, he hates GarageHouses because they worship at the altar of the car. How terrible. Tsk, tsk. Of course he hates that ugly house&#x27;s façade, but he&#x27;s unable to prove that tacky design is a necessary consequence of suburbs.<p>I live in a suburb. The houses are not all the same. I love cars and motorcycles; we&#x27;ve got 4 motorized vehicles at the moment. None of them fit in the garage because we don&#x27;t have some absurd cookie cutter house. We don&#x27;t have an absurd cookie cutter house, because that doesn&#x27;t fit our aesthetic.<p>We live in a relatively quiet neighborhood that is, yes, zoned residential, but we&#x27;re also a block from restaurants and a bar and a grocery store. We don&#x27;t have winding meandering streets that get you lost; we&#x27;re literally 2 blocks from the freeway.<p>Oh, and I can and do bike a few miles to work despite the fact that public transit sucks.<p>I love visiting cities, but could never live in one. Guess what? I don&#x27;t want shared walls. I don&#x27;t want to have to worry about where I&#x27;m going to park my cars or whether the windows will be intact when I return, or whether I&#x27;ll be kept awake by the sounds of mixed-use blissful commerce happening beneath me.<p>He&#x27;s right about so many things but just falls victim to boring old tropes. I also lived almost-spitting-distance to a grocery store in an apartment once. Thanks to a 10ft high brick wall, I had to walk 5 minutes out of the complex, 5 minutes around, and 5 minutes back in the direction of the store; 15 minutes to go what was really a few hundred feet as the crow flies. Of course it&#x27;s absurd, so I didn&#x27;t keep living there. But this does not make suburbs hell. It makes poor design choices hell.
评论 #11881067 未加载
randallsquared将近 9 年前
Suburbs are personal space for the home.<p>If, out in public, you feel uncomfortable when someone you don&#x27;t know stands close enough that you could touch elbows with them, you may prefer suburbs to density.<p>If, when you hear someone unexpectedly yelling nearby, your first reaction is &quot;let&#x27;s see what the trouble is&quot; rather than &quot;let&#x27;s see what the excitement is&quot;, you may prefer suburbs to density.<p>If you would prefer scheduling to spontaneity in interactions with people you don&#x27;t live with, you may prefer suburbs to density.<p>If you would like to avoid learning to sleep through sirens and yelling, you may prefer suburbs to density.<p>If you laughed when you read &quot;People feel vulnerable and uncomfortable in open areas with ill-defined margins.&quot;, you may prefer suburbs. ;)<p>On that last: I think it really sums up the whole article that they present those two images in section 6 and then try to explain why &quot;people&quot; feel more at ease with the Saint-Germain photo. They don&#x27;t try to explain why some people prefer wide open spaces, and I get the impression it&#x27;s because they don&#x27;t really believe anyone does. All these people are really seeking out homes to buy in places they know they&#x27;ll be unhappy? But maybe that isn&#x27;t it.<p>Oh, wait, they do consider that people actually say they like having more space, in 7. They don&#x27;t seem to believe it, though, remarking that it&#x27;s important how usable the space is. But it really isn&#x27;t: in fact, for those of us who like lots of personal space, having large nearby areas which are clearly unsuitable for most human activity helps put us at ease. If you see an adult in a drainage ditch, there is a short list of reasons why they&#x27;d be there, and any of those reasons justifies becoming involved to see if they need help, or whatever. If you live in a dense city and someone is hanging out next to your window, which is an arm&#x27;s length from the sidewalk, they could be trying to open it, or... it could be any hour of any day. If you live in the pictured suburbs and someone is hanging out next to your window, there&#x27;s less uncertainty.<p>&gt; useless frontages, pointless greenspace between compatible land uses, as well as chain-link fences, concrete barriers, and drainage pits<p>Complaining that the moat isn&#x27;t chlorinated and has smelly monsters in it misses the actual purpose of the moat.<p>There&#x27;s a lot to like about cities, but a lot to dislike as well, and those things push a lot of people to the suburbs.
dionidium将近 9 年前
His last point about regional planning can&#x27;t be emphasized enough. The city I live in is entirely independent of its surrounding county, which itself is a patchwork of incorporated and unincorporated municipalities (and where the vast majority of people choose to live). This bifurcation causes all sorts of fundamental planning issues that harm the region.
st3v3r将近 9 年前
You know, I&#x27;ve never liked articles which take the position that X sucks, or tries to say that X sucks. There are some things that don&#x27;t really have any redeeming qualities, but those things are few and far between. Most of the time it&#x27;s just that this person doesn&#x27;t like it. I&#x27;m not much of a fan of suburbia either, but there are plenty of others who do like what suburbia offers, and don&#x27;t like densely urban areas.
评论 #11880384 未加载
ArkyBeagle将近 9 年前
Accusing suburbs of being lassez-faire is quite a miss, I think. There is quite a bit of subsidy, there are lobby groups for it, the very act of zoning itself is extremely political and the rents exploitation arrangement is quite...vivid. Throw in HOAs ( which are written into deed contracts ) and it&#x27;s significantly less than free.<p>The George Romney inspired expansion away from the 20% down, 30 year mortgage to what ended in 2008 was an effort to tie people down to a mortgage for reasons of, roughly, social control. If you read Haber &amp; Calomiris &quot;Fragile By Design&quot; - they&#x27;re quite conservative - you get a better picture of it.<p>I love the suburbs. Because if I play my cards right, I get to be a beneficiary to much of all that.
notacoward将近 9 年前
This almost exactly mirrors the points made by _Suburban Nation_ in 2000. If you&#x27;re truly interested in this topic, I highly recommend reading the original instead of the online Cliff Notes.
评论 #11880324 未加载
fiatmoney将近 9 年前
Suburbia is a defensive design. Big houses &amp; lots, and lack of public transport, means that it tends to be more expensive and requires reliable access to a car. Low density means that blight doesn&#x27;t spread as quickly, and geographically-selected organizations (in particular school districts) don&#x27;t change as quickly, and they&#x27;re also selecting membership from the same groups that can afford the real estate and transport. HOAs explicitly prioritize maintaining property values.<p>This all selects for higher-quality neighbors.<p>There are ways to achieve this in urban settings, but it tends to require more direct, onerous, and legally iffy regulation.
评论 #11881255 未加载
ocdtrekkie将近 9 年前
It &quot;sucks&quot;, stated as a fact. But so many people voluntarily choose to live there.
评论 #11880652 未加载
评论 #11880478 未加载
评论 #11880587 未加载
评论 #11880410 未加载
0xdeadbeefbabe将近 9 年前
I must sound like an alien, but what is suburbia? How do I know if I live there?
评论 #11881022 未加载
评论 #11880664 未加载
sboak将近 9 年前
James Howard Kunstler gave an incredibly sharp, funny talk called &quot;The ghastly tragedy of the suburbs&quot; on both the history and design problems of the suburbs. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.ted.com&#x2F;talks&#x2F;james_howard_kunstler_dissects_suburbia?language=en" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.ted.com&#x2F;talks&#x2F;james_howard_kunstler_dissects_sub...</a>
poozer305将近 9 年前
Pretty sure this is copied from another article. Remember seeing this exact same post a month ago or so on here.
评论 #11880572 未加载
评论 #11880843 未加载
评论 #11880519 未加载
kasey_junk将近 9 年前
Suburbia is too broad a category for meaningful conversations to happen around. I assure you the low crime&#x2F;good school stereotype for instance is not universal.
AnimalMuppet将近 9 年前
Why do I prefer suburbia? Because I found out that my family life was more peaceful when each child had their own bedroom. I can&#x27;t afford that downtown.
评论 #11899158 未加载
thescriptkiddie将近 9 年前
I&#x27;m not usually a fan of articles about &quot;Why X Sucks&quot;, because almost invariably I think X doesn&#x27;t suck as much as the author thinks. It&#x27;s like I&#x27;m hard-wired to disagree with any headline that tries to make an assertion. But this is one case where I think we can all unequivocally agree that suburbia <i>sucks</i> in a way so profound that it escapes description.
combatentropy将近 9 年前
This reminds me of one of Paul Graham&#x27;s essays, &quot;Made in USA,&quot; <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;paulgraham.com&#x2F;usa.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;paulgraham.com&#x2F;usa.html</a>, where a friend visiting from Italy remarks that American cities are so ugly. He goes on to explore what America is good at and what it is not so good at.
pnathan将近 9 年前
As I ponder the suburban&#x2F;urban&#x2F;rural matter, I come to a pretty blunt conclusion - in order to have a functioning society over the next 150 years, we need to effectively outlaw exurbs and suburbs or make them <i>prohibitively</i> expensive.<p>We need to prioritize solving climate change; prioritize effective resource distribution; prioritize central management at the provincial&#x2F;federal level; prioritize integrations of humanity into high-density regions. This will boost effectiveness of the tax dollar per square mile, as well as collocating more tax dollars in census zones, so having <i>more</i> dollars per mile. Vast amounts of functionally unsustainable infrastructure - from roads, to schools, to governmental structures have been built that is not fundable at the level we are asking it to perform at.<p>This needs to change at the federal level, and aggressively.<p>Fundamentally there are repeated precedents in US history for this kind of centralized planning: the two big waves previously are homesteading and suburban funding via Fannie&#x2F;Freddie and post-WW2 home loans. The US needs to do it again.<p>Having lived in the suburb and rural worlds, I understand their viewpoint - and it is valid, but doesn&#x27;t have the mathmatics to sustain it - but my perspective is that a profound slow-moving crisis is upon us; the only real solution is to start shutting down the suburbs and urbanize as hard as possible.<p>We&#x27;re not in the 1890s or the 1950s anymore; our housing policy needs to address the functioning reality of 2016 and the challenges we face today.
评论 #11880937 未加载
评论 #11880825 未加载
评论 #11880848 未加载
评论 #11881047 未加载
scythe将近 9 年前
I think one reason that suburbia exists in America in its present form is that local politics is corrupt everywhere. The two-party system degenerates into a one-party system in any city where local public opinion is strongly left (most coastal cities) or right (Deep South) of the American body politic. There are some advantages to two-party systems, but the consensus opinion among political scientists is that one-party democracy is a lie. The result is balkanization, as dissatisfaction with local politics causes large municipalities to decline as wealthy individuals move to smaller municipalities with more responsive governments. You can watch this happen in real-time if you pay attention to discussions on NextDoor or participate in local politics in most other ways.<p>For an example I&#x27;m familiar with, let&#x27;s look at San Jose. It starts with this unelected guy:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;A._P._Hamann" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;A._P._Hamann</a><p>&quot;They say San José is going to become another Los Angeles. Believe me, I&#x27;m going to do everything in my power to make that come true.&quot;<p>This led to a huge backlash in 1962 and the eventual election of anti-development mayor Norman Y. Mineta. As people fled San Jose, revenues declined; in 1983, the San Jose School District went bankrupt.<p>If you go to any city in the country -- San Francisco, Boston, Chicago, Miami, New York, Austin, whatever -- you&#x27;ll hear constant complaints about corruption and a lack of effective political participation. It&#x27;s everywhere, and it&#x27;s been getting steadily worse since the Southern Strategy created the modern two-party miasma.