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The Axiom of Choice Is Wrong (2007)

110 点作者 jaybosamiya超过 8 年前

19 条评论

fmap超过 8 年前
The problem solution in the article uses the axiom of choice to construct a &quot;nonprincipal ultrafilter&quot; on the natural numbers. This is actually weaker than the full axiom of choice, but you can still show that no such object is computable. It&#x27;s a nice exercise to show that with the same assumptions as in the article you can decide the halting problem. (hint: consider the boolean sequence where the nth element is true iff the Turing machine halts within n steps)<p>As for the axiom of choice, the real problem is trying to claim that it is right or wrong in the first place. Mathematics as a whole has never quite recovered from the failure of Hilbert&#x27;s program... The bottom line is that there is no complete and consistent notion of &quot;truth&quot;. There is no objective mathematical reality, because it cannot include a statements about its own consistency (and it&#x27;s easy to translate this into &quot;statements about certain hard problems&quot;, by exactly the same process we use to show that some problems are NP complete by reduction from another NP complete problem).<p>On the other hand, this is not actually detrimental to mathematical practice. It only means that you have a lot more freedom in modeling your problem domain. For instance, it turns out that set theory with the axiom of choice is a horrible place to do probability theory in (non-measurable sets and functions are a direct consequence, and you have to go to a lot of trouble to exclude them everywhere). If ZFC was part of some objective mathematical reality, then this would in some sense be unavoidable, since ultimately you want to make statements describing reality. On the other hand, once we realize that this assumption is just plainly false, we can start looking for more refined models.
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CJefferson超过 8 年前
As time goes by, I increasingly view things like uncountable infinities and the axiom of choice as &quot;a fun maths game&quot;, rather than having any intrinsic truth or falsity. Other&#x27;s view may differ.<p>Here is an interesting thing I&#x27;ve never seen anyone write down (I should do it myself) -- we don&#x27;t need uncountable infinities.<p>* How many natural numbers are there? Countable<p>* How many rational numbers are there? Countable<p>* How many numbers are solution to a polynomial? Countable<p>* How many numbers are the output of any turing machine (including programs that run forever, producing an infinite decimal)? Countable<p>* How many numbers are the answer to any maths problem anyone can write down (where the problem has at most a countable number of answers)? Countable.<p>If the set of all numbers any can express in any sensible way, and the solution to any problem any could ever have, is countable, why do we need the other uncountables?
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Grue3超过 8 年前
There are many problems with this puzzle that go against the intuition.<p>- the number of prisoners is infinite, so they will never finish answering the question. At any point in time, only a finite number of prisoners will be freed.<p>- a single prisoner must process an infinite amount of information to reach the decision. In fact, by observing only a finite number of hats he cannot possibly choose the answer.<p>- the number of equivalence classes is uncountable. Not even a countably infinite number of prisoners can possibly have enough time to pick out a single element from every equivalence class.
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ramblenode超过 8 年前
What an interesting thought experiment. Lying in bed last night, the best I could come up with (before seeing the optimal solution this morning) was an average of 83 with a minimum of 66.<p>The prisoners agree that every third prisoner, beginning with the first, uses &quot;white&quot; to convey that the subsequent two prisoners are wearing the same color and &quot;black&quot; to convey different colors. Since the second prisoner in each triple knows the color of the third, he can deduce his own color, leaving the third prisoner to also deduce his own color. And of course there&#x27;s a 50&#x2F;50 chance the sacrificial first prisoner in the triple still gets out. I suppose this could be improved upon by later prisoners having a longer memory, but I&#x27;ve already seen the optimal solution. ;)<p>Interested to hear others&#x27; attempts.
Arnavion超过 8 年前
Mathologer recently did a video on the puzzles mentioned in this article: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=aDOP0XynAzA" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=aDOP0XynAzA</a>
EGreg超过 8 年前
The axiom of choice is used to demonstrate the <i>existence</i> of something, in this case a perfect strategy.<p>However, if said strategy&#x27;s implementation requires actual infinities, eg each prisoner having an infinite memory, then that is why you find it intuitively objectionable.<p>It is useful here to think of computer algorithms and not just math. While mathematical arguments have no problem supposing infinite amounts of actors, the next question is whether each actor can have infinite memory.<p>In mathematics, infinity can be thought of as a property of a <i>set</i>. It can also be thought of as some limit of an infinite sequence of operations on sets, which is a statement that is simultaneously true about each member of that sequence.<p>This is useful because it can tie constructions we observe in the real world into patterns that approximate and converge to the limit of this infinite sequence. And then the question is how the computational complexity grows.<p>So in your example here, each FINITE set of prisoners can&#x27;t coordinate a strategy. So there is no &quot;approaching a limit&quot; - the thing only starts working with an infinite set of prisoners, each of whom has infinite memory etc. And that is why you get your intuition alarm bells go off :)<p>But it is even more than that. Your construction requires each prisoner to <i>use the axiom of choice in order to take an action based on the NAME of the chosen member</i> which is used to demonstrate the existence of a sequence of <i>actions</i> that satisfies a certain property. However, when the axiom of choice is used normally, it is not used to actually NAME the chosen element, but merely work with it like a black box. By NAME, I mean an id that distinguishes it from all other elementa, and lets you pick it out and examine is properties THAT ARE DIFFERENT than all other elements in that set.<p>In other words, Sure, you can assume that the chosen &quot;representative&quot; sequence has the same property as any other in the equivalence class -- namely that all but finitely many terms are equal. BUT the part where you &quot;cheat&quot; is having the prisoner &quot;find out&quot; more than that about the representative sequence, in particular its initial values up to an arbitrary depth.
twic超过 8 年前
The axiom of choice always seemed intuitively wrong to me. You can&#x27;t just take a set and arbitrarily pick something out of it! Making a choice requires information, and you can&#x27;t pluck information out of thin air at whim; applying the axiom amounts to creating information out of nothing.<p>I suppose this is because i&#x27;m not a mathematician, but have a natural sciences background. In the physical universe, memorably, &quot;the law that entropy always increases holds, I think, the supreme position among the laws of Nature&quot; [1], and so we do not accept the mathematicians&#x27; fake information.<p>More specifically related to choice from a set, Curie&#x27;s principle that &quot;when certain causes produce certain effects, it is the elements of symmetry of the causes that may be found in the effects produced&quot; [2] forbids something uniform from becoming arbitrarily non-uniform; whenever that appears to happen, there must be some hidden cause which already carries that non-uniformity.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Second_law_of_thermodynamics" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Second_law_of_thermodynamics</a><p>[2] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;hal.archives-ouvertes.fr&#x2F;jpa-00239814" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;hal.archives-ouvertes.fr&#x2F;jpa-00239814</a> - &quot;Enfin, lorsque certaines causes produisent certains effets, les éléments de symétrie des causes doivent se retrouver dans les effets produits.&quot;; please excuse the not-so-literal translation
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im3w1l超过 8 年前
I&#x27;d assume that even if in every case the number of incorrect guesses is finite, the <i>expected number</i> of people that fail to guess their color is infinite.<p>Am I right about this?
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rtpg超过 8 年前
I have a vague understanding of the Axiom of Choice, but I&#x27;ve always had trouble with some of the analogies people use to explain it.<p>Two things that have bugged me for a while:<p>- why is it usually talked about only in the context of infinite sets? Is there a general trick to building a choice function if all you have are finite sets?<p>- There&#x27;s a saying like &quot;you can choose from an infinite set of shoes, but not from an infinite set of socks without AC&quot;. Why exactly?
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wolfgke超过 8 年前
An interesting alternative to the axiom of choice (AC) is the axiom of determinacy (AD): <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;w&#x2F;index.php?title=Axiom_of_determinacy&amp;oldid=738341699" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;w&#x2F;index.php?title=Axiom_of_determin...</a>
DigitalPhysics超过 8 年前
If you&#x27;re interested in the Axiom of Choice, Godel, finitism, pseudo-randomness, complexity, information, and other foundational topics, check out the indie film &quot;Digital Physics&quot; on iTunes, Amazon, or Vimeo. Free packs of trading cards (with gum!) are available too! Check the website.
bananabiscuit超过 8 年前
This problem has exactly the wrong setup for using th the axiom of choice:<p>First, the axiom of choice requires that you have a countable number of sets that you are choosing elements from, but there are undoubtably many of the equivalence classes that he described [0]. So the author is using something stronger than the axiom of choice to arrive at his paradox.<p>Second, if you actually are in a situation where you have to choose from a countably infinite number of sets, you only need the axiom of choice if there is no selection rule for choosing an element available. In this case there is a rule you can use, namely: select the sequence in which the &quot;finite prefix&quot; is all zeros.<p>[0]: the number of equivalence classes is uncountable because there is a 1:1 relation between the equivelance class and an the infinite sequence that is common to all the sequences in the equivalence class once theirs uncommon prefixes have been truncated.
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mrob超过 8 年前
Infinities aren&#x27;t real, so you shouldn&#x27;t be surprised if unrealistic things happen when you invoke infinities. That you can duplicate a sphere by cutting it into a finite number of pieces and reassembling it is a &quot;fact&quot; in the same sense as &quot;Luke Skywalker destroyed the Death Star&quot;. It might be interesting and culturally important, but it&#x27;s talking about fictional entities. Both spheres and arbitrarily detailed pieces of spheres only exist in the imaginations of mathematicians. The Axiom of Choice is obviously true, and the fact that it lets you invent weird sounding stories from weird components is no evidence against it. Don&#x27;t confuse mathematical tools with reality.
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alsadi超过 8 年前
&gt; Sure, this is based primarily on my intuition for finite things and a naive hope that they should extend to infinities.<p>but it&#x27;s known that it does not extend!
pron超过 8 年前
So what bothered the author was the axiom of choice and not the part where a prisoner with a finite brain needs to memorize an infinite amount of information and then perform a computation on infinite information to compute the equivalence class? For this strategy to work you must assume that the prisoners are capable of carrying out noncomputable computations, too. <i>That&#x27;s</i> the more problematic assumption.
eru超过 8 年前
You can generalize their prisoner example to using a countable number of colours, not just two or finite.
jiiam超过 8 年前
In the comments to the linked article there&#x27;s a nice explanation by Terry Tao of why this is not so spectacular, in the sense that our intuition with probabilities here relies on Fubini&#x27;s theorem, which in this case do not apply due to measure theoretic obstacles. But, again, our intuition of probability fails with much easier examples.<p>Here follows Terence Tao&#x27;s comment (refer to the original to have proper rendering of math symbols):<p>&quot;This paradox is actually very similar to Banach-Tarski, but involves a violation of additivity of probability rather than additivity of volume.<p>Consider the case of a finite number N of prisoners, with each hat being assigned independently at random. Your intuition in this case is correct: each prisoner has only a 50% chance of going free. If we sum this probability over all the prisoners and use Fubini’s theorem, we conclude that the expected number of prisoners that go free is N&#x2F;2. So we cannot pull off a trick of the sort described above.<p>If we have an infinite number of prisoners, with the hats assigned randomly (thus, we are working on the Bernoulli space {\Bbb Z}_2^{\Bbb N}), and one uses the strategy coming from the axiom of choice, then the event E_j that the j^th prisoner does not go free is not measurable, but formally has probability 1&#x2F;2 in the sense that E_j and its translate E_j + e_j partition {\Bbb Z}_2^{\Bbb N} where e_j is the j^th basis element, or in more prosaic language, if the j^th prisoner’s hat gets switched, this flips whether the prisoner gets to go free or not. The “paradox” is the fact that while the E_j all seem to have probability 1&#x2F;2, each element of the event space lies in only finitely many of the E_j. This can be seen to violate Fubini’s theorem – if the E_j are all measurable. Of course, the E_j are not measurable, and so one’s intuition on probability should not be trusted here.<p>There is a way to rephrase the paradox in which the axiom of choice is eliminated, and the difficulty is then shifted to the construction of product measure. Suppose the warden can only assign a finite number of black hats, but is otherwise unconstrained. The warden therefore picks a configuration “uniformly at random” among all the configurations with finitely many black hats (I’ll come back to this later). Then, one can again argue that each prisoner has only a 50% chance of guessing his or her own hat correctly, even if the prisoner gets to see all other hats, since both remaining configurations are possible and thus “equally likely”. But, of course, if everybody guesses white, then all but finitely many go free. Here, the difficulty is that the group \lim_{n \to \infty} {\Bbb Z}_2^n is not compact and so does not support a normalised Haar measure. (The problem here is similar to the two envelopes problem, which is again caused by a lack of a normalised Haar measure.)&quot;
IshKebab超过 8 年前
How can an axiom be &#x27;wrong&#x27;?
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Ceezy超过 8 年前
YOUR MATH ARE WRONG<p>If prisonners follow the last strategy, the dude number 0 as a probability of finding his hat of 50% and the dude number 1 000 000 50%. Why? because nobody knows how many times they will lose. Those who are sure to win are those close to infinity... This have nothing to do with Axiom of Choice. But only because almost all the mass of your distribution is near infinty. With or without Axiom of Choice this things exist.