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Developer hiring and the market for lemons

448 点作者 mkeeter超过 8 年前

35 条评论

mgkimsal超过 8 年前
It seems that &quot;great&quot; developer is somewhat a synonym for &quot;public&quot; developer. I&#x27;m not sure how companies would just &quot;know&quot; someone is &quot;great&quot; otherwise. And yes, not all publicly known developers are necessarily great (or even good), but I&#x27;m not sure how one would recognize a &#x27;great&#x27; developer without that person also having some degree of publicness to them.<p>And yet, I&#x27;ve known more than a handful of developers who are really solid, great people to work with, and I&#x27;d like to work with again. None of them have ever blogged, podcasting, presented at conferences nor run a public repository on github. Yet by many definitions of &#x27;great&#x27;, they fit the bill, but not the sort of &#x27;great&#x27; that would mean companies would just &#x27;know&#x27; of their greatness, and go out of their way to hire&#x2F;recruit them.
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sixhobbits超过 8 年前
I think the author is talking past Joel to some extent. Joel&#x27;s emphasis is not on good developers not changing jobs, but more about the fact that they very seldom go through a traditional application process of sending in a cv to a hiring manager. Instead, these people &quot;travel as fast as beer&quot; when they&#x27;re looking for a new position - they mention it to a friend or colleague who has a beer with someone else who sends over a job offer.<p>It can seem paradoxical that companies are saying that they can&#x27;t find people to hire, and even with the tech boom there are developers who can&#x27;t find jobs (at least ones that they are completely happy with), but this is because a huge percentage of CVs on desks are from people who have needed to take the time to send off job applications, and are often therefore representative of the not &quot;great&quot; developers.
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CoolGuySteve超过 8 年前
I think nobody&#x27;s done more damage to the developer hiring market than Joel Spolsky. His inductions about the liquidity of &quot;great developers&quot; seem to have become true mostly because he was the only one writing about it in the 90&#x27;s.<p>But a lot of it is anecdote and faulty assumptions. I don&#x27;t know of many other professions that have 8 hour oral exams that test the sum of all knowledge in the field with such a strong negative bias towards hiring. Or a profession that so strongly assumes ability is innate and cannot be trained.<p>It&#x27;s outrageous.
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mixmastamyk超过 8 年前
Yep I&#x27;m a fan of Spolsky in general, but the idea he supported that you must be extremely skeptical, cannot trust anyone to be a good developer, and that a bad hire can destroy a company has done untold damage to the industry.<p>Though I&#x27;m a <i>much</i> better dev now than when I started in the 90&#x27;s I had my choice of jobs back then. Now it is horrible death march for the privilege of slinging HTTP APIs, about the easiest thing a developer will ever face professionally.<p>It&#x27;s the reason why developer interviews are such a shit show, and a factor in the &quot;engineer shortage.&quot; People who can&#x27;t code with a gun to their head (ala swordfish) are excluded. Not to mention those that don&#x27;t &quot;fit&quot;, such as minorities, women, and elders.
galdosdi超过 8 年前
The author thinks that Joel is contradicting himself (since how can it be both easy and hard to tell if a developer is great?), but I don&#x27;t think so.<p>In fact, it&#x27;s hard to tell for sure how good a developer is before hiring, but easy after having worked with them for a while. This is similar to how it&#x27;s hard (as in, expensive) to be sure if a car is a lemon before buying it but easy to tell after putting 10,000 miles on it. No contradiction.<p>Unrelatedly I agree anecdotally that from a developer point of view the market for workplaces looks more like a market for lemons (it&#x27;s hard to tell if a workplace is crazy before joining it, easy afterwards, and a developer will stay a lot longer at a nice workplace than a crazy one, so most job openings are probably for places that have a high turnover for a _reason_).
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lhnz超过 8 年前
<p><pre><code> &gt; Just for example, there’s someone &gt; I’ve worked with, let’s call him &gt; Joe, who’s saved two different projects &gt; by doing the grunt work necessary to &gt; keep the project from totally imploding. &gt; The projects were both declared successes, &gt; promotions went out, they did a big PR &gt; blitz which involves seeding articles &gt; in all the usual suspects, like Wired, &gt; and so on and so forth. That’s worked out &gt; great for the people who are good at &gt; taking credit for things, but it hasn’t &gt; worked out so well for Joe. </code></pre> I have to agree with this, since many of the better engineers I have worked with frequently interview. Generally, they run out of opportunities at their current employment and need to find something new for them to grow. Also it&#x27;s often easier for them to get a pay-rise with a new job.<p>However, I wouldn&#x27;t say that there is a &quot;market for lemons&quot; for employees. Performance may well be difficult to evaluate during an interview process, but after several months of work within a company it is generally quite clear who is performing well.<p>I think the real issue is that:<p>- Employment opportunities are a &quot;market for lemons&quot;, and even if a team or project is great to work within at first, it won&#x27;t stay like this forever.<p>- If a company spots a great performer they generally don&#x27;t wish to offer them preferential treatment (more autonomy, ability to learn something new, pay rises, etc) due to its perceived effects on their peers.<p>There are all sorts of lazy heuristics that people use, and &quot;good people are never out of work&quot; is one of them. Good people do sometimes go out of work, but it will generally be to &quot;scratch an intellectual itch&quot; or to give themselves time to be extremely picky about their next job.<p>I think the way forwards is to create more supportive development cultures which allow for more room at the top (with opportunities for self-direction and with pay improving alongside efficacy) and at the bottom (with mentoring and training). This isn&#x27;t just something that might be solved by a great manager. It&#x27;s also something that we I think we should hold ourselves accountable for.
jacques_chester超过 8 年前
&gt; <i>Moishe Lettvin has a talk I really like, where he talks about a time when he was on a hiring committee and they rejected every candidate that came up, only to find that the “candidates” were actually anonymized versions of their own interviews!</i><p>I worry about this a lot when I&#x27;m interviewing candidates.<p>Basically, would I have given myself a no-hire?<p>Sometimes I think I would&#x27;ve.
throw2016超过 8 年前
The whole 10x great developer seems to be an attempt to build an elaborate mythology to con immature and young workers to work themselves to death trying to prove something that is vague, extremely subjective, illdefined and thus unattainble.<p>Let&#x27;s spice it up with 10x HR people, 10X CXO&#x27;s and 10X VPs and hell while we are at it why not throw in the 10x Barista to get Starbucks HR fired up.<p>Here is a better idea, forget the 10x developer. Show us the 10x code.
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spitfire超过 8 年前
I&#x27;ll post to this thread to simplify a lot of our discussion, tptacek also has good insight here. Listen to him as well.<p>Hunter and Schmidt did a meta-study of 85 years of research on hiring criteria. [1] There are three attributes you need to select for to identify performing employees in intellectual fields.<p><pre><code> - General mental ability (Are they generally smart) Use WAIS or if there are artifacts of GMA(Complex work they&#x27;ve done themselves) available use them as proxies. Using IQ is effectively illegal[2] in the US, so you&#x27;ll have to find a test that acts as a good proxy. - Work sample test. NOT HAZING! As close as possible to the actual work they&#x27;d be doing. Try to make it apples-to-apples comparison across candidates. Also, try and make accomidations for candidates not knowing your company shibboleth. - Integrity. The first two won&#x27;t matter if you hire dishonest people or politicians. There are existing tests available for this, you can purchase for &lt; $50 per use. </code></pre> This alone will get you &gt; 65% hit rate [1], and can be done inside of three hours.<p>There&#x27;s no need for day long (or multi-day) gladiator style gauntlets. Apply this process to <i>EVERYONE</i>, including that elite cool kid. You don&#x27;t want to exclude part of your sample population!<p>[1] <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;mavweb.mnsu.edu&#x2F;howard&#x2F;Schmidt%20and%20Hunter%201998%20Validity%20and%20Utility%20Psychological%20Bulletin.pdf" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;mavweb.mnsu.edu&#x2F;howard&#x2F;Schmidt%20and%20Hunter%201998%...</a><p>[2] Technically IQ tests aren&#x27;t &quot;illegal&quot;, but the bar courts have decided companies have to climb is so high it effectively means they are. I have spoken to a lawyer about this. You should speak with yours too, before you decide to try IQ testing.
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caseysoftware超过 8 年前
&gt; <i>Joel’s model assumes that “great” developers are sticky – that they stay at each job for a long time.</i><p>The author is missing a fundamental piece here. It&#x27;s <i>NOT</i> that the &quot;great&quot; developers will stay at the same job for a long time or that the company is great at recognizing them. It&#x27;s that their friends, colleagues, etc will recognize them and bring them along.<p>When you take a new job (at any level) at a company you like doing what you like, you will want to work with great people. Some will already be there but most likely you&#x27;ll have the opportunity to refer people in.. and you&#x27;ll go back to the people who you already know are &quot;great&quot; by whatever understanding you have.<p>If you make a compelling offer hitting the right points - money, flexibility, opportunity, etc, etc - then you&#x27;ll get the person even though they were never &quot;on the market&quot; in the traditional sense and almost definitely didn&#x27;t have to send a resume and &quot;apply&quot; in the normal sense of the word.
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szx超过 8 年前
&quot;If you hire someone with a trendy background who’s good at traditional coding interviews and they don’t work out, who could blame you? And no one’s going to notice all the people you missed out on.&quot;<p>How is it that fear of false positives keeps coming up again and again in discussions of hiring practices?<p>Considering at-will employment (is that the correct term?) is the default here, you&#x27;d think it wouldn&#x27;t be that big of a problem to get rid of an underperforming employee. I guess it&#x27;s more of a cultural&#x2F;social issue but I can&#x27;t pretend to fully understand it.
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mirkules超过 8 年前
&gt; Joel’s claim is basically that “great” developers won’t have that many jobs compared to “bad” developers because companies will try to keep “great” developers. Joel also posits that companies can recognize prospective “great” developers easily.<p>That&#x27;s not what Joel&#x27;s post said. Joel said that great developers don&#x27;t <i>apply for jobs</i> much. A great developer could have as many jobs as an unqualified one, but they rarely, if ever, need to apply to places to be offered a job there. Think of any great dev - do you think they&#x27;d send their resume someplace? No, they&#x27;d just leave, another company would get wind of it and they&#x27;d be offered a job in a heartbeat.
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heisenbit超过 8 年前
In a developer lemon market developers are hired at the lowest possible cost as their value can&#x27;t be assessed in advance. Turning this thinking around in a employer lemon market employers are selected by offered salary as that is the only solid proof-able property that distinguishes them. Two strong diametrical forces are here in play focusing the discussion on salary to the detriment of considering the total package for both sides.<p>Lemon markets exist for one-time transactions between foreign parties. Public records of companies and potential employees change this to a degree. A big name company may be able to hire at lower cost as it is on record it is not a total disaster. A public record can help to put a floor under the salary one is being offered.<p>From a developer perspective one can<p>- market skills in a way to decrease hiring risk (affecting offered min salary)<p>- market skills that are truly needed (affecting considered max salary)<p>- research the company (allowing one to reduce demanded salary e.g. huge solid growth etc.)<p>As always the power in negotiation is with the party that can afford to say no.
kafkaesq超过 8 年前
<i>&quot;See? Joel Spolsky knows the secret to hiring Great Developers. Not only that, he knows how bad things can go when you hire the complement of the set of Great Developers, namely honkin&#x27; bad, can&#x27;t-solve-a-brain-teaser about-pirates-and-blindfolds and-poisoned-bottles-and-buried-treasure to-save-their-life† Mediocre Developers. Therefore, you should buy consulting services and&#x2F;or products from Fog Creek. Because you know Fog Creek only hires Great Developers.&quot;</i><p>Was the trojan horse message behind Joel&#x27;s now-infamous Great Developers meme, which we are currently about midway through the second decade of. And that&#x27;s really all people should have read it as -- part sincere opinion; but part pure and simple marketing shtick for Fog Creek.††<p>Yet it&#x27;s taken on a life of it&#x27;s own, as we know all too well by now -- with no endpoint in sight.<p>† Such brain teasers -- and the ability to solve them right there, on the spot, with strangers staring you, and your career hanging in the balance -- being, according to JS&#x27;s unequivocal belief (until it finally became woefully unfashionable), if not absolutely necessary, at least fantastically useful and effective in telling Great Developers from Mediocre Ones.<p>†† A great, or at least an okay company, by all accounts (aside from this single, unintentedly onerous piece of marketing shtick from the early 2000s).
gravypod超过 8 年前
As a college student looking for a job, a lot of this is quite worrying. I don&#x27;t really know where to start as a junior developer and I have seen quite a bit of this mentality that &quot;we are looking for the best&quot;. Does anyone know how, from our corner, filter out companies that will do crazy stuff like make you barf up 30 sort algorithms?<p>And more importantly for my case, does anyone know where to look for companies that are willing to work around a college student&#x27;s schedule?<p>The cards seem to be stacked against us in this one.
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nhumrich超过 8 年前
Joel&#x27;s point is not neccasarily about &quot;stickiness&quot;, just the need to apply. Great developers form a network of people who know them. When they want to switch jobs, they typically don&#x27;t go &quot; open on the market&quot; and rather talk to a friend in a specific place, do an interview for formalities sake, and get hired. There was no &quot;applying&quot; or sending a resume to a hiring manager. Also, often companies go to them, not the other way around. Joel&#x27;s point is that great developers don&#x27;t need to put themselves on market at all in order to get a job.
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codingdave超过 8 年前
&quot;Great&quot; developers may be that rare. But most coding jobs don&#x27;t need &quot;Great&quot;. Most coding jobs are CRUD apps with some business logic. Toss in some UX for flavor. &quot;Good enough&quot; will do just fine in most jobs.
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kelukelugames超过 8 年前
A story on the bullet point about low pay.<p>One of the mottos painted on the company wall was &quot;We don&#x27;t want people here just for the money.&quot; The CEO put it up because they couldn&#x27;t pay a competitive rate. The hiring manager insisted they paid well. A bunch of devs left claiming they were paid near the lower end. For example, one dev received only a $1k pay increase when she was promoted from SDE1 to SDE2.<p>How can perception be so different between CEO, managers, and developers?
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yawz超过 8 年前
What it is that makes a developer great? They are expert at one technology? Multiple technologies? Fast learners? Problem solvers? Not rockstars but great team players?<p>I would argue that a lot of (if not most) companies won&#x27;t even know how to gauge long-time greatness.
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CalChris超过 8 年前
This reminds me of Joy&#x27;s Law:<p>no matter who you are, most of the smartest people work for someone else<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Joy%27s_law_(management)" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Joy%27s_law_(management)</a>
anovikov超过 8 年前
I strongly disagree with that. Best developers switch many jobs - that&#x27;s how they become great - by working on lots of different stuff and learning all the time - there are very few full time positions where you can continuously learn and actually do new things all the time and don&#x27;t become a nuisance for your co-workers. They also start their own startups, fail, and go to job market again.
dunkelheit超过 8 年前
One thing I didn&#x27;t see mentioned. What if the team simply lacks interesting work? If the team stamps out CRUD websites and the manager has somehow become convinced that the team needs &quot;great&quot; developers, he or she will have trouble hiring even if the pay is competitive.
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asheikh超过 8 年前
Where is the race equation in Joel&#x27;s claim? I am a black and a great developer. Many years ago, I worked in one of the top five tech companies in North America. My second line manger called me &#x27;a Slave&#x27; because I was working harder than my team and contributing across team. I complained about the incident, and left the company after there were no action from the top management.
hibikir超过 8 年前
I think the most important point here is that no place with more than a handful of employees will be perfect for everyone they hire, and the bigger the place, the bigger the internal environmental differences. I&#x27;ve worked at places where there was an awesome manager building a wonderful culture underneath, while another large team nearby had terrible management, considered very substandard people to be their very best, and was a nightmare to work for (and with). My idea of good people loved one team, and quit quickly when working on the other. The manager in charge of both managers never thought there was a difference, and thought both managers were great.<p>Managing one team is hard. Setting up an environment that is great for a diverse set of people (whether we are measuring that by race and gender of just by people with different values and ways of thinking) is even harder. Many people in those positions don&#x27;t spend anywhere near enough time trying to make sure they are building the right thing and instead copy each other, leading to what Dan describes.<p>None of this will change until we make breakthroughs into people management, something that, sadly, only the largest companies have resources to really look at, and the largest companies are often the most dysfunctional.
dkarapetyan超过 8 年前
&gt; Moishe Lettvin has a talk I really like, where he talks about a time when he was on a hiring committee and they rejected every candidate that came up, only to find that the “candidates” were actually anonymized versions of their own interviews!<p>Steve Yegge I think has a similar post but from a different angle and he calls this problem the interview anti-loop. Depending on who ends up on your interview panel you might get high or low marks across the board and it won&#x27;t be in any way correlated to your actual abilities.<p>Making good teams like Dan says is a hard problem mostly because recruiting is a hard problem and letting anyone other than the team handle the process is why things are broken. If you want to work with great people then you personally have to be actively involved in recruiting great people by going to conferences, going to meetups, writing blog posts like this one, etc. But that sounds very time consuming and most companies don&#x27;t think recruiting is actually an engineer&#x27;s job so they never properly budget for it in terms of training and other resources.
anindha超过 8 年前
By Joel&#x27;s logic no good developers left Microsoft and decline of Microsoft could be attributed to bad developers.<p>Neither of those is true.<p>Good developers leave companies but they apply selectively to companies and find jobs quickly.
jbapple超过 8 年前
If Dan is correct that companies often do not keep their best developers happy, what might account for Joel believing the opposite?
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Annatar超过 8 年前
<i>If it’s so easy to identify prospective “great” developers, why not try to recruit them?</i><p>Because they are not on the market, and they&#x27;re very picky as to where and most importantly, with <i>whom</i> they will work. Does someone out there honestly believe that a guy like Keith Wesolowski, Dan Price, Jerry Jelinek, or Jeff Bonwick will just shop themselves on the open market? If so, it&#x27;s time to do some extensive research on the subject, because nothing could be further from the truth.<p>Steve Jobs once put it like so: <i>A players hire A players; B players hire C players; and C players hire D players. It doesn&#x27;t take long to get to Z players. This trickle-down effect causes bozo explosions in companies.</i><p>And boy was he right; I&#x27;ve seen good companies and good, interesting jobs go down the toilet so fast, my head is still spinning from it all, years later.<p>I know how that is first hand: I don&#x27;t shop myself around on the open market, people call me, and by people I mean people I have closely worked with in the past, people which I know exactly what they&#x27;re capable of, what they know, what they don&#x27;t know, and if I accept, the whole interview process is nothing but an empty formality. It&#x27;s truly eye opening just how much of a sham-theater the entire inteview games are. The key takeaway is, if you&#x27;re good, you&#x27;ll have a renomee, and you&#x27;re unlikely to be on the open market - you come to people and people come to you. You get the job long before any would be competitors have even had a chance to apply (&quot;we must satisfy human resources policies&quot;). Dan Luu&#x27;s question is, by experience, an unlikely occurrence in this particular industry.
coldcode超过 8 年前
I liked the article but I wish this guy spent a little more time making the articles readable. Wall to wall text at a small size is sort of hard to read.
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Eliezer超过 8 年前
This article pleases the Market Economics Fairy, who rarely sees anyone thinking top-to-bottom in supply-demand balances.
raverbashing超过 8 年前
Well, first of all, companies do close, people do get tired of companies, so &quot;great&quot; developers do move.<p>At some positions, the demand is lower than the offer
bbcbasic超过 8 年前
Can someone explain his definition of great developer?<p>Is it just a competent developer who has effectively networked and marketed themselves?
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goldfishcaura超过 8 年前
For me everything boils down to: as an engineer, how well aware are you of your domain. If you are, then you know how to integrate tools and code together to produce the next invention. I&#x27;ve written a post for engineers on precisely that topic just last week: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;my.caura.co&#x2F;why-build-software-in-house-not-f3c9bc726b1" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;my.caura.co&#x2F;why-build-software-in-house-not-f3c9bc72...</a>
issa超过 8 年前
My pool for drawing personal conclusions about hiring is not deep, but in my limited experience (both in hiring and being hired) there are two things that seem to matter above all others:<p>1) How personably the candidate is. Do you want to work with this person? Does he&#x2F;she have basic social skills?<p>2) Do they have a coding-related passion project? It almost doesn&#x27;t matter what it is, as long as they have one.
sarahcr超过 8 年前
I am one of these Great Devs. Joel is correct that i will probably only apply to 4 jobs in my career. But the author is also correct and I am not sticky. I have switched jobs several times over the past 10 years. Companies will try to keep great people, but when you tell them you need a 40% raise, they will pass. I think Joel and the author understand this and actually agree.
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