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How the Arab World Came Apart

306 点作者 s3b将近 9 年前

22 条评论

6stringmerc将近 9 年前
How did it come apart? Almost exactly like Dick Cheney thought it would 20 years before cheering for the invasion. From an episode of Meet The Press in 2014[1]:<p><i>CHUCK TODD:<p>All right, let me ask you a couple of quick questions. I want to play for you an interesting clip of you 20 years ago about Iraq and Saddam Hussein. Take a look.<p>DICK CHENEY (ON TAPE):<p>That&#x27;s a very volatile part of the world. And if you take down the central government in Iraq you can easily end up seeing pieces of Iraq fly off. Part of it the Syrians would like to have to the west, part of Eastern Iraq the Iranians would like to claim, fought over for eight years. In the north you&#x27;ve got the Kurds. And the Kurds spin loose and join with the Kurds in Turkey then you threaten the territorial integrity of Turkey. It&#x27;s a quagmire if you go that far.</i><p>[1] <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nbcnews.com&#x2F;meet-the-press&#x2F;meet-press-transcript-december-14-2014-n268181" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nbcnews.com&#x2F;meet-the-press&#x2F;meet-press-transcript-...</a>
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sevenless将近 9 年前
The NYTimes itself is also a considerable part of the reason, considering Judith Miller, Friedman, Krauthammer and many others propagandized hard for invading Iraq.
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return0将近 9 年前
Long piece , but it fails in that it does not give a coherent message. Pieces of stories here and there are not history. First of all , lets stop calling it Arab Spring. If anything it&#x27;s the arab Autumn of civil wars, where all arabs are united only in their resentment of the west. Secondly, let&#x27;s talk about people, their souls, aspirations, and culture instead of political history. Given that these states were built as western protectorates, their history should not be a good guide for their future. Clearly the approach to colonialism&#x2F;interventionism that the US takes is a failure, compared to the colonialism of the British for example (e.g. Jordan). The arab world has always been far too divided to able to draw clear borders around their states. Their only hope for peace is long-term economic prosperity and transition to secularism. Until then, tyranny worked.<p>This piece may be fun to get through your flight, but it should offer a holistic perspective.
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anonu将近 9 年前
My view on the Middle East: it has been a playground for the powers of the world to muck around. The fall of the Ottoman Empire at the end WWI allowed the region to be carved up between the French and the British. Secret agreements like Sykes-Picot cemented borders that should never have been there. After WWII a considerable amount of support was put behind Israel (and rightly so). However, the ongoing conflict and lack of a 2-state solution to this day continues to be a rallying call for millions of Arabs against the West. To keep the Arabs in check - the West continuously undermines their governments (which may be led by strongmen - but this is better than the alternative which we have seen). In addition, the West assumes it understands the intricate complexities of the demographics on the ground. Mucking around only exacerbates the problems.
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DanielBMarkham将近 9 年前
So far this is good. There&#x27;s a lot of depth.<p>One nit:<p><i>&quot; Much as the United States Army and white settlers did with Indian tribes in the conquest of the American West, so the British and French and Italians proved adept at pitting these groups against one another, bestowing favors — weapons or food or sinecures — to one faction in return for fighting another. The great difference, of course, is that in the American West, the settlers stayed and the tribal system was essentially destroyed.&quot;</i><p>I think it&#x27;s a mistake to only back up to the end up WWI and start running the tape there. The Arab world has a rich and nuanced history full of the exact kinds of tribal tensions we see now going back hundreds of years. There&#x27;s a reason the Ottomans were the way they were -- and it has nothing to do with Colonialism. There are also great parallels between what&#x27;s happening with the Arab spring and what happened when other great powers consolidated their hold over the Arabs and then left. Just citing one example seems like a tremendous disservice to the history. Also the meme of &quot;It was the Sykes–Picot Agreement&quot; has some truth but is extremely easy to lean too much on. With this amount of verbiage being produced, I&#x27;m expecting some alternative lines of reasoning to be explored.<p>Looking forward to more of the series!<p>(Apologies -- looks like the entire thing is here? Wow! I&#x27;ve heard of long-format writing before, but this is kindle material. Tremendous amount of work here.)
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hedonistbot将近 9 年前
This piece was a huge waste of time. Following the personal stories of a number of individuals in most of the Middle East countries does not give any information to the reader about any of the geopolitics or power plays in the region. It just leaves the reader confused and depressed that nothing can be done and we should probably leave this matters to people more knowledgeable. Is this some new form of journalism. And to see this in a NYT publication...<p>Also NY Times has so much *to answer for in their coverage of the events that it kind of make sense that they are avoiding any real analysis of the issues.
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not_a_terrorist将近 9 年前
tl:dr 100 pages:<p>1) People are fucking poor and hungry (extreme wealth inequalities) 2) Salafi&#x2F;Wahhabi (Saudi) funding of islamism 3) Antediluvian hatred between people (it goes, way, way, way farther back than Sykes-Picot)
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pipio21将近 9 年前
For me it is extremely simple: They have an extraordinary amount of oil:Iraq,Iran, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, natural gas: Libya,Iran or they are in the middle of strategic places to build oil ducts: Syria, Afghanistan.<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.energybc.ca&#x2F;images&#x2F;profiles&#x2F;oil&#x2F;reserves.jpg" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.energybc.ca&#x2F;images&#x2F;profiles&#x2F;oil&#x2F;reserves.jpg</a> <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;List_of_countries_by_natural_gas_proven_reserves" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;List_of_countries_by_natural_g...</a><p>The West needs much more energy that what they have. They have industry and without energy their society will collapse.<p>Anything else is secondary. Most of those places are desert, and have not enough technology to protect themselves from Western (or Eastern)plundering.<p>Those countries can only life in peace as protectorates from powerful industrialized countries, like Saudi Arabia(de facto protectorate of USA, its oil can only be paid in USD), or Iran(protectorate of Russia and China) or Syria(Russia).<p>Libya itself had a lot of Chinese civilian presence, but not military. So UK, USA and France thought it was going to be easy to take the country by force, like they did.<p>They also tried with Syria, but Russia had an army there. They tried hard, remember Assad having chemical weapons so the West needed to &quot;save&quot; and &quot;free&quot; the country? Putin reacted fast to that. The need of creating a fly exclusion zone(prior to the invasion, like in Libya), again Putin reacted faster sending his own airplanes.
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Salamat将近 9 年前
This is just another propaganda piece to obscure what is really happening.To make sure that no Arab spring takes place, the US has sold all its allies all the weapons they might need to crush any opposition to their fiefdoms. The New York Times never explains to us who those moderate rebels are. &quot;The alliance says it is fighting “terrorists,” a name it uses for all of Mr. Assad’s foes, from the extremists of the Islamic State to more moderate rebels who came out of the Arab Spring protest movement against his rule.&quot; <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;2015&#x2F;10&#x2F;16&#x2F;world&#x2F;middleeast&#x2F;syrian-forces-and-russian-jets-attack-rebel-held-towns.html?ref=todayspaper" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;2015&#x2F;10&#x2F;16&#x2F;world&#x2F;middleeast&#x2F;syrian-fo...</a> &quot;Donald Trump Praises Dictators, But Hillary Clinton Befriends Them&quot; &quot;Clinton has described former Egyptian dictator Hosni Mubarak and his wife as “friends of my family.” Mubarak ruled Egypt under a perpetual “state of emergency” rule that involved disappearing and torturing dissidents, police killings, and persecution of LGBT people. The U.S. gave Mubarak $1.3 billion in military aid per year, and when Arab Spring protests threatened his grip on power, Clinton warned the administration not to “push a longtime partner out the door,” according to her book Hard Choices. After Arab Spring protests unseated Mubarak and led to democratic elections, the Egyptian military, led by Abdel Fattah el-Sisi, staged a coup. El-Sisi suspended the country’s 2012 Constitution, appointed officials from the former dictatorship, and moved to silence opposition. Sisi traveled to the U.S. in 2014 and met with Clinton and her husband, posing for a photo. The Obama administration last year lifted a hold on the transfer of weapons and cash to el-Sisi’s government....Egypt is far from the only military dictatorship that Clinton has supported. During her tenure as secretary of state, Clinton approved tens of billions of dollars of weapons transfers to Saudi Arabia – including fighter jets now being used to bomb Yemen. Clinton played a central role in legitimizing a 2009 military coup in Honduras, and once called Syrian dictator Bashir al-Assad a “reformer.” And in return for approving arms deals to gulf state monarchies, Clinton accepted tens of millions of dollars in donations to the Clinton Foundation. Clinton has also boasted about receiving advice from Secretary of State Henry Kissinger, who was notorious for his support of dictators. According to records from the National Security Archive, Kissinger oversaw a plot to assassinate the Chilean President Salvador Allende and install the brutal dictator Augusto Pinochet.&quot;
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jomamaxx将近 9 年前
Ha ha ha ... ha ...<p>The &#x27;Arab World&#x27; was never together. Ever.<p>All of the &#x27;Anti-American Imperialism&#x27; kids here should remember that the bulk of the &#x27;Arab World&#x27; is &#x27;Arab By The Sword&#x27;.<p>Arabic is spoken across North Africa, in particular because of <i>Arab Colonialism</i> of the 9th-12th centuries.<p>Not since then has the &#x27;Arab World&#x27; been anything resembling &#x27;together&#x27;.<p>The Turks kept them (and there was not much of them) under the thumb, after that the Europeans tried to maintain some degree of balance, now the Americans.<p>The most recent and damaging decision by the US was Obama&#x27;s withdrawl of troops in Iraq. Of course, invading in the first place - but Obama simply by virtue of having 10K soldiers sitting on a base &#x27;behind the wire&#x27; doing nothing, could have kept forcing Malaki to play nice with the Sunnis. The moment Obama withdrew, Malaki purged Iraq of Sunnis, and the Sunni tribes decided that ISIS was &#x27;less worse&#x27; than their own government and there you have it.<p>As far as Syria ... this is a function of the &#x27;Arab Spring&#x27; more than anything, and I don&#x27;t think anyone can say anyone else is directly responsible for that. Other than the standard: Assad, Saudis, Iran etc...<p>Once things stabilize in Syria, maybe things can start to settle down.
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susi22将近 9 年前
Slightly off topic:<p>Clicking &quot;Simplify Page&quot; on the google chrome printing dialog makes this a fantastic formatted PDF. I&#x27;m impressed (be it Chrome&#x27;s doing or NYT&#x27;s).
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bogomipz将近 9 年前
&quot;The Arab World&quot; - What does that even mean? Arab is a language distinction, a language of which there are many dialects. As Arabic is spoken from Western Sahara all the way east to Oman that pretty much disqualifies Arab World from having geographical significance. Arab also does not denote religious faith as there are Arab Jews, Arab Christians(Coptic) and of course Arab Muslims.<p>There was once briefly a concept of Pan-Arabism but that died when Gamal Abdel Nasser died in 1970.<p>Does a Muslim Arabic speaker from Morocco really have any sense of kinship with an Arabic Christian(a Coptic) from Egypt? I am going to say probably not. Probably not any more than two Slavic language speakers in different parts of Europe do. Have the Saudis taken in any Arab refugee &quot;brothers&quot; from Syria and Iraq? No. Have the Arab Emirates? Again no.<p>So what is this &quot;Arab World&quot; that the NYTimes and the rest of the media are so fond of using as a point of reference? Countries carved up as part of the Sykes Picot agreement? Can they not come up with a more meaningful distinction? This matters.
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giis将近 9 年前
Just last week, I watched this documentary called &quot;Saudi Arabia Uncovered&quot; to understand its current state. Its on youtube.
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punnerud将近 9 年前
To get pictures in the article, remove the last part of the url: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;interactive&#x2F;2016&#x2F;08&#x2F;11&#x2F;magazine&#x2F;isis-middle-east-arab-spring-fractured-lands.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;interactive&#x2F;2016&#x2F;08&#x2F;11&#x2F;magazine&#x2F;isis-...</a>
known将近 9 年前
Triffin dilemma. <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bloomberg.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;features&#x2F;2016-05-30&#x2F;the-untold-story-behind-saudi-arabia-s-41-year-u-s-debt-secret" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bloomberg.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;features&#x2F;2016-05-30&#x2F;the-untold...</a>
d23将近 9 年前
I wish long form, informative articles like this had a way to donate a small amount of money to show appreciation. I don&#x27;t read any particular news outlet enough to get an exclusive subscription with them, but I&#x27;d love to reward them for good individual pieces.
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Hortinstein将近 9 年前
I really hope this gets put into a podcast&#x2F;audio format, would love to ingest it on a commute
nowey将近 9 年前
I think even farther back with the overthrow of the Shah in Iran it started
Cyph0n将近 9 年前
It&#x27;s fun to see the armchair historians and political theorists pop up. HN is becoming more like Reddit by the day. Stick to discussing technology guys ;)
ishener将近 9 年前
tl:dr
mms1973将近 9 年前
I recommend to read Raphael Patai&#x27;s classic &quot;The Arab mind&quot; to try to understand. Don&#x27;t drink the NYT koolaid.
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transfire将近 9 年前
Just ask Lawrence. Same shit, different day.
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