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Defending Our Brand

1346 点作者 alexbilbie将近 9 年前

59 条评论

grellas将近 9 年前
The points made by ISRG seem well-taken and, if there is a formal fight over this, it should prevail given the facts as it recites them.<p>There is a general lesson here for startups as well.<p>If you have an important mark, do consider doing an intent-to-use (ITU) application earlier rather than later to prevent poaching of the mark by others.<p>If you haven&#x27;t actually used the mark in commerce (e.g., if you are in pure development phase), anybody can go out and file an ITU application for your mark and thereby effectively poach it - even if the person doing it is just trying to extort you (of course, they won&#x27;t say this is their motive). During this phase, you are vulnerable to such poaching risks. For the vast majority of startups, it probably doesn&#x27;t matter because no one cares about the typical mark or marks they plan to use when there is nothing yet noteworthy about them. But it can and does happen. Autocad got poached in this fashion when it first started. I had a client that had the domain name gmail.net, planning to use if for &quot;graphics mail&quot; back in the day and they could have blocked Google had they filed a &quot;Gmail&quot; ITU application (they didn&#x27;t). Particularly if your mark is distinctive and fanciful, and tied to a credible venture, you should not be lax on this issue. At least <i>give it some careful thought</i> even if your decision is to take the poaching risk to avoid what you see as unnecessary up-front costs on legal items. Remember: an ITU application gives priority over someone who has not yet used a mark and it gives it to anyone and his uncle who happens to file it even if they have done nothing yet in your field.<p>Once you begin to use a mark in interstate commerce, then you get common law protections by which the person who is first to use a mark in a given geographical area automatically gets priority to the mark with that area. This happened with an outfit called Amazon Books in the Minneapolis area at the time Amazon.com launched and they eventually got a settlement payout from Amazon for infringement of their common law trademark rights in that area by the bigger organization. Thus, if you are indeed using a mark in this way, and someone comes along and tries to register a mark (whether ITU or otherwise), you keep your priority over the late arrival and can sometimes even block them from getting the registration (or have it set aside through a formal legal fight). But this is a path with many potential pitfalls. Unless your actual use was open, prominent, and notorious, you may have proof issues to establish it or to establish its extent. Even if you can prove first use and broad extent, you still may have to fight the latecomer and incur large legal expenses in the process. Moreover, if you have not registered your mark, you do not get a &quot;presumption of validity&quot; for it and this leaves it more vulnerable to a legal argument that the mark is not protectible at all (meaning that many people can use it without infringing on others&#x27; rights). Or it can be argued that it is at most entitled to weak protection so that a use by another is a slightly unrelated field will not cause customer confusion and hence not infringe even if the mark is protectible. And so on and so on. The situation is just not clean in this scenario or at least can more readily be gummed up by a determined adversary who has &quot;lawyered up.&quot;<p>As someone who has worked for years with early-stage startups, I would be the last to say &quot;go out right away and spend away on legal things&quot; to cover a bunch of theoretical risks. This poaching risk, for most startups, remains primarily theoretical and should not cause you to have to run out and spend a bunch of money on trademark filings before you know if you even have a viable venture. But, for the <i>right</i> cases (good mark, credible venture), it usually pays to be attentive to this issue up front and eliminate the risk through some proactive action.<p>ISRG is non-profit and its use of this mark was open and widespread. So I can see why they did not go out and incur trademark filing costs to protect a mark that I assume they believed no one could in good faith possibly challenge. This was probably the right judgment to make for their situation. Yet, in hindsight, we can see that the failure to do their own filing has left them vulnerable - not to poaching (as I said, they likely will win) but to having to go through an otherwise unnecessary legal fight to defend what is legitimately theirs.<p>It is unfortunate and I hope people will give support as needed. In all too many cases, underfunded people or organizations who are in the right do wind up getting overwhelmed by people who simply have more resources and who are determined to make life difficult. Even with a likely winning legal position, someone in this position can wind up having to do some compromise (such as a trademark co-existence agreement) giving the other party significant rights just to resolve the fight. Better to avoid that pressure here if it means enough to the relevant community.
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chasb将近 9 年前
Well done Comodo, this motivated me to donate to Let&#x27;s Encrypt.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;letsencrypt.org&#x2F;donate&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;letsencrypt.org&#x2F;donate&#x2F;</a>
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NelsonMinar将近 9 年前
Comodo is not a trustworthy security company.<p>Their browser extensions break browser security: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=11021633" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=11021633</a> <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=9091917" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=9091917</a><p>They issued fraudulent SSL certificates in 2011: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.schneier.com&#x2F;blog&#x2F;archives&#x2F;2011&#x2F;03&#x2F;comodo_group_is.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.schneier.com&#x2F;blog&#x2F;archives&#x2F;2011&#x2F;03&#x2F;comodo_group_...</a>
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CommanderData将近 9 年前
Learning this, I will not renew my certs with Comodo. This is childish behaviour on Comodos part.<p>If it helps I&#x27;ll advise any companies I consult to do the same until this changes. Money is the only thing this company will understand.
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natch将近 9 年前
I&#x27;m pretty sure the lawyer would have known about letsencrypt.org and their Let&#x27;s Encrypt project before filing this.<p>So that being said, reading the fine print of what the lawyer had to sign in order to submit the application, shouldn&#x27;t the lawyer be vulnerable to perjury charges?<p>Excerpt from <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;tsdr.uspto.gov&#x2F;documentviewer?caseId=sn86790719&amp;docId=RFA20151020074647#docIndex=3&amp;page=1" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;tsdr.uspto.gov&#x2F;documentviewer?caseId=sn86790719&amp;docId...</a> :<p>The signatory believes that: if the applicant is filing the application under 15 U.S.C. § 1051(a), the applicant is the owner of the trademark&#x2F;service mark sought to be registered; the applicant is using the mark in commerce on or in connection with the goods&#x2F;services in the application; the specimen(s) shows the mark as used on or in connection with the goods&#x2F;services in the application; and&#x2F;or if the applicant filed an application under 15 U.S.C. § 1051(b), § 1126(d), and&#x2F;or § 1126(e), the applicant is entitled to use the mark in commerce; the applicant has a bona fide intention, and is entitled, to use the mark in commerce on or in connection with the goods&#x2F;services in the application. The signatory believes that to the best of the signatory&#x27;s knowledge and belief, no other persons, except, if applicable, concurrent users, have the right to use the mark in commerce, either in the identical form or in such near resemblance as to be likely, when used on or in connection with the goods&#x2F;services of such other persons, to cause confusion or mistake, or to deceive. The signatory being warned that willful false statements and the like are punishable by fine or imprisonment, or both, under 18 U.S.C. § 1001, and that such willful false statements and the like may jeopardize the validity of the application or any registration resulting therefrom, declares that all statements made of his&#x2F;her own knowledge are true and all statements made on information and belief are believed to be true.
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ceocoder将近 9 年前
Comodo - if you are reading this, you lost about 3000 USD worth of business from me. And someone else is going to gain the same.<p>Drop this nonsense. It helps no one.
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intsunny将近 9 年前
This is disappointing, but not surprising given that Lets Encrypt threatens a large and out-dated revenue stream for Comodo. Thankfully Lets Encrypt is backed by Mozilla and the EFF, they have the resources to defend the brand.<p>Good luck guys!
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alanh将近 9 年前
The CEO of Comodo has apparently replied on a Comodo forum, and boy, it&#x27;s a doozy. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;forums.comodo.com&#x2F;general-discussion-off-topic-anything-and-everything&#x2F;shame-on-you-comodo-t115958.0.html;msg837411#msg837411" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;forums.comodo.com&#x2F;general-discussion-off-topic-anyth...</a><p>&gt; <i>Isn&#x27;t this why we have Trademark laws and courts? If they have right to it then more than happy to comply. But these kind of Intellectual copyrights can&#x27;t be decided over a forum post or twitter account or trying to get your loyal but &quot;blind&quot; followers to bully another enterprise via their tweets. It won&#x27;t work! This is not wild west and there are legal framework and courts for these kind of disputes. So lets all stop being the judge and jury and follow the law!</i><p>&gt; <i>One a separate note, since we are talking about protecting intellectual property, there is no law protecting business models. When Lets Encrypt copied Comodo&#x27;s 90 day free ssl business model, we could not protect it. Lets encrypt could have chosen 57 days, 30 days or any other number for the lifetime of their certificates. But they chose to use Comodo&#x27;s 90 day Free SSL model that we established in the market place for over 9 years!!! We invented the 90 day free ssl. Why are they copying our business model of 90 day free ssl is the question! Comodo has provided and built a Free SSL model that give SSL for free for 90 days since 2007! Trying to piggy back on our business model and copying our model of giving certificates for 90 days for free is not ethical. They clearly wanted to leverage the market of Free SSL users we had helped create and establish and that&#x27;s why they created exactly same 90 day free ssl offering. So why did they choose 90 day????? That is the question!</i><p>&gt; <i>What they have is nothing new. We have been giving 90 day free certificates since 2007. Unlike them, our certificates are managed, even the free ones, so that consumers are protected. If a certificate is being used maliciously we revoke it. They don&#x27;t! How is that making internet safer??? Actually consumer are less safe with their certificate because if it is used maliciously they don&#x27;t revoke (Unmanaged)!</i><p>&gt; <i>Lets get the facts right guys! We are the good guys that have been giving free SSL certificates since 2007 and managing them!</i>
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josephb将近 9 年前
You can only imagine it&#x27;s being done for malicious reasons.<p>It doesn&#x27;t seem like there is any good reason for Comodo to do this, other than try protect revenue loss.
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pi-rat将近 9 年前
<p><pre><code> [x] First they ignore you, [x] then they laugh at you, [x] then they fight you, [ ] then you win. - Mahatma Gandhi</code></pre>
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tomcorrigan将近 9 年前
I would love to see Mozilla (a big backer of Let&#x27;s Encrypt) drop the Comodo root certs from their alpha and beta Firefox builds for a couple of days to show them how ugly things get when both sides play nasty.
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AdmiralAsshat将近 9 年前
I&#x27;d love to see Comodo&#x27;s defense of this.<p>By &quot;defense&quot; I mean their PR spin, of course. I doubt they&#x27;ll actually come right out and say &quot;Let&#x27;s Encrypt is a threat to our revenue and we&#x27;re attempting to trademark the name under-the-radar so that we can sue them out of existence.&quot;
markonen将近 9 年前
CloudFlare uses Comodo certificates–millions of them, I imagine–and that probably makes them a commercially significant Comodo customer. As a CloudFlare customer with a Comodo-issued certificate, I hope they’ll try to convince Comodo of the value of doing the right thing.
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impostervt将近 9 年前
This post made me hover over the green lock icon for this page:<p>&quot;Verified by: COMODO CA Limited&quot;
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dtemp将近 9 年前
Ah, the death throes of a big company that suddenly had its business model invalidated.<p>Well, not entirely; there are market niches that Let&#x27;s Encrypt doesn&#x27;t cover: org-validated and extended validation certs, wildcard certs, anyone who needs a cert that expires in years, ECDSA certs (for the time being)...<p>But theres no doubt that their revenue will be significantly cut, they&#x27;ll lose shareholder value and need layoffs.<p>Their industry did it to themselves; a TLS cert company should have 5 engineers, 5 customer support people, and 2 managers, and should charge about 10% of what they do.
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the_mitsuhiko将近 9 年前
There are also others trying to cash in on this. StartSSL recently started a &quot;Start Encrypt&quot; product which is based on similar ideas.
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Fej将近 9 年前
The bullshit the CAs pull never ceases to amaze me.
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dordoka将近 9 年前
Well, there you have it Comodo. Issued new certificates for my humble domains even thought they&#x27;re not yet expired. And there you have it Let&#x27;s Encrypt, I&#x27;ve donated <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;letsencrypt.org&#x2F;donate&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;letsencrypt.org&#x2F;donate&#x2F;</a>
nacs将近 9 年前
Seems HN&#x2F;YCombinator is using Comodo:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;thumbsnap.com&#x2F;i&#x2F;5ZkbUd6F.png?0623" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;thumbsnap.com&#x2F;i&#x2F;5ZkbUd6F.png?0623</a>
greenspot将近 9 年前
Out of curiosity: Why didn&#x27;t Letsencrypt applied for a trademark right at the start?<p>That this happens was quite foreseeable and occurs quite often if people forget to secure trademarks (I know this won&#x27;t be a popular opinion because most as I like Letsencrypt and their outstanding service)
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RubenSandwich将近 9 年前
It is very disheartening that Comodo, a seller of SSL certs, is attempting to steal some of the attention of Let&#x27;s Encrypt has put into making a more secure internet. Instead of trying to weasel their way in front of Let&#x27;s Encrypt a better strategy, in my personal opinion, would be to offer services on top of SSL. (Installing and managing SSL certs is still something a lay person cannot do.)
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Jamieee将近 9 年前
What a scummy business practice. I will not be renewing my remaining Comodo certs.
davidgerard将近 9 年前
FWIW, at $DAYJOB we&#x27;ve been actively getting rid of our Comodo certs and replacing them with Let&#x27;s Encrypt certs, because the Comodo certs don&#x27;t work with certain older Android versions that we have to support - but Let&#x27;s Encrypt&#x27;s all just work.<p>If others are doing the same, this would be motivation for Comodo.
Titanous将近 9 年前
Comodo&#x27;s CEO has responded on their forums: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;forums.comodo.com&#x2F;general-discussion-off-topic-anything-and-everything&#x2F;shame-on-you-comodo-t115958.0.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;forums.comodo.com&#x2F;general-discussion-off-topic-anyth...</a>
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misiti3780将近 9 年前
I will never use a Comodo cert again.
edoceo将近 9 年前
I&#x27;ve been using LE for all the certs. Free, easy, secure. Hooray!<p>Cheers to LE for standing tall.<p>Please donate to LE, EFF.
Nilzzon将近 9 年前
That&#x27;s it, I&#x27;ve cancelled all our Comodo certificates!
jrockway将近 9 年前
As part of my branding consulting services, I could totally come up with some non-trademarked-but-like-totally-better names. For instance:<p>1) We gonna encrypt u<p>2) Allow us to encrypt!<p>3) I CAN HAZ NCRYPTON?
Nilzzon将近 9 年前
That&#x27;s it! I&#x27;ve just replaced all our Comodo certificates.
l1n将近 9 年前
Talk about an abuse of the trademark system.
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scrollaway将近 9 年前
I&#x27;m cancelling an order for a code-signing certificate with Comodo. This is disgusting behaviour on their part.<p>Can someone recommend a good provider for code signing certs?
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pcora将近 9 年前
The worst possible move by a competitor. Not cool Comodo.
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Animats将近 9 年前
US trademarks are easy to register.[1] The whole process is online and starts at $225. I hold several. You don&#x27;t need a lawyer unless you&#x27;re in some crowded area (&quot;AAAAA Plumbing&quot; would be a crowded area) or confusingly similar to an existing trademark.<p>There&#x27;s no reason for a startup to not register a trademark.<p>[1] <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.uspto.gov&#x2F;trademarks-application-process&#x2F;filing-online" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.uspto.gov&#x2F;trademarks-application-process&#x2F;filing-o...</a>
axg将近 9 年前
We should remove Comodo from our trusted CAs
AngeloAnolin将近 9 年前
Next thing we&#x27;ll likely see is that Comodo getting hacked &#x2F; breached and their data exposed, making them the least trusted computing security firm.
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symfoniq将近 9 年前
The organization I work for has used Comodo certs in the past, but antics like this ensure they&#x27;ll never receive another dime from us.
drumttocs8将近 9 年前
I&#x27;m not sure what happened with Comodo in the past couple of years. I used to love their firewall and &quot;secure&quot; browser products- but then they stripped features from their free firewall option, and added sponsored links to the address bar autocomplete results! Literally a complete 180 from impressions of privacy and security I originally had of the company.
diegorbaquero将近 9 年前
Never again comodo, donating to LE
eeeeeeeeeeeee将近 9 年前
I would expect no less from Comodo. Terrible company and product.
kevindeasis将近 9 年前
Who do you guys trust for your wildcards needs? Assuming you were to build a super cheap side project on the weekends and you needed subject alternative names for your first-level subdomains.
ionised将近 9 年前
God damnit, I really need to find a decent alternative to Comodo Firewall and HIPS, something that offers similar granular control.<p>They&#x27;re far too shady these days.
juandazapata将近 9 年前
Sad. This reminds me of high school where I was constantly being bullied by the big guys.<p>- Oh, I like that what you have. You know what? I WANT it. And I&#x27;m going to take it just because I&#x27;m bigger than you.<p>They can go to hell. I&#x27;m not renewing my certs with those twats. Bullying is not fine just because is a company instead of a person doing it.<p>Let&#x27;s encrypt, the community is with you. I just donated to your cause.
chrisked将近 9 年前
will switch all my comodo certs once they expire.
mcms将近 9 年前
Updated original post:<p>Update, June 24 2016<p>We have confirmed that Comodo submitted Requests for Express Abandonment for all three trademark registration applications in question. We’re happy to see this positive step towards resolution, and will continue to monitor the requests as they make their way through the system.<p>We’d like to thank our community for their support.
MasterYoda将近 9 年前
This behaviour really piss me off.<p>Someone having a proper email to comodo so it is possible complain directly to them? (1)<p>I really hope alot of people will complain directly to them so they see this is not ok in no ways and they doing the right thing.<p>(1) “contact us&quot; on there homepage is just emty for me on my mobile for some reason. Therefore the question.
markbao将近 9 年前
This is why people hate CAs.
kefka_p将近 9 年前
I&#x27;ve uninstalled some software I&#x27;ve paid good money for as a result of this behavior. Further Comodo will net exactly zero recommendations from me until this behavior is rectified.<p>Utterly intolerable.
yeldarb将近 9 年前
Why did Lets Encrypt not previously register a trademark of their own?
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tripzilch将近 9 年前
Seems a pretty clear case that Let&#x27;s Encrypt will win easily. The crazy part is the legal system with the pay-wall before justice.
24gttghh将近 9 年前
Well, good thing members of the EFF are on the Technical Advisory Board at Let&#x27;s Encrypt, and the board of Directors at ISRG.
ktdrv将近 9 年前
Aaaand the Controversies section of Comodo&#x27;s Wikipedia page gained another entry.
jagger27将近 9 年前
Didn&#x27;t LE announce they were going to do a name change a few months ago?
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tszming将近 9 年前
Dear Comodo: your competitor is GoDaddy, not Let&#x27;s Encrypt :)
dkarapetyan将近 9 年前
Fuck comodo and their sleazebag tactics.
lighttower将近 9 年前
Comodo&#x27;s behavior is shameful. How can we punish them? Is there a way to move away from using their services?
86646将近 9 年前
Lol. Free publicity for LE. Good job Comodo.
artursapek将近 9 年前
That is a hilariously weak move
simbalion将近 9 年前
Those bastards. I tried emailing sales@comodo.com but their mailing server falsely bounced my message saying there was a virus attached (I use anti-virus on my mail server.)<p>I called them and told their tech support guy about their broken mail server, and told him to check out letsencrypt.org and see how his company is trying to infringe on trademarks to bully their open-source competition, and that he should find a better employer.
rsspbrry将近 9 年前
Sounds like Comodo should get the GoDaddy treatment: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;arstechnica.com&#x2F;tech-policy&#x2F;2011&#x2F;12&#x2F;victory-boycott-forces-godaddy-to-drop-its-support-for-sopa&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;arstechnica.com&#x2F;tech-policy&#x2F;2011&#x2F;12&#x2F;victory-boycott-f...</a>