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Unconscious determinants of free decisions in the human brain (2008) [pdf]

62 点作者 jimothyhalpert7将近 9 年前

9 条评论

hacker42将近 9 年前
I liked this interview with Judea Pearl on free will: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=sg7Oq4suH_E" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=sg7Oq4suH_E</a><p>The summary is basically that to our best knowledge there is no free will because decisions are caused by neural activities which in turn are caused by sensory input and noise (but unlikely by quantum noise). However, humans have evolved a strong sense of agency because that&#x27;s simply an efficient way to reason about machines that produce actions in response to the entirety of their sensory input (especially regarding parent child relationships and mutual behavior correction). This neuroarchitectural bias is essentially an illusion of free will that is so firmly wired into our brains that we cannot escape it. It is also the reason why the idea of a God comes so intuitively to many of us: an invisible actor which can be used to explain inexplicable chains of causation and can serve as a very effective metaphor for behavioral error correction (as a proxy for actual social repercussions, and hence relieved from all the complicated and hence fallible power relations to actual social error correction instances).
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joe_the_user将近 9 年前
I&#x27;ve heard of this phenomena from &quot;The User Illusion&quot;[1], so it was known of (in less detail) years before 2008.<p>And the thing about it is, the <i>idea</i> that a person reaches a decision unconsciously several moments before they consciously &quot;feel&quot; they &quot;make the decision&quot; is threatening to the idea of &quot;free will&quot;<p>But what exactly is being threatened? Does a person expect their decision to reached without any physical precursors? Do they expect one magic addition of pros and cons to be registered at the moment they subjectively experience &quot;a decision&quot;? I&#x27;m using hyperbole not to discount the importance of this phenomena but to highlight how you have a &quot;highly value experience&quot; that is simultaneously extremely vague. Psychologists would do well to study <i>why</i> people value such experiences.<p>[1] The User Illusion: Cutting Consciousness Down to Size, Tor Nørretranders, <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.goodreads.com&#x2F;book&#x2F;show&#x2F;106732.The_User_Illusion" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.goodreads.com&#x2F;book&#x2F;show&#x2F;106732.The_User_Illusion</a>
JohnLeTigre将近 9 年前
People tend to miscomprehend freedom as an act that is performed according to our will without any form of constraint or predisposition.<p>If this was the case, freedom would not exist since our whole life experiences predisposes us to unconsciously exercise our freedom of will in certain ways.<p>Here is an amusing example:<p>I&#x27;m 12 and I want to try using a big person&#x27;s hammer for the first time. My annoying little brother is beside me (as always... sigh).<p>In mid-air, as I swing the hammer towards the nail, he yells (right in my ear): &quot;You&#x27;re going to hammer in that nail and because I knew this before it happenned, you didn&#x27;t decide to hammer it on your own&quot;.<p>In this example, the lack of causality is evident and the amount of LBAF is enormous (LBAF: Little Brother Annoyance Factor)<p>The parallel can be made with the mind. It&#x27;s not because we become cognitively aware of our choices fractions of seconds after some brain activity that seem to be decisional that we didn&#x27;t &quot;will&quot; it, for all we know, this activity <i>is</i> the gist of willing.<p>Furthermore, there is no indication that our cognitive experiences do not mold our subconscious behaviours, so much that this subconscious activity naturally corresponds to our actual will.<p>Clearly, it is not sufficient to break a misconceived definition of will in order to claim that freedom of will does not exist, with the argument used, one would also need to prove that this subconscious brain activity is incoherent with our conscious activity.
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dopu将近 9 年前
Supplementary information and methods for the paper can be found here [0]. A more condensed version of the methods (in presentation form) can be found here [1].<p>[0]: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nature.com&#x2F;neuro&#x2F;journal&#x2F;v11&#x2F;n5&#x2F;extref&#x2F;nn.2112-S1.pdf" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nature.com&#x2F;neuro&#x2F;journal&#x2F;v11&#x2F;n5&#x2F;extref&#x2F;nn.2112-S1...</a><p>[1]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;courses.cs.ut.ee&#x2F;MTAT.03.292&#x2F;2014_fall&#x2F;uploads&#x2F;Main&#x2F;Unconscious%20determinants%20of%20free%20decisions.pdf" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;courses.cs.ut.ee&#x2F;MTAT.03.292&#x2F;2014_fall&#x2F;uploads&#x2F;Main&#x2F;...</a>
mettamage将近 9 年前
For me, taking a meditation retreat in total silence showed me a lot about how thoughts just spontaneously jump up in my mind. Normally, I don&#x27;t notice it that often. And in normal situations I tend to act on a lot -- but not all -- of those thoughts which then invokes a thought train which may or may not invoke an action.
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conjectures将近 9 年前
Really interested in this topic, not sure about this paper:<p>- Downplays how inaccurate the classifiers are (55-60% accuracy according to the figures).<p>- No table of actual left &#x2F; right frequency pushing frequency. So we can&#x27;t compare this to the empirical rate of chance (they assume 50% - I would bet £100 that it&#x27;s not 50%).<p>- Exclusion policy of people who don&#x27;t push buttons the right way was inadequately justified, particularly given the above.<p>- Vague explanation of their statistical methods, even in the supplementary material. In particular I can imagine several ways to interpret what they said about the ANOVA - it shouldn&#x27;t be up to me to guess what they did, the paper should tell me.<p>- No use of hold-out data sets.
cronjobber将近 9 年前
I find it easy to replicate this for myself. I cannot stop me from sort-of imagining the movement before the &quot;decision&quot;.<p>After a few repetitions, it became apparent why this may be so. It&#x27;s the instructions. I&#x27;m to move the finger &quot;immediately&quot;. My brain prepares the movement because it wants to do it &quot;immediately&quot; after &quot;deciding&quot;.<p>Here&#x27;s a more relaxed setup. Alternate between looking at two fingers at a relaxed pace. At any moment, decide to move the finger you&#x27;re currently looking at <i>after silently counting to five</i>.<p>Introspectively, I find no imagined movement before the decision with this task.
privong将近 9 年前
This research uses fMRI, but recently some bugs were found[0] which have called into question a lot of the result. This includes, I think, many of the results regarding free will.<p>Is there an expert here who can comment on the accuracy of this 2008 study, given the more recent news about bugs in fMRI software?<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=12032269" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=12032269</a>
Hondor将近 9 年前
Common experience tells us we make decisions without consciously thinking about them all the time. When you do something a bit silly and someone asks &quot;why did you do that?&quot;, you try to make up reasons when really you didn&#x27;t know why you did it. It was some subconscious process.