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The American Dream Isn’t Alive in Denmark

63 点作者 monort将近 9 年前

12 条评论

mrweasel将近 9 年前
It&#x27;s always somewhat weird to compare countries, because mentality in each country is so very different.<p>For instance:<p>&gt; But despite this far greater investment in young children and public colleges, Danish children of high-school graduates are still extremely unlikely to go onto college.<p>While that may be true, it&#x27;s not the point. The point is you should have the option to go to college, regardless of parents background or financial status.<p>This bit is also a little over the top:<p>&gt;Based on this finding, the researchers conclude that welfare policies may reduce college enrollment. Denmark makes it more comfortable to be poor and less lucrative to be rich, so many young people decide to end their education after high school.<p>The wording make it sound worse than it is. There&#x27;s an extremely limited set of job you can hold in Denmark, with just a high school education. While there are certainly more &quot;uneducated&quot; young people in Denmark, than most of us believe, it not really a career path. It will almost certainly put you on unemployment benefits, which makes you poorer than most people care for.<p>It should be noted that there are also other option after high school than just college.
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jernfrost将近 9 年前
Claiming it is all about taxes and transfers is severely twisting the facts. Look up the difference between the lowest paid workers and CEOs in nordic countries compared to the US. It is a huge difference. Our engineers make about the same as American engineers, our doctors and surgeons make significantly less and so does the CEOs. However the McDonalds workers, shop clerks etc make several times the hourly salary of an American McDonalds worker.<p>So mobility from the bottom to the top might be no better, but the need to do move is far less as people make decent wages across the whole spectrum. It isn&#x27;t purely about money either. The lower percentage of American have significantly more problems in terms of education, knowledge, health, government influence etc than their Nordic peers.
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sveme将近 9 年前
Governments can only do so much to increase intergenerational social mobility. When I look at my peers and myself, it is obvious that it is extremely difficult to emancipate yourself from the role model that is your parents. They are not necessarily role models you follow consciously, but they determine the borders of your imagination. If your family comes from a worker&#x27;s background, it is extremely hard to imagine that there might be another path in life for you - you simply follow what your kin has been doing in their lifes.<p>The German society can be in principle classified into three social strata: workers (factory, craftsmen etc.), office employees and academics. This comes from the strong early selection into the three-parted school system, which determines at age ten or twelve whether you have the cognitive abilities to succeed in one of these three tracks. So at age ten or twelve, you are either selected to join Hauptschule, Realschule or Gymnasium. The first school prepares you to become a worker, car mechanic, hair dresser etc. The second school prepares you to become an office employee, the third prepares you for a life of an academic. Now the twist is, that it is generally your social stratum that decides which school you attend and therefore which track you will follow, thereby perpetuating this low intergenerational social mobility for a long time. Your parents often decide that you will be going to Realschule, which is what they themselves attended - or Gymnasium when your parents are academics.<p>Escaping this track that was selected for you at a young age is much harder than just following it. An example: my parents followed both the second track: Realschule, then an <i>Ausbildung</i> to become office workers. My sisters both followed this track and had therefore lives nearly identical to that of our parents. I was the only one to follow the track to become an academic, and with the lack of role models in my vicinity, this was always accompanied by self doubt and simply a lack of being self-confident in the academic environment.<p>Getting rid of the influence your social environment has on the borders of your imagination is the really hard part for any educational system.
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Broken_Hippo将近 9 年前
The American Dream includes things like everyone having rights and opportunities to move towards being happy and successful, not necessarily whether or not they do better than their parents or not. It seems that it is more that they do, indeed, have the opportunity to do so. Instead most folks find themselves a victim of their circumstances which takes away from opportunity. I find the entire framing of the article to be misguided. And as a sidenote, I never felt that was possible living in the US.<p>Then I moved to Norway. Similar to Denmark, with a lot of shared values and history, but of course there are differences. Even as an immigrant, if I work at it, I have the opportunity to become successful. The definition of success is a bit different, and it seems at the higher rungs it can take a bit more work to mirror what Americans found &#x27;successful&#x27;. The term is very different. I most definitely have the opportunity for happiness, despite the monetary &quot;success&quot;. It might be less important for everyone to go to college proper, even, due to some specialized training happening before folks reach 18. College depends more on if you do the work to meet the entry requirements, and if you didn&#x27;t, there are still ways for you to go later on. It isn&#x27;t a bad thing to work retail for the rest of your life - and you won&#x27;t be as poor working such a job. A lot of this &quot;socialism&quot; folks complain about make it easier to reach a version of the American Dream even if you aren&#x27;t &#x27;successful&#x27; by american standards.
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gaius将近 9 年前
Any discussion of economics or social mobility in Denmark that doesn&#x27;t mention Janteloven is missing the mark <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.m.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Law_of_Jante" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.m.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Law_of_Jante</a>
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jonlandrum将近 9 年前
<i>&quot;Denmark’s economic philosophy seems to be that the market is an unfortunate socioeconomic lottery system&quot;</i><p>Exactly this. People born to wealthy families have literally won the socioeconomic lottery without trying.
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InclinedPlane将近 9 年前
I&#x27;ll just butt in here to add a huge caveat that almost never gets brought up in these sorts of articles: Denmark is small, really small.<p>It has a population of only 5.7 million, if it were part of the US it would fit in between the 11th and 12th largest cities (Atlanta and Detroit).<p>So imagine, for example, reading an article about the state of things in Detroit, Atlanta, or Houston, and imagine the author attempting to make big, sweeping conclusions based on that data. I suspect you&#x27;d likely take any such conclusions with a grain of salt much more than you would when you hear about what&#x27;s going on in Denmark, because we all know Denmark is a huge and important country. Denmark is neat and all, with plenty of reasons to justify people who don&#x27;t live there finding it interesting, but it isn&#x27;t necessarily a land that one can directly map onto the entire nation of America (across a gulf of about two orders of magnitude in population alone) and expect them to be comparable.
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aedron将近 9 年前
It may be that social heritage is a big factor in determining a person&#x27;s life path, but that doesn&#x27;t mean economic factors aren&#x27;t. The fact remains that in Denmark, any kid, no matter how poor, who has talent and puts in the effort, has nothing stopping him from getting a degree from the top universities in the country. Tuition is free and s&#x2F;he will even get paid a stipend to attend.<p>Perhaps most working class kids will stay working class, but others, e.g. immigrants, or children of substance abusers, who have the talent but not the resources, can go straight to the top if they just do their homework. And it works. Examples are all over the place.
flexie将近 9 年前
Yesterday I saw the same study mentioned in Washington Post and I got really bummed about how journalists always seem to miss the point or at least chose an angle that twists everything (1).<p>This article from The Atlantic gives a more nuanced description of the study&#x27;s findings.<p>1: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.washingtonpost.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;wonk&#x2F;wp&#x2F;2016&#x2F;08&#x2F;03&#x2F;theres-only-one-way-to-save-the-american-dream&#x2F;?tid=sm_fb" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.washingtonpost.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;wonk&#x2F;wp&#x2F;2016&#x2F;08&#x2F;03&#x2F;there...</a>
nerdponx将近 9 年前
&gt; But Denmark’s economic philosophy seems to be that the market is an unfortunate socioeconomic lottery system, and so the country compensates the poor with generous transfers paid by high taxes on the rich.<p>This to me is the heart of the Sanders economic philosophy as well. Everything else is an attempt to convince people that it&#x27;s a _better_ philosophy.
timwaagh将近 9 年前
they didn&#x27;t mention where pretax social mobility is highest. that&#x27;s something I&#x27;m interested in. Perhaps the american dream is most alive in a place we don&#x27;t expect.
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IOT_Apprentice将近 9 年前
Wow. What titlegore. A different country has different culture?