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What I learned from spending 3 months applying to jobs after a coding bootcamp

346 点作者 quincyla超过 8 年前

39 条评论

mkurz超过 8 年前
Holy shit.<p>Is this some kind of a joke?<p>&gt; Otherwise, companies automatically categorize us into junior developer roles or tag us as “not enough experience.”<p>??? What do you think you are after a TWELVE WEEK coding seminar (no matter how intense it was)? It looks frightening to me that he doesn&#x27;t even know what &quot;junior developer&quot; really means. How ignorant can someone be to NOT think to be a junior dev right after &quot;graduation&quot;. Like: I am taking a first aid course - but you have to call me doctor afterwards - otherwise I am pissed off!<p>&gt; A study by Triplebyte has found that bootcamp grads are weaker in these areas than computer science grads.<p>Really? No... This must be a lie!<p>No personal offence here, but honestly, I just can&#x27;t imagine how a serious company with a certain degree of professionalism is going to hire people like him for a serious software engineering job (or similiar). But actually, if I think back, at my last job a couple of years ago we had a guy similar to him - it ended up giving him all the shitty work that wasn&#x27;t too complicated and hadn&#x27;t to much impact on the success of a project (some HTML &amp; CSS stuff for the frontend) but nobody wanted to do (because it sucked). It took him hours and days to finish stuff someone of the rest of the team would have done in maybe half an hour.<p>I am also wondering about the reactions in the comments - also here on HN - interesting to see what kind if audience is hanging around here.<p>Anyway. Coding camps seems to be a good way to make money - for the organizers.
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dood超过 8 年前
Are people in America seriously getting offers of $120k with no degree, no experience, and not even a side-project? That is mind-blowing.<p>In London, probably the biggest&#x2F;richest market outside of USA, that sort of salary is beyond what most experienced developers get, even some very good ones.<p>I must be missing something here (some sort of bubble?) because I can&#x27;t see how businesses can be profitable paying those sort of salaries to people who know almost nothing about professional programming. Either that or businesses in America are just waaaay ahead of Europe at turning code into cash.
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Rainymood超过 8 年前
On a related tangent, this is why it is so important to have a so called &quot;Emergency fund&quot;! An emergency fund is a little bit of money (often 1-6x average monthly expenses) such that if you get canned you can survive for 1-6 months without having to work so you can focus on applying for jobs and getting a new job without having to stress when your next bill is due.<p>I agree that 6 months living expenses is on the high side, but make sure to get at least &gt;1 month of savings in ... make this a priority! I would argue to even do this before paying off your student loans. Why? Because this is such a &#x27;small&#x27; sum of money which can really save your ass in the long run when something DOES go wrong. And if every month has a certain probability p of going down the shitters and you approach it like a geometric distribution then its a simple probabilistic (near) certainty.<p>Remember this: emergencies come unannounced (else they wouldn&#x27;t be emergencies).<p>Get your emergency fund up and running !!
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Slackwise超过 8 年前
This whole hardcore quizzing and testing during interviews has to go. As far as I can see, all it does is create selection bias for people who memorize things or like to practice interview questions.<p>Maybe that&#x27;s just me being too old for that kinda&#x27; crap.
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dmitrygr超过 8 年前
&gt; A study by Triplebyte has found that bootcamp grads are weaker in these areas than computer science grads.<p>Really?! Who&#x27;da thunk?<p>&gt; At Hack Reactor, we’re trained to mask our inexperience. In our personal narratives, we purposely omit our bootcamp education.<p>Hm...<p>&gt; Why? Otherwise, companies automatically categorize us into junior developer roles or tag us as “not enough experience.”<p>And you think that after a few weeks of bootcamp &quot;education&quot; you&#x27;re anything but?
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rtets超过 8 年前
&quot;At Hack Reactor, we’re trained to mask our inexperience. In our personal narratives, we purposely omit our bootcamp education.&quot;<p>Assuming most people who do bootcamps are changing careers, how do you explain suddenly becoming a developer after years of another career?
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hasbroslasher超过 8 年前
I too went to a bootcamp and spent about 3 months searching for a job afterwards. I didn&#x27;t study anything. I let my bootcamp knowledge get written to disk and freed up more room for new stuff. I drank a lot of beer and went hiking in the woods as much as I could. I worked on my projects ~5-7 days a week but never for 8 hours at a time. Just a constant, undirected exploration and work towards building new things. Granted, I had some background in tech (particularly in data science, stats, college-level programming) so I might be an edge case.<p>At first I thought I was screwed, but after 3 months I&#x27;d completed 3 vastly different projects and it showed in my interviews. I could speak intelligently about 5 or 6 different programming languages and a multitude of database technologies, libraries and had my college-years algo&#x2F;OO knowledge in the background. I had done everything from front-end design to Machine Learning, low-level algorithms engineering to full scale apps. And then I got an awesome job. I doubled my yearly earnings. People may scoff at bootcamps, but it helped in my case - if nothing else I got half a year to mess around with computers instead of doing that after work like I had been for the last couple of years.<p>As far as interviewing goes: I got rejected a lot. I rejected a lot of companies, especially those who tried to sell themselves to me. I was picky about not working in a megapolis hell. I didn&#x27;t bug people if they didn&#x27;t get back to me. I turned down second interviews if the person who interviewed me was an asshole or was non-technical. And it all worked out.<p>Unsurprisingly, I landed at a company with a lot of views similar to mine. We all mock Silicon Valley. We don&#x27;t work around the clock, we like having lives outside of work. Few of us are traditional tech people. All in all, a very life-affirming experience.
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zengid超过 8 年前
Is anyone else bothered by the code at the beginning of this article? Simply returning the expression would have had the same effect, ie:<p><pre><code> function getDevJob(studying, hardWork, luck){ return studying &amp;&amp; hardWork &amp;&amp; luck; } </code></pre> I know that it might not make the code readable to novice javaScripters, but it bothers me anyway..
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krosaen超过 8 年前
I&#x27;m happy for this guy, and there are really good tips in here for managing an application funnel.<p>Like others, I&#x27;m surprised offers north of 110 are possible given his experience, and can&#x27;t help but bristle a bit at him being a self described &quot;full stack&quot; developer when it appears he&#x27;s a front end developer (does rails really count as being a backend engineer?).<p>But he worked exceptionally hard at the process (guessing having applied to 10x the places a typical engineering grad does?), and also has a strong background in business from a reputable university. For some jobs, especially at startups, knowing how to understand the business problem and deliver results can be really important. The challenge isn&#x27;t the tech, it&#x27;s combining just enough tech [1] with essentially being a product manager too.<p>[1] learning that &quot;just enough tech&quot; is not easy, and it&#x27;s clear he worked hard to master a lot of material. It&#x27;s just that many of us have been working that hard for many years and likely have more expertise &#x2F; ability to learn new tech fast than can be gained by anyone in the course of a few months or a year; hence the initial surprise
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alexc05超过 8 年前
well first thing - that code at the top can be simplified.<p><pre><code> function getDevJob(studying, hardwork, luck){ return study &amp;&amp; hardwork &amp;&amp; luck; } </code></pre> But more seriously - I actually really like point #2. I firmly believe that job interviews have a strong bias towards people with experience doing job interviews. Your &quot;offer-ladder&quot; seems to confirm that for me.<p>It reminds me of that freakonomics article about how real estate agents get more for their houses because they wait longer for a higher offer. By getting the practise and being better at job interviews and NOT jumping at the first offer, you get a better overall rate.
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evanelias超过 8 年前
&gt; He told us to send emails directly to real people with each application. It could be anybody. As long as someone read it.<p>&gt; For most small companies or C-level executives, the email format is usually firstName@dreamCompany.com. For larger companies, it may be firstName.lastName@dreamCompany.com.<p>This advice is horribly annoying, and I really wish people would stop recommending this awful email guesswork garbage.<p>I&#x27;m an engineer, and I once had a [firstname]@[company].com email address at a company. Later on, the company hired a recruiter with same first name, followed by a head of marketing with same first name.<p>Naturally I started getting tons of unsolicited mail, several times per day, from people who simply assumed my email address corresponds to one of the other people with the same first name. This included a lot of resumes from people who graduated from coding bootcamp.<p>Often the same person would email repeatedly, a few days apart. It definitely did not help their chance of getting hired.
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bluedino超过 8 年前
&gt;&gt; I applied to 291 companies, did 32 phone screens, 16 technical screens, 13 coding challenges, 11 on-sites, and received 8 offers.<p>How much time would that take?<p>Figure 15 minutes per company - 4,365 minutes, or 72 hours. And that&#x27;s time just spent finding the company, changing around a cover letter, and then emailing it and responding etc.<p>32 phone screens? Let&#x27;s say 30 minutes each, that&#x27;s 960 minutes, or 16 hours of phone screens. Forget accounting for prep time, etc<p>16 technical screens, an hour or two, let&#x27;s go 90 minutes. Again, not accounting for prep or anything else - 1440 minutes, or another 24 hours.<p>13 coding challenges. From experience companies want you spending no more than 1 day or 8 hours on a coding challenge, so 104 hours here.<p>11 on-sites. At least 2 hours each, 22 hours, not accounting for travel or anything like that.<p>Also, I would have targeted applications to a lot less than 291 companies. I guess if I was trying to get my first job I&#x27;d be a lot less picky, but the &#x27;ideal&#x27; company to work at can be few and far between.
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TorKlingberg超过 8 年前
First: Good job on the author! I don&#x27;t think I could make 300 application in a three months, and I am fortunate that I have never needed to. This is impressive determination and focus, and it paid off.<p>Second: Wow, programming is becoming a commodity. This is literally 1) Learn the latest trendy framework and nothing else, 2) Study to the test, 3) Interview well. Either the market will be flooded and salaries for generic JS devs will crash, or strong programmers need to find a way to differentiate themselves that cannot be copied by anyone in 2 months.
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cagataygurturk超过 8 年前
So whoever hired the guy should feel bad. He explains the strategy to boost his payroll, he was hiding the bootcamp he was attending and he was showing himself as experienced dev. And also why would you hire someone if 300 other companies were not interested in that person?<p>Ironically his lack of experience shows itself even in the first fancy function he writes on the blog post. Would not this unnecessary if block be a red flag in a coding interview?<p>I am sorry to see this type of people in the industry and I am sure I would do the best to not to let such people getting hired in my teams.
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ARothfusz超过 8 年前
&gt; Coming out of Hack Reactor, my weaknesses were data structures and algorithms. ... &gt; At Hack Reactor, we’re trained to mask our inexperience. In our personal narratives, we purposely omit our bootcamp education.<p>I fail to see how they prepared this student for a career in software development. Sounds like they get a Masters in technobabble.
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Practicality超过 8 年前
3 months of applying? Wow. Seems like whatever he got was well-earned to me. I really stick to projects too, but this is massive. I just don&#x27;t have the time&#x2F;patience for 3-months of searching while I am currently working.<p>Kind of makes me think that the market is selecting people who have someone else supporting them so they can do all this interview research. Seems backward in my opinion.<p>I keep hearing &quot;interviewing is a skill too.&quot; Sure it is, but should it be? I mean, why are hiring managers looking for people who are good at pretending to know things rather than people who demonstrate real aptitude through getting things done?
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sakopov超过 8 年前
3 months of boot camp and we call ourselves &quot;engineers&quot; (not this guy. I&#x27;m generalizing). I can&#x27;t even begin to imagine what licensed engineers feel like when they read stuff like this.
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scarface74超过 8 年前
For some strange reason people hate recruiters, but during my most recent job search - a month ago - I worked with seven recruiting companies. I was submitted to 15 jobs after filtering for commuting distance, technology, salary requirements.<p>First noticed that I filtered based on salary. Most companies don&#x27;t divulge salary ranges but recruiters know that up front.<p>Out of the 17: 2 - positions already filled before I started the process<p>1 - after further investigation, the technology stack didn&#x27;t meet my requirements<p>1 - had qualification I didn&#x27;t meet<p>10 - companies that wanted phone screens<p>8 - phone screens<p>3 - in person interviews<p>3 - offers<p>All of this in only 2-3 weeks. There is some overlap and no company out of the 17 stopped the process (submitted -&gt; phone screen -&gt; in person -&gt; offer). I either stopped the process after accepting an offer, the job req was put on hold, or the position was filled when the recruiter submitted it.<p>Two points. First, none of the submitted resumes disappeared into a black hole because I was using a recruiter. I knew my status for each job. The second point is that I&#x27;m no one special, I know plenty of developers that had the same experience.<p>Someone else asked how do you keep up with all of the applications - a spreadsheet.
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ericmcer超过 8 年前
Is it still a huge deal to have an encyclopedic knowledge of data structures and algorithms? This guy was applying for jobs doing React&#x2F;Node, which is what I do, and two years after school I cant remember all the details of the sorting algorithms. Would it be so bad to tell the interviewer that if I do anything other than call browser APIs to sort data I am failing at my job and wasting time?
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forgetsusername超过 8 年前
&gt;<i>the most important thing you could be doing at any point is studying and preparing.</i><p>&quot;Most important&quot;? Have fun with that. Life is too short to spend time memorizing the answers to over-the-top tech questions for some chance to work for a company no one has heard of (and isn&#x27;t producing tech near the scale of interview knowledge they require).
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gxs超过 8 年前
Great article.<p>The only part that I hesitated with was the part about getting through to real people.<p>After reading a post like this, not sure how hiring managers (or their team) are going to feel about getting inundated with emails from candidates. After all, that exact use case is why we have recruiting departments to begin with.<p>I would tweak it and say use your network to get in touch with real people. The effects of getting a million emails from candidates might be blunted a bit if they are coming from someone you actually know.
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lllorddino超过 8 年前
I just hate how these &quot;bootcamps&quot; are only in it for the money and then they have the audacity to tell their students to LIE on interviews. How about you actually pick a language YOU love, make projects, improve. Node.js LUL
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Wwhite超过 8 年前
At least only 2.8 percent of the companies he contacted were interested in hiring someone whose only genuine reason to be interested in software development is the salary. Now I remember why I&#x27;ve gravitated towards sysadmin rather than dev, and avoid the big tech companies and their cult of overpaid mediocrity.
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goldenbeet超过 8 年前
TL;DR: The barchart can be misleading. Increasing # of applications can decrease the rate at which they mature into offers.<p>I like some of your points like get through to real people. That&#x27;s an incredibly important part of landing a job. However I do have an issue with the graphic at the beginning. I think it&#x27;s misleading, because you shouldn&#x27;t really be applying to 200+ companies. When you take that kind of approach its like you&#x27;re selling yourself short (not putting your best foot forward). Its like saying &quot;I&#x27;ll take anything, just please give me a job&quot;. It&#x27;s also more difficult to actually show interest in whatever company you&#x27;re talking to, which is a key part of performing well and ultimately obtaining an offer. So you end up showing 8 offers from 291 applications, but I would argue that by making so many applications, you are decreasing the rate at which the applications turn into offers. I can offer a contrasting viewpoint to this job search thing. When I was in school for Physics I taught myself how to program and started focusing on Web Dev. I ended up dropping out of school and decided to become a programmer. In that initial job search I applied to three companies in SF. (Companies that I was familiar with and legitimately interested in) and got offers from all three. That was two years ago and I&#x27;ve since applied to two other companies in Mountain View (I&#x27;m trying to move to an ML engineer position) and received offers from both as well. And like I said I think the difference between what our bar graphs would look like is due to the fact that my applications were much more targeted and my interest and motivation in the companies was much more apparent.
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rocqua超过 8 年前
How do people justify and act going into an interview if you think there is a less than 10% chance of you wanting the job.<p>Do you just walk in and say &quot;Yeah, I don&#x27;t think this is going to work but I came here just for the hell and experience of it.&quot; This feels like a shitty thing to do, it feels even more shitty to walk in like you really want the job when you&#x27;re mostly there for the practice.
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lambda_func超过 8 年前
As someone who has gone through software engineer interviews with top Silicon Valley companies, what I see is that the process is biased towards 1) people with lots of time and good memory (so that you just work for several months to churn through the books&#x2F;questions available out there), 2) new hires (tend to get easier questions as far as I can see, they don&#x27;t get design questions, etc.) 3) people with competitive programming experience (especially Google or FB). If you are not in one of these groups then good luck, you will need that. Especially experienced software engineers who are married&#x2F;have kids have very little time to prepare for these sort of interviews, which makes it very hard for them to succeed. The way software engineers are interviewed right now are totally messed up, and is a big waste of time.
leecarraher超过 8 年前
not sure how much trust to put into data from freecodecamp.com a company that despite it&#x27;s name, seems to sell codingcamp products.
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VLM超过 8 年前
Honestly, isn&#x27;t that an unimaginably huge investment of time and effort? Wouldn&#x27;t it be easier and cheaper, more educational, and maybe faster to just create a startup and get aquihired? I&#x27;m not in the market now, but that&#x27;s my plan for the next time I&#x27;m looking. Its kind of a level up from merely registering an account at github.<p>I&#x27;d be dealing with business acquisition people instead of a role-mailbox in HR that&#x27;s piped to &#x2F;dev&#x2F;null anyway.<p>I don&#x27;t really want to move to CA and certainly can&#x27;t afford it without a huge hit in the standard of living. However... if someone bought goofy-idea-by-vlm.com for two or three million bucks and an aquihire job in CA, then I still don&#x27;t want to move there, but at least I could afford it if I absolutely had to.
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stuartcw超过 8 年前
&gt; At Hack Reactor, we’re trained to mask our inexperience [...] &gt; [...] Ultimately, you need to convince companies that you can do the job. &gt; [...]At the same time, you need to convince yourself that you can do the job.<p>Err.. Ultimately you need to be able to DO the job...
manish_gill超过 8 年前
Jesus Christ. To think I had to go to college for 4 years to get my CS degree, at the same time be an intern, take part in GSoC, and then work as a backend engineer for ~3 years only to make 1&#x2F;66 what this guy is making in another part of the world.<p>:|
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phmagic超过 8 年前
Speaking from a hiring manager&#x27;s perspective:<p>I don&#x27;t care if you&#x27;re from a dev bootcamp or an Ivy League school. I care if you care about your craft.<p>Experience is really hard to quantify, hence the programming tests. They are a crude way to standardized the measurements.<p>But care for your craft comes through right away. I&#x27;d ask them about the stuff they are interested in within their domain, then dig a little deeper to see if they have a strong grasp of what they are talking about. Sometimes I&#x27;d debate with them.<p>I also find that the best engineers I&#x27;ve ever met came from a variety of countries. They turned out to be amazing team members to work with as well. Once you&#x27;re no longer just looking at US schools and US dev bootcamps, you get amazing selection.<p>Speaking from an applicant&#x27;s perspective:<p>Heck yea, study up no matter how trivial you think it is or how it belittles your years of experience. Remember that this crude method is not an accurate measure of the hiring company&#x27;s potential or yours. It&#x27;s just a filtering mechanism for both sides to start a dialog.
nogbit超过 8 年前
Wow, instead, get 100% response rate from only the 5 jobs one should really apply for because they have a personal story to tell that is a great match for the work being asked. I&#x27;ve done that twice. Throwing your name against the wall results in a whole lot of wasted time. You got some offers, great, but next time be picky!
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TXV超过 8 年前
I live in what should be considered a developed country in Europe with 5 years work exp also abroad, of which almost 2 of software development in a highly specialized field, and I make one third (1&#x2F;3) of what the average CS grad makes in SF. It feels very bad...
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maxaf超过 8 年前
&gt; Early on, I gained experience, built confidence, and secured offers from companies that had less intensive interviews.<p>I hate being used for interview practice. Don&#x27;t apply to work for me unless you&#x27;re intending to accept an offer.
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ubersoldat2k7超过 8 年前
How do you even manage this amount of information? A notebook can help but once you hit the 20 applications mark, it&#x27;s impossible to know to which companies you applied for.
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ryanmccullagh超过 8 年前
I wonder how much Live Coding he had to do. I&#x27;ve been interviewing like crazy lately, and I&#x27;ve learned I hate live coding, and &quot;thinking out loud&quot;. You&#x27;re in a room with your laptop hooked up to the monitor, and 2 people are watching you code. Any small typing mistake or mouse movements can be a negative on your review. Live coding should die.
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qwtel超过 8 年前
This reminded me of that scene from &quot;The Big Short&quot;:<p>Mark Baum: I don&#x27;t get it. Why are they confessing? Danny Moses: They&#x27;re not confessing. Porter Collins: They&#x27;re bragging.
kybernetyk超过 8 年前
Ugh, the code in the teaser image. Triggers my OCD.
jsonmez超过 8 年前
Would love to interview you for Simple Programmer, YouTube and podcast: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;YouTube.com&#x2F;simpleprogrammer" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;YouTube.com&#x2F;simpleprogrammer</a>