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Eve: Programming designed for humans

1070 点作者 ibdknox超过 8 年前

73 条评论

jbclements超过 8 年前
I think that Eve is tackling the wrong problem.<p>Allow me an analogy: &quot;Bronk, the math designed for humans.&quot; Instead of dense algebraic expressions like &quot;3x+49&quot;, you get to write &quot;thrice the value of x plus 49.&quot; You may consider this a straw man, but I think that if you look hard at existing programming languages, you&#x27;ll see that they are all designed for humans, and that the challenge in programming is in formulating your thoughts in a precise fashion. Should languages create higher-level abstractions to allow humans to reason about programs more efficiently? Yes! But that&#x27;s not what this environment is about.<p>I <i>do</i> see one possible rebuttal to this, which would be an entirely different form of programming that is to traditional programming what google search is to the semantic web; that is, rather than specify programs precisely, we give examples to an approximate system and hope for the best. In many ways, that&#x27;s how our biological systems work, and they&#x27;ve gotten us a long way. I don&#x27;t see that happening in Eve, though.
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ibdknox超过 8 年前
Hi All!<p>Many of the folks here have been following us for a long time and we&#x27;re really excited to finally pull everything together to show you all where our research has taken us. Eve is still very early [1], but it shows a lot of promise and I think this community especially will be interested in the ideas we&#x27;ve put together. As many of you were also big Light Table supporters, we wanted to talk about Eve&#x27;s relationship to it as well [2].<p>We know that traditionally literate programming has gotten a bad rap and so we laid out our reasoning for it here. [3]<p>Beyond that, we expect there will be a lot of questions, so we&#x27;ll be around all day to try and answer them. We&#x27;ll also been doing a bunch of deep dives over the next several weeks talking about the research that went into what you&#x27;re seeing here, how we arrived at these designs, and what the implications are. There was just way too much to content to try and squeeze it all into this page.<p>Also, a neat fact that HN might be interested in:<p>Eve&#x27;s language runtime includes a parser, a compiler, an incremental fixpointer, database indexes, and a full relational query engine with joins, negation, ordered choices, and aggregates. You might expect such a thing would amount to 10s or maybe 100s of thousands of lines of code, but our entire runtime is currently ~6500 lines of code. That&#x27;s about 10% the size of React&#x27;s source folder. :)<p>[1]: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;programming.witheve.com&#x2F;deepdives&#x2F;whateveis.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;programming.witheve.com&#x2F;deepdives&#x2F;whateveis.html</a><p>[2]: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;programming.witheve.com&#x2F;deepdives&#x2F;lighttable.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;programming.witheve.com&#x2F;deepdives&#x2F;lighttable.html</a><p>[3]: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;programming.witheve.com&#x2F;deepdives&#x2F;literate.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;programming.witheve.com&#x2F;deepdives&#x2F;literate.html</a>
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grzm超过 8 年前
I think there&#x27;s potentially a lot of ways we can improve our programming environments. I like moon shots, people willing to explore new ways that are unconventional, approaching problems in different ways. I&#x27;ve followed Light Table and have been looking forward to seeing what Chris and friends come up with for Eve.<p>That said, this is feeling very grandiose. I&#x27;d like to understand more clearly where they see Eve being useful — and where Eve would <i>not</i> be useful. For example:<p>- how does one implement new algorithms? A simple example, how do I write Quicksort?<p>- can Eve be written in Eve?<p>Admittedly, I haven&#x27;t thought about this nearly as much as the Eve team has. And perhaps I&#x27;m just lacking the required imagination at this point. That said, I&#x27;d like to see these types of questions addressed. There&#x27;s nothing wrong with a tool that&#x27;s useful in a particular set of circumstances. I&#x27;d like to know what the Eve team thinks those circumstances are.
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rafaelferreira超过 8 年前
Seeing Eve&#x27;s development out in the open is inspiring. Many of the commenters are coming from positions of extreme skepticism towards new approaches to programming, probably justified by the history of the field, but I&#x27;d recommend to spend some more time looking into the research idbknox and his team have been conducting (see <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=VZQoAKJPbh8" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=VZQoAKJPbh8</a>, for instance) and how much they have iterated based on user experimentation.<p>A few questions come to mind now: 1 - This new demo, with the messaging app sample, and references to &quot;my pm wants this or that&quot; seems to point a change in positioning, from targeting non-programmers to professional programmers. Is this accurate?<p>2 - Is there a plan to integrate the grid-style or the adlibs style UI into this new iteration?<p>3 - If non-programmers are still a target, it seems to me that the ease of importing data from external sources would important to reach broad usage. Any research here?<p>4 - Html and css might be a hurdles for new users, any way Eve will help on this front?<p>(edited for formatting)
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king_magic超过 8 年前
How is this significantly different from something like Light Table? (edit: didn&#x27;t realize it was build by the people who built Light Table). It feels like a rehash of that + Python notebooks, with a bit of Xcode&#x27;s playground thrown in.<p>Problem is that despite those tools being available, I literally never use them. Ever. Nor do I have a need for them.<p>I kind of like the idea of being able to find bits of code in a larger codebase in a document-like format. That&#x27;s actually a pretty neat innovation here.<p>But beyond that, I don&#x27;t think I&#x27;d use this (edit: per comment thread conversation below, I&#x27;m upgrading this to not being sure if I&#x27;d used this, but it&#x27;s a maybe). I need an IDE that will help me through the Battle of Stalingrad, not a basic case like a police offer pulling someone over for a speeding ticket, which is what many of these kinds of next-gen UIs always seem to show.<p>Basic stuff is easy enough to accomplish right now. I don&#x27;t need a new IDE to help me add a button to each row in a list any quicker than I currently can with existing tools, and I feel like a core problem with these types of efforts are that they start with basic cases and never really progress from there - many engineering problems simply do not reduce down to adding a button to a screen.<p>That all said - I think if you pivoted and built a wiki-like overlay that could be dropped over an arbitrary codebase (e.g. extrapolate out the document-like overlay over code to document and organize a codebase), holy crap, I would instantly pay money for that, especially if it was distributed team-friendly.
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highCs超过 8 年前
I think this is awesome and I encourage this extraordinaire effort.<p>Here are my reasons:<p>1. I&#x27;ve actually coded something similar a long time ago (I think Eve is even better than my solution) and it worked. My team and I were able to make entire apps in a heartbeat.<p>2. The reason it works is because, as pg famously wrote, programmers think in the language they use. Our cognitive load and power are function of the language we think in. The key to Eve on this purpose is that you can program not only your app, but the development organisation that goes with it. Also, it is beginner friendly.<p>3. With 1. and 2., you get that Eve is related to reflectivity and homoiconicity. Maybe it is what&#x27;s behind homoiconicity: your code and your organisation share the same language.<p>I wish the Eve team the best.
DonaldFisk超过 8 年前
First impressions: I like the look of this language&#x2F;IDE. It&#x27;s not general purpose but it seems to be good at what it does. I think live programming - where you make changes to your code and immediately see the effect without having to recompile and restart your system - is the way forward. The adoption of literate programming is interesting - I think commenting code is unsatisfactory for a variety of reasons and am looking for an alternative, and Knuth&#x27;s idea might be worth building on. The other idea I like is the ability to point at a widget and find out the code that draws it - that makes debugging a lot easier.
zerker2000超过 8 年前
<p><pre><code> Instead of thousands of debugger options, let&#x27;s have a magic tool where you click on the thing that&#x27;s going wrong. </code></pre> There are reasons for the thousands of options though! Like, &quot;debug this specific object&quot; or &quot;breakpoint when this condition is satisfied&quot; exist as primitives already; there&#x27;s more complexity there than just &quot;what is the data backing this UI element&quot;. If Eve has indeed managed to get away from needing them, that is laudable, but it would be achieved by the full set of things you might want to do being blindingly obvious, not &quot;magic&quot; special-cases for &quot;I was expecting something here and I don&#x27;t see it&quot;
qwertyuiop924超过 8 年前
This is a neat idea. But I&#x27;m wary of the pitch, at least a little. I like to know what my code is doing, at least in general. So when they said &quot;programming designed for humans,&quot; that worried me: I don&#x27;t like magic, that that&#x27;s usually what &quot;programming for humans&quot; entails.
nercht12超过 8 年前
Seems to me it will have some good uses. The promo of it being &quot;more human&quot; is a stretch, yes, esp. given the actual programming language didn&#x27;t look any friendlier than any other language imo (e.g. world&lt;-[#div style: [user-select: &quot;none&quot; -webkit-user-select: &quot;none&quot; -moz-user-select: &quot;none&quot; children ...) But it&#x27;s nice of them to make a valiant effort at trying to create a new method of doing things. Reading the &quot;What Eve Is&quot; page is helpful:<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;programming.witheve.com&#x2F;deepdives&#x2F;whateveis.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;programming.witheve.com&#x2F;deepdives&#x2F;whateveis.html</a> &quot;Being explicitly designed for data transformation, there are somethings that Eve will particularly excel at...&quot; (after beta stage, of course)<p>That said, it&#x27;ll be interesting to see what software people decide to create with it and where this system excels.
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loeber超过 8 年前
I like the look of this project, and it&#x27;s in many ways inspiring, but here&#x27;s my cynical take:<p>I think that Eve won&#x27;t be conducive to creating applications beyond a few hundred lines of code -- after that, the &quot;human-friendly&quot; programming paradigm becomes an obstacle to production. Once people actually understand how the code works, the document style becomes superfluous.<p>I suspect that Eve will be a great learning tool and pique the interest of those who would otherwise never program, but Eve will be an introductory tool that users will inevitably graduate from to other languages that are perhaps more powerful, concise, and scale better.
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lahardy超过 8 年前
It seems like you are aiming for two main things at once, 1) to create a &quot;literate programming&quot; environment (document structure, real-time visualization, etc) and (in service of that?) to use this &quot;world as data&quot; model. As a non-expert programmer, I have to say I don&#x27;t quite understand the implications of the search&#x2F;bind&#x2F;commit approach, specifically whether it was necessary in order to implement the features of the environment that make it human-friendly, or whether you consider it to be, in itself, a human-friendly approach.<p>My feeling is that the language itself is not really any more human-friendly than any other. You say in the &quot;what Eve isn&#x27;t&quot; section that it&#x27;s not for non-programmers-- but if the environment and language were both truly human-friendly, one benchmark of that would likely be a lower barrier to entry for non-programmers.<p>That said, again as a non-expert programmer, I see massive value particularly in the &quot;document&quot; approach-- though I see it less as human-friendly, and more as human(s)-friendly. Most of my programming experience has been as a graduate student, either scientific programming or (small) app and website development, and it is often the case that code is passed down in time from person to person. Each time you get someone else&#x27;s project you initially have to rely on code organization conventions, file names and comments to figure out how the program really fits together, before you can even start working with it (and the tendency, for small-ish projects, is to want to avoid this work and just rewrite it yourself). The code-as-document approach seems wildly better for these particular use cases. I want to echo king_magic&#x27;s comment, that if a wiki-like overlay could be used on top of an arbitrary codebase, it would go a long way toward human(s)-friendly programming, and I&#x27;d use the heck out of it.
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jhomedall超过 8 年前
I&#x27;ve just started following along with the quick-start tutorial, and I have to say that the presentation is quite fantastic.<p>Combining the source, tutorial documentation and program output along with the ability to selectively enable blocks of code makes for a unique experience that I haven&#x27;t seen elsewhere (Jupyter Notebook comes quite close, however). I recommend anyone reading this to give it a shot: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;play.witheve.com&#x2F;#&#x2F;examples&#x2F;quickstart.eve" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;play.witheve.com&#x2F;#&#x2F;examples&#x2F;quickstart.eve</a><p>It&#x27;s a shame the majority of the posters here seem to be preoccupied with the tagline, rather than the actual project.
afhammad超过 8 年前
I was just listening to DHH&#x27;s interview [0] on Tim Ferriss&#x27;s podcast. On the question of beautiful code DHH said among other things &quot;I open up any piece of code in Basecamp and it kind of reads like a great table of contents...&quot; That immediately made me think of the work being done with Eve based on recent screenshots. Can&#x27;t wait to try it out.<p>[0] <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;fourhourworkweek.com&#x2F;2016&#x2F;10&#x2F;27&#x2F;david-heinemeier-hansson&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;fourhourworkweek.com&#x2F;2016&#x2F;10&#x2F;27&#x2F;david-heinemeier-hans...</a>
hacker_9超过 8 年前
So my immediate thoughts are this looks very nice for designing websites with. It does look like the ideas all rely on a static webpage though (not many moving parts). As I understand it, your page is built with a set of tagged content in a DB, and then further queries can access data via those tags. You&#x27;ve fit together a DB + real time feedback + visualisations in an appealing way that actual makes creating webpages look fun. Something that is otherwise a terribly monotonous task in the current JavaScript climate.<p>I wonder how well these ideas work as you ramp up to complex algorithms though. For example 5 nested for loops with 10 000 records of data would likely choke your visualisation to death. Also often the decision of choosing your data structures (list vs hash table vs concurrent queue vs ...) are paramount to the performance of the application. A single DB I can&#x27;t imagine always being the best approach, but one idea could be to measure the data frequency passing though and optimise for the best structure perhaps? Similar to how SQL operates at the moment.<p>The idea of splitting functionality up into blocks is interesting, though I think you are focusing too much on the literate side of things. I think I would just keep the English text to a minimum, only explaining the &#x27;why&#x27; and let the code explain the &#x27;what&#x2F;how&#x27;. But forgetting that, the block separation idea is nice enough on it&#x27;s own, especially with the table of contents.<p>I&#x27;ve not looked very in-depth at the language, but what you did in the video did seem a bit like magic at times, and the simplicity seemed to hint at a lot of code hidden away behind simple looking APIs. Meaning doing anything out of the norm would find yourself having to roll a lot of your own code, but I could be assuming wrongly here so won&#x27;t dwell on it.<p>I did notice that there was no autocomplete popups in the video. Does this mean you&#x27;ve forgone a type system of any sort? I would hope not as TypeScript has shown the productivity hike adding a few simple type annotations can give. Fully &#x27;dynamic&#x27; code bases tend to be nightmares after a certain LOC threshold.<p>All in all congrats for giving a new outlook on programming by combining a set of old ideas in a new streamlined way, and giving HN something else to grumble about for a while!
xaduha超过 8 年前
In all honesty I&#x27;m more impressed by this [1], but I will take a look.<p>[1] <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.red-lang.org&#x2F;2016&#x2F;07&#x2F;eve-style-clock-demo-in-red-livecoded.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.red-lang.org&#x2F;2016&#x2F;07&#x2F;eve-style-clock-demo-in-red-...</a>
agumonkey超过 8 年前
Pretty neat (understatement). From a quick glance, blend of notebook&#x2F;literate with smalltalkish introspection.<p>Kudos for keeping at the idea for long (I remember when you left LT and talked about possible ideas a while back) and delivering something that simple yet inspiring.<p>ps: the team bug fixing interactions reminds me of IBM Jazz days, it seemed so heavy, and here it seems so light.
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cocktailpeanuts超过 8 年前
&quot;An IDE like Medium, not Vim&quot;<p>What&#x27;s wrong with Vim? I think they&#x27;re trying to cater to &quot;the non-programmer crowd&quot; with this, but by trying so hard it&#x27;s alienating real programmers. I love vim, and I hate Medium with passion. I&#x27;m sure there are a lot of other HN people who are not so much a fan of the types of people who just write meta posts, rant posts, listicle posts, self help posts, growth hacking posts on Medium and call themselves a &quot;maker&quot; without actually building anything meaningful. So, you&#x27;ve lost me there Eve. Anyway, that aside, looking more into how this tool really works, this is NOT something an everyday Joe will use like they speak English. This is an actual programming language. The language itself is no easier than python or ruby (actually subjectively speaking the syntax is less intuitive than python for example).<p>Also I think they&#x27;re imagining that Excel users will just eat this up, since it&#x27;s kind of like how people run pseudo-programs on excel documents. But people used those because Excel was the most popular app that lets them work with numbers back then. Now there are many ways to achieve what Eve is trying to do, plus Excel. Why would any lay person jump on an obscure technology doesn&#x27;t do anything significantly new?<p>Overall I think there&#x27;s a problem with assuming that this is for &quot;humans&quot; just because it&#x27;s &quot;literate programming&quot;. &quot;Humans&quot; don&#x27;t want all this literate programming stuff exposed. They just want to push a button and take care of things. On the other hand, programmers (I guess we should call them &quot;non-humans&quot;) don&#x27;t need all this literate programming stuff. They are trained to understand how programming languages work. They may think this is neat at first, but very soon will start to think all these comments are getting in the way.<p>I have personally never seen any programming related technology titled &quot;... for humans&quot; actually work for &quot;humans&quot;. Perhaps because these tend to be built by extremely talented programmers who are too talented that they are out of touch with how their grandma uses computers, they probably think their creations are easy enough for &quot;humans&quot;.<p>Sorry if this sounded too negative. I am willing to discuss and correct my comments if I am wrong about anything.
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zenobit256超过 8 年前
Sorry, but what about this is &quot;designed for humans&quot;?<p>What do the keywords mean? What&#x27;s the language paradigm? Why do I want this when it&#x27;s essentially coalescing a lot of APIs into a language that you&#x27;ve provided no spec for?<p>Why would I want my language to work with slack?!<p>I&#x27;m not impressed. It just looks like another functional language with a bunch of addons tacked on to make things &quot;easier&quot; or &quot;for humans&quot;.<p>Drop the buzzwords and get to the meat please.
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delegate超过 8 年前
Fantastic work.<p>The &#x27;story-like&#x27; literate programming is the direction in which programming will (should) move in the future imho.<p>Visually, you could explore the idea of &#x27;literal-visual&#x27; programming (just invented), something like:<p>commit [#imageFor #student &quot;student-icon.jpg&quot;]<p>Then have a button to toggle between rendering records as text and &#x27;visual&#x27; records, in which &quot;[#student ] is replaced with a pictogram. Now you have a more &#x27;abstract&#x27; look at the algorithm - could be interesting.<p>Similarly, an entire block of code could be switched to &#x27;visual view&#x27;, which displays the block as an image, which could be, for example, the screenshot of the last output it produced.<p>---<p>The Core language is interesting - declarative, functional and dynamically typed (right?) query language. Some Prolog scent there.<p>My only concern is that it might be a bit too &#x27;limited&#x27; for larger scale applications ?<p>But for exploratory data mining, it looks like a great tool.<p>It seems to be well suited for queries in large scale distributed databases (like a p2p network) - is my intuition correct ?<p>If true, then I can see interesting ways in which Eve could be integrated with ipfs for example and used as a data mining tool...<p>I enjoy things that create sparks of ideas in my mind, Eve has done that for me today ;).
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andreyk超过 8 年前
Very exciting. Feels predictable that there is some push-back from all us programmers used to &#x27;normal&#x27; languages (and the wording on some of this does not help), but when you think about the language itself and not the &#x27;Medium-like&#x27; IDE I find it genuinely very interesting. The whole threading and records concepts here are neat...<p>As always the question is whether it will scale - being so distributed code-wise seems to imply it will also be hard to trace errors or perhaps at some point increase confusion. Would this work for giant complicated apps&#x2F;websites? Would be nice to see examples&#x2F;attempts at that.
sebastianconcpt超过 8 年前
I celebrate trying this. The last time that there was serious attempt at this was Smalltalk and it had a great impact on the industry. Itself a great balance of friendly instant feedback and great control. There is also Apple&#x27;s Playgrounds now with Swift trying more or less on this. Definitively the instant feedback is a key component in having the right introduction to computing. If we extend this idea we&#x27;ll find that we need this in the debugger too. It works because is the best way to replace imagination and assumptions with perceptions.
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alkonaut超过 8 年前
This looks a lot excel or Access, but better. Excel is also just a database of state and a global update &quot;tick&quot;. Anyone who is a programmer has probably at one time or other taken that spreadsheet or Access utility used for task X at a company and tried to make a &quot;real&quot; application out of it - only to realize that it takes an enormous amount of time.<p>This would help with those scenarios. Its perhaps not the best tool for general programming but it looks promising for creating maintainable data centric utilities. Instead of all those spreadsheets.
SCdF超过 8 年前
This looks cool! Always like seeing what idbknox comes up with.<p>I&#x27;m still reading stuff, so apologies if this is answered elsewhere, but what is the plan &#x2F; workflow &#x2F; constraints to handle prose getting out of line with code? In current software I read &#x2F; write it&#x27;s already an issue, I feel like the more you take out of code and put into prose the more this could become a challenge.<p>I&#x27;ll keep digging and reading, awesome work!
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stungeye超过 8 年前
As a programming instructor the Eve demo video gave me goosebumps. The emphasis on prose+code, world=data, and the discoverability afforded by the inspector are of particular interest to me.<p>Our current learning stack for folks with zero coding experience is Scratch (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;scratch.mit.edu" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;scratch.mit.edu</a>) to Processing (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;processing.org" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;processing.org</a>) to Java.* I&#x27;ll be watching the Eve project carefully to see how it might fit into our intro to programming path.<p>*If these intro students continue to our full program they learn C#, SQL, PHP &amp; JS&#x2F;HTML too.
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grok2超过 8 年前
Underwhelming so far. Literate programming sounds good, but sometimes it&#x27;s too much text and you want to quickly scan a few lines of code and guess what&#x27;s going on without reading that wall of text. I wonder if this is for regular programming or for occasional programmers (non-programmers really) to try &quot;stuff&quot; out.
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AtroxDev超过 8 年前
Wow, I enjoyed the first video in the post way more than expected. Looks very promising.
ar-jan超过 8 年前
I&#x27;ve occasionally checked on Eve&#x27;s progress since I first saw it mentioned here on Hacker News about two years ago - nice to see all the progress you&#x27;ve made!<p>A question regarding the centrality of data: when I first read about this, I thought an important part would be a kind of user interface for building relational databases - perhaps something like fieldbook. You mention Eve already includes a relational query engine - is a UI for modelling tables and for data entry also on the roadmap?
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CGamesPlay超过 8 年前
How do you use Eve programs? Are they constrained to a sidebar in the IDE, or do they compile to something that can be distributed?
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webmaven超过 8 年前
A lot of interesting ideas are implemented in this version of Eve, but there are two goals (both implied and made explicit in various places) for &quot;programming designed for humans&quot;:<p>- Make it easier for non-programmers to program<p>- Make it easier for programmers to program<p>While I can see that the current roadmap advances toward both those goals, I don&#x27;t see what the Eve team plans to do when those two goals start pulling in opposite directions.<p>Will Eve be kept simple and a second UI be created for programmers? Or will Eve continue to be the programmers&#x27; tool, and a second UI be created for non-programmers in mind?<p>The alternative of keeping a single tool for both audiences makes me shudder, as it will literally end up being &quot;code in Word&quot;. It is precisely because Word tries to be all things to all people writing prose that it is such a bloated mess (granted, it isn&#x27;t the <i>only</i> reason, but it is a major one).<p>I&#x27;m not even certain whether a UX for non-programmers would just a subset of the one for programmers, or if there are likely to be features specific to non-programmers.
turingbook超过 8 年前
@ibdknox &#x27;s blog &quot;Two years of Eve&quot; is useful to understand why of Eve: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.chris-granger.com&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.chris-granger.com&#x2F;</a>
dragonwriter超过 8 年前
I don&#x27;t know if it&#x27;s more or less &quot;for humans&quot; than any other programming environment, but I think the search&#x2F;bind&#x2F;commit model is an important interesting approach. Given a good enough way to connect new external resources as Eve databases, I can see that model making Eve incredibly productive as a high-level glue language.
yk超过 8 年前
Well, I think this sounds quite good, in fact it sounds so good that it is probably not true. And reading to the page, I stumble over the sentence<p>&gt; An IDE like Medium, not Vim<p>Thing is, vim is not complicated because of some misplaced elitism, vim is complicated because it helps with complicated problems. (I am a zealot for the church of Emacs, when I say something &quot;nice&quot; about vim, it is because honesty or pointy objects force me.)<p>Unfortunately it goes downhill from there, it is nice that there is a way to visualize memory in five lines of code, but what about the memory of the following three processes (and the one thread in red and the others in some other color?) In my experience, there is a trade off between the power of a language and the impressiveness of the examples. (A better example would probably be the twitter api, does that mean I need to beg the core developers to talk to the next &quot;slack for dogs&quot; api?)<p>Then there is the &quot;zoom&quot; feature, I have not the slightest idea what that is supposed to mean. (Actually I have, I just don&#x27;t think that this side of a strong AI coworker it is possible to hide information in any useful way. (Hiding information is just the inverse of zoom.)<p>And to top it of, there is a link to the demo and the first thing I notice is, scrolling is broken. (Arch, Firefox, NoScript with in this case all JS sources allowed) Well, the first thing a IDE should allow me to do is to display text in the most reliable way possible, even if that means more than one page. (Plus it is in a browser, which may or may not be only for demonstration purposes, but at the very least the browser uses the right mouse button to display browsery options not IDE options.)<p>After having fired up chromium, there the IDE works and it actually works kind of well. To keep with the overall negative tone of the comment, almost as good as Jupyter. The first thing I notice, is that one can switch code blocks on and off, but the output depends non linearly on the set of switched on code blocks. For this one would likely need some kind of toggles for sets of code blocks if it should be usable at all. (So to switch on extra test cases, or to test only one part of the program, etc.)<p>In conclusion, it is a nice project and I wish the devs all the best. Hopefully one of these days someone manages to get literate programming to work. But I think that there are quite a few things which make me doupt that this is, what makes literate programming work in the end.
famerr超过 8 年前
I&#x27;m sorry guys, I see you made a great work. But until it goes to visual programming kind of things it will look like SQL-like language, which I like btw. But visual would be a really next step keep on with those things. And world-like document is really a great idea. Thank you.
leke超过 8 年前
The syntax reminds me of a language I played with many years ago called REBOL. Even some of the terminology is the same, like a &quot;block&quot;.
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psiclops超过 8 年前
Reminds me of luna language [0], a functional language that allows you to write code with text or a UI. I saw two of the creators present this at a GDG event in SF<p>[0] <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.luna-lang.org&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.luna-lang.org&#x2F;</a>
hinkley超过 8 年前
The first question I always ask, and often the most deadly:<p>How do you handle version control, and merge conflicts?<p>If you don&#x27;t have that figured out, none of the rest of this matters. Because a programming language designed for one developer isn&#x27;t designed for building software.
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oelmekki超过 8 年前
I love the radical shift around documentation that is played on, here. I won&#x27;t switch from my usual languages to use Eve, obviously, but there are super interesting ideas in it, I will watch it closely.<p>Did you consider any niche market where it could actually become the main tool? Education come in mind first, but I&#x27;m not sure it would be a good &quot;introduction to programming&quot;, given how different it&#x27;s from, well, all other languages. Maybe it could be good in art classes, though, helping kids to build digital and interactive creations, and even write a story around need, through the documentation centric approach.
petermcd超过 8 年前
Some great approaches here!<p>I like the medium-like bar on the left to browse blocks. Checking the boxes next to the blocks you want to show is a neat way to make a view of just the functions you want to look at. Putting it in a browser, like iPython&#x2F;Jupyter improves accessibility for people whose main job is not developing software (the Eve demo makes a good example of being able to pass an analytics view to a teammate in marketing).<p>I do find myself wondering how a literate programming system like this would scale for a large project (I expect the Eve team have thought about this more than I can imagine).<p>Great polish on the demo, too :)
dancek超过 8 年前
While this is a very early version, something like it will eventually put most programmers out of work. Probably it&#x27;ll be another language&#x2F;tool and it won&#x27;t be very soon, but at some point writing trivial software will actually be trivial.<p>It&#x27;s ironic, being a programmer that automates things that people used to do manually, and kind of doing good but leaving someone unemployed. How fitting it will be to suddenly become mostly obsolete as a profession, due to programming being very easy or even done by AI. Dogfooding, anyone?
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d--b超过 8 年前
A few comments.<p>1. Black box<p>By hiding away the complexities of schema design and information indexing, Eve cannot be accepted as a proper framework for any professional project. As soon as performance starts to be a problem, there is nothing one can do to help. In the same vein, not having local variables means there is a whole lot of small things you can&#x27;t do. Doing flappy bird is one thing, I doubt you can make a fast Tetris with this. Rotating pieces will be a nightmare. I mean, even in Eve, you HAD to add &quot;functions&quot; like cosine and sine, just for your demos. If you can&#x27;t define these functions, you kind of proved that Eve was incomplete...<p>2. For humans?<p>I personally don&#x27;t think that eve makes it particularly easier for human to program. I mean, this is a type of programming that is not new. You can do eve-like programs in any language easily. In c#, you can do an Eve engine with 1 big list of dynamically typed records and Linq queries on it. Yet, it&#x27;s not the way people like to program. The only real world example that I can think of is D3, which in many ways shares the eve search &#x2F; apply &#x2F; bind model. And D3 is pretty great, but many people have found it hard to grasp, and it is likely that the limitation of the approach are ok when dealing with graphics, and much less so when deal with general purpose programming language.
cperkins超过 8 年前
This is very exciting. The growth from Eve 0 to Eve 0.2 is remarkable - it&#x27;s clear you have not been afraid of starting over as you&#x27;ve made realizations.
kybernetikos超过 8 年前
I absolutely loved the semantic wiki stuff that was shown towards the end of the &quot;In search of tomorrow&quot; video. This seems fairly different to that system. Is there a write up&#x2F;talk about why you changed? Is there anything like that semantic wiki thing available for me to use?<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;VZQoAKJPbh8?t=46m20s" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;VZQoAKJPbh8?t=46m20s</a>
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partycoder超过 8 年前
I think the best way to introduce a new concept to someone is to do it in terms of something the person is already familiar with.<p>You can introduce programming by making an analogy with a cooking recipe, where you have ingredients (input), and a desired output (whatever the recipe is for). The recipe would process the input and through a sequence of defined steps, turn it into the output.<p>The average human is familiar with the concept of cooking to some extent so we can say that analogy would work &quot;for humans&quot;.<p>This, in contrast, fast-forwards directly into some concepts like functions, how to evaluate functions, etc... and that&#x27;s where I stopped reading. This is not &quot;for humans&quot;. Might be a viable language, sure. But let&#x27;s be objective, leave superlatives and weird claims aside.
clintons超过 8 年前
From first look, looks like rubyish types of languages. Maybe it strikes a cord with someone else.<p>After 15 years I&#x27;ve learned to hate languages like these for building anything slightly complex.<p>However...<p>The great thing about all these languages is there&#x27;s choice for everyone. There are as many pet peeves and ways of thinking as there are developers. There is a language for (almost) every type of case needed.<p>So use whatever the hell makes you love programming the most (or hate it the least), gets the job done right and makes your business(or employer) money or does something helpful for your users.<p>I might like like the flavor you like but, you might not like mine either. And guess what, we might both be totally right about the requirements met by the languages we use for our own work.
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empath75超过 8 年前
How would you interact with a rest api with this?
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OOPMan超过 8 年前
Looking at the examples, it seems like Eve is really just a DSL for performing a number of common preset interactions within the web browser.<p>Maybe I missed something but it doesn&#x27;t seem like this is really designed for usage outside the browser environment?<p>As such it seems like this is really just a very high-level layer on top of JS rather than a general-purpose programming language, a lot like Jupyter Notebook and friends.<p>I guess the biggest challenge Eve faces is the same one faced by all those other 5GL &quot;languages&quot; that are now rotting at the bottom of a dumpster: How do you become relevant beyond a tiny niche problem space?
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smaddox超过 8 年前
Any attempt to re-imagine programming is refreshing, but it&#x27;s unclear to me if this is more than a domain specific language (DSL). Is it possible to implement, for example, the bar graph from lower primitives?
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thallukrish超过 8 年前
I feel to make programming easier, we need a assistant (intelligent in whatever sense you call it :-) that can figure out the &#x27;intent&#x27; of the code by reading it and be able to point out bugs by learning from millions of source code in Github.<p>I wrote in this article<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;medium.com&#x2F;@thallukrish&#x2F;debug-assistant-2aa37ac13ca5#.qzgchnsw0" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;medium.com&#x2F;@thallukrish&#x2F;debug-assistant-2aa37ac13ca5...</a>
zwischenzug超过 8 年前
I&#x27;m pretty sure &#x27;effect&#x27; in the first doc is grammatically incorrect. Either way, the ambiguity confused me. Not a great sign for such a language.
gnud超过 8 年前
This looks interesting! But it terrifies me how you seem to be programming against the production app&#x2F;database in the video.<p>I get that this is the early days of the project, but I would love to see some information about how your program is actually stored&#x2F;compiled, how you can version control and deploy it, and how you can interact with files&#x2F;databases outside the &#x27;eve&#x27; universe.
squar1sm超过 8 年前
Anything that increases feedback and visualization is great. It&#x27;s not about the storage of the code it&#x27;s about the communication paths between the programmer and the computer and making that higher bandwidth and quick turn-around. I love what I see with saving the session (lisp state) and replaying it.<p>If not this, then this idea. Or this idea with more time and features. Impressive already.
tehwalrus超过 8 年前
This reminds me a lot of the ipython notebook.<p>I still think Python is a programming language well suited to humans: I&#x27;m not sure I want to try to understand (and hold in my head while debugging) how seventeen disjoint blocks of code interact in an event driven UI like in the messaging app example, clever highlighting&#x2F;jumping or no.
onetwotree超过 8 年前
&gt; From a technical standpoint, Eve is a variant of Datalog<p>This is what I needed to understand what you&#x27;re up to here, oddly enough.<p>From <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;programming.witheve.com&#x2F;deepdives&#x2F;whateveis.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;programming.witheve.com&#x2F;deepdives&#x2F;whateveis.html</a> (which might not be up to date?).
eternalban超过 8 年前
Reminded me of Wolfram&#x27;s Mathematica.
zubairq超过 8 年前
Here is the link to play with Eve in case you can&#x27;t find the link:<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;play.witheve.com&#x2F;#&#x2F;examples&#x2F;quickstart.eve" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;play.witheve.com&#x2F;#&#x2F;examples&#x2F;quickstart.eve</a>
FraserGreenlee超过 8 年前
If this takes of it will create an awesome dataset for a description to code ai!
theideasmith超过 8 年前
I saw this a while ago too: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;unisonweb.org&#x2F;2015-05-07&#x2F;about.html#post-start" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;unisonweb.org&#x2F;2015-05-07&#x2F;about.html#post-start</a>
aikah超过 8 年前
Meh, looks like Redlang, Rebol and co. In practice these kind of languages lead to easy to write&#x2F;hard to read codebases due to the lack of visual cues and structure. But the IDE is nice though.
Thomasdah超过 8 年前
I really like this project. It is based on principles i can get behind.<p>Since this is a web based programming language - i really would like to know how to interop with JavaScript.<p>In my case i need to use the pixi.js renderer
zindlerb超过 8 年前
Looks really cool! I&#x27;m excited to test out a few programs.
n_mca超过 8 年前
This looks cool, but can somebody point me towards the details? As in, I&#x27;m a semantics &#x2F; pl-theory person and want to know wtf is going on...
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taneq超过 8 年前
This smells like a game maker app, in the sense that it&#x27;s hiding &quot;all that messy coding stuff&quot; behind &quot;a simple friendly interface.&quot;<p>Programming isn&#x27;t about syntax. It&#x27;s about telling the computer <i>exactly</i> what you want it to do, in every possible situation. The hard part isn&#x27;t the language you use to tell the computer what to do. The hard part is making sure the instructions you&#x27;re giving match what you want to happen.<p>I&#x27;m not saying it&#x27;s impossible, but every time I&#x27;ve encountered something that&#x27;s meant to &#x27;make programming easier&#x27;, once you get beyond &#x27;hello world&#x27; all it does is get in the way. You still have to communicate the same amount of information to the computer, but now you&#x27;re doing it with duplo blocks instead of a milling machine.
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pmontra超过 8 年前
A suggestion to the designer of the language: do whatever it takes to get rid of those square brackets. They don&#x27;t belong to a language for humans, not in that quantity. As a bonus, remove also @ and #.<p>All the rest looks good. Hopefully it will influence other languages to display their inner workings in a more visual way, maybe even the mainstream ones.
edem超过 8 年前
LightTable was not updated for a year now. I actually backed it and now the IDE seems abandoned never to reach 1.0. I&#x27;ve lost trust in the developers and I won&#x27;t recommend Eve to anyone because of the fear that they will abandon it as well and start chasing the next big dream.
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Edmond超过 8 年前
Love it.
jlebrech超过 8 年前
can this be adapted for touch?
jlebrech超过 8 年前
i see the first problem is that you&#x27;re generating HTML
superninja234超过 8 年前
If I copy and paste ruby code in to a word doc, can I program like a human too?
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miloshadzic超过 8 年前
This &quot;for humans&quot; shit has to stop.
dboreham超过 8 年前
Someone needs to be given a lollipop?
soared超过 8 年前
&gt;Target market is not programs<p>&gt;Only place to try it out is on github<p>Github is the most terrifying place on the internet for 90% of users (non-developers). I cannot stand when a project is trying to market to regular users but hosts any content on github. I get that this is an early alpha, but come on..
tomc1985超过 8 年前
Replace &quot;for humans&quot; with &quot;for stupid humans&quot; and you get to the truth<p>How selfish is it that everything has to be &quot;for humans&quot; anyway? Why can&#x27;t it just be? Let&#x27;s not further complicate already-complicated abstractions.