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We should kill the 40-hour work week

253 点作者 jjoachim3大约 8 年前

41 条评论

minimuffins大约 8 年前
We should absolutely kill the 40 hour week and replace it with a 30 hour week.<p>&gt; the 40-hour work week doesn’t work anymore<p>Doesn’t work for who? What does “works” mean anyway? Maximizes efficiency for our employers? Why is that the question? What works for <i>you</i>? Why not ask what works to maximize your happiness and flourishing? What works for me is fewer working hours in the week (doesn’t matter what time of day it was that I logged them) and more time to do whatever I want, whether that&#x27;s coding, walking a dog, reading or doing absolutely nothing. We went from 80 hour to 40 hour weeks 100 years ago, why is 40 to 30 such a stretch today?<p>&gt; During the Industrial Revolution, factories needed to be running around the clock so employees during this era frequently worked between 10-16 hour days. In the 1920s however, Henry Ford, founder of Ford Motor Company, decided to try something different: His workers would only work 8 hours a day, 5 days a week.<p>That is completely ahistorical! The 8 hour day was carved out from the 16 hour day and paid for in blood by a militant labor movement over several decades, not granted magnanimously by Henry Ford. You don’t have to consult obscure labor history to find that out: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Eight-hour_day" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Eight-hour_day</a>
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codingdave大约 8 年前
While I love my flexible, remote schedule... and I loved alternative schedules when I was in my 20s and had no children. The standard 40 hour week offers a stable schedule to the large population that does have children, and needs to both work a full time job to collect a paycheck while also knowing they can be home almost every hour their child is out of school.<p>I&#x27;m not arguing against flexible scheduling -- I live that life, and I will proclaim its benefits as much as anyone. But to really engage in a meaningful discussion about it, we need to realize that different people have different needs. And for much of the working population, the primary need is about providing for their family, not self-fulfillment in their own work.
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pcmonk大约 8 年前
&gt; Give yourself one day with no work<p>If killing the 40-hour work week means I&#x27;m now working six days a week instead of five, then long live the 40-hour work week.<p>Some people (myself included) need two days per week off work, except in special circumstances. We also need to be able to clock out of work and not feel bad about doing so just because we still have work. The worst thing about university to me was the feeling of always having more work to do. I understand avoiding the &quot;I&#x27;m just working until the clock hand turns a little further&quot; state, but often the cumulative effects of the proposed alternative are worse.
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dilemma大约 8 年前
Large corporations need hordes of people doing boring work in a reliable and predictable, easily manageable manner. Society needs what large corporations produce. People need the wages these corporations pay. The 40hr work week is going nowhere.
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mtw大约 8 年前
Good article but in essence, it only works for freelancers, especially the 20 something kind who programs or designs and interacts with his customer through skype.<p>Modern society has conventions that makes it work well. Like the expectation that the delivery guy will work from 9-to-5, instead of trying to deliver at 2am or in a Sunday morning, because that&#x27;s optimal for his circadian rhytm. Same for the bank or the library or Starbucks open during the day. This convention lets us help plan our day. Without these you will have to plan for contingencies. These can be acute when you have a chronic disease, disabled or have babies&#x2F;children. You just wish that everyone works 9 to 5 just so you can go through the day.
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lsy大约 8 年前
In its history of the 40-hour week, the article omits the substantial contribution of organized labor to fighting for shorter hours:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Eight-hour_day" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Eight-hour_day</a><p>Keeping this history in mind might allow us to determine other reasons and means for improving on the workweek than pure business interest.
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beat大约 8 年前
Crediting the 40 hour week to Henry Ford&#x27;s business acumen is a common mistake.<p>The call for eight hour workdays was over a century old by the time Henry Ford implemented it. It was a major point of discussion for Karl Marx. Forty years before Henry Ford&#x27;s supposedly brilliant insight, in the Bay View Labor Riot of 1886, the Wisconsin state militia opened fire on labor activists protesting for an eight hour workday, killing seven.<p>None of this is new. This is a battle labor has been fighting for two centuries now.
JDiculous大约 8 年前
You guys are all totally missing the point.<p>The whole concept of an X hour work week is stupid for most of us on HN in knowledge intensive industries.<p>It makes sense if the work you&#x27;re doing is a direct function of time - think receptionists, cashiers, phone customer service, assembly line workers.<p>If the work is knowledge intensive, then your output is generally not a mere function of hours worked. In software engineering, productivity can vary enormously when you&#x27;re &quot;in-the-zone&quot; vs. feeling tired and sluggish. I&#x27;m not talking about a mere 15% difference in peak productivity vs. least productive, I&#x27;m talking multiples (short example I wrote <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.jbernier.com&#x2F;how-to-work-efficiently-and-stop-wasting-your-time" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.jbernier.com&#x2F;how-to-work-efficiently-and-stop-was...</a>).<p>Judging an employee by &quot;hours of ass in chair in office staring at computer screen&quot; in a knowledge intensive field is an extremely inaccurate and lazy metric, used by non-technical managers who can&#x27;t think of better ways to gauge the output of their employees.
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deedubaya大约 8 年前
Everyone here seems to be thinking in hours, like they actually equate to produced product. I don&#x27;t think that&#x27;s really the case. It&#x27;s more like working 8 hours a day so you can find that productive 2 hours in the middle somewhere where things get done.<p>As a manager, I don&#x27;t care at all if my employees work 40 hours or 4 hours. I care about what they get done regardless of the time it takes or when they do it (to some degree). This requires _active_ management in their day-to-day with the domain knowledge to call bullshit when things aren&#x27;t getting done.<p>This management style doesn&#x27;t scale to large teams, but I find it very effective.
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TurboHaskal大约 8 年前
Having a bit of experience and knowing what &quot;result oriented with flexible schedule&quot; actually stands for, I think I&#x27;ll keep my 40 hour week. Thanks.
minikites大约 8 年前
As long as the USA is still a nation that takes pride in the sort of values shown in this infuriating Cadillac advertisement (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=7WKgSCPqY4M" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=7WKgSCPqY4M</a>), working long (unproductive) hours isn&#x27;t going away any time soon.
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jacquesm大约 8 年前
Besides all the scheduling trouble that would cause, what will you replace it with?<p>The 40 hour work week is an achievement, and if it is to be killed I would propose replacing it with the 32 hour workweek or a 24 hour one. Definitely not with a lack of structure.<p>I&#x27;ve worked for some companies long ago that did not adhere to the 40 hour workweek. Let&#x27;s just say I would have been much happier if they had and that&#x27;s not because they decided to go for 32 hours or 40 hours whenever I wanted to work them if you thought that was the case.
codr4life大约 8 年前
We should kill work, period. This is not the way it always was, and it&#x27;s not the way it always will be. This is a brief moment in evolution, a learning experience. If some didn&#x27;t insist on having plenty more than others, there would be enough for everyone without anyone working for anyone; and once you have everything provided, helping out is the natural thing to do.
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thatfrenchguy大约 8 年前
&quot;On days where I put in less than 8 or 10 hours of work, I feel a bit guilty&quot;<p>You need workaholism consulting. Repeat after me: more hours do not mean higher throughput.
Longhanks大约 8 年前
No, we shouldn&#x27;t. Most people are totally fine with it, me included. Why change something that works? There are always people not satisfied with the current system, but for the majority of our society, the 40 hours a week model is fine. And if it isn&#x27;t, there are plenty of other options - maybe you have to look harder for them, but it&#x27;s definitly possible to work on different schedules, too.
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GoToRO大约 8 年前
My proposal: 3 days work week. 3 days works the father, 3 days the mother, one day free for the whole family. Import taxes for all goods that come from countries that don&#x27;t implement this.<p>As for the article, yes, it&#x27;s true. But you need to have a &quot;results based environment&quot;. This further needs that your manager can do your work. This means it will not work in most companies.
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MichaelBurge大约 8 年前
&gt; So the 8-hour work day, 5-day workweek wasn’t chosen as the way to work for scientific reasons; instead, it was partly driven by the goal of increasing consumption.<p>Money doesn&#x27;t really work like that, unless you A. Saddle employees with debt or B. Boost short-term revenue so the company looks more attractive to investors.<p>Or is the idea that Ford would set an example so that the entire industry would start doing this, which benefits him more?<p>Keep in mind Ford also hired investigators to check up on his employees&#x27; morality:<p>&gt; To qualify for his doubled salary, the worker had to be thrifty and continent. He had to keep his home neat and his children healthy, and, if he were below the age of twenty-two, to be married.<p>You could argue that Ford wanted model Protestants as employees because they increased productivity, but it&#x27;s a more elaborate argument that just picking a quote or two. He may have done it for religious reasons.
joosters大约 8 年前
We&#x27;ve had the concept of &#x27;flexi-time&#x27; for decades, where people can start and finish work at different times, so they can work at the time of day that best suits them.
maxerickson大约 8 年前
The easy way to implement this is to place enormous taxes on benefits.<p>Companies aren&#x27;t going to cut hours much when it drives up the effective cost of benefit packages.
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pcmonk大约 8 年前
Site&#x27;s down for me. Cache: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;webcache.googleusercontent.com&#x2F;search?q=cache:RzYQ6Q-_W00J:https:&#x2F;&#x2F;crew.co&#x2F;blog&#x2F;why-you-shouldnt-work-set-hours&#x2F;+&amp;cd=1&amp;hl=en&amp;ct=clnk&amp;gl=us" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;webcache.googleusercontent.com&#x2F;search?q=cache:RzYQ6Q...</a>
partycoder大约 8 年前
I am more against open office plans than 40 hours weeks.<p>I also think people should be allowed to take naps rather than coffee breaks.
peterwwillis大约 8 年前
Man I hate pretentious privileged startup people who try to apply their incredibly rare circumstances to the entire society.<p>Most people I know would kill to work only 40 hours. Only one had so much free time that he quit to freelance, and he was an IT worker. Now he&#x27;s constantly busy.
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Chinjut大约 8 年前
There is a frequent pattern which concerns me of primarily justifying the desire for reduced work hours in terms of the alleged increase in productivity this will bring about (by allowing recharging, preventing burnout, etc.).<p>I worry that this already concedes too much. This allows for just as much stressful dominance of work over the rest of life, and shame over any deviation from this script, as maximizes productivity.<p>Even if my shorter-work-hours productivity doesn&#x27;t match my longer-work-hours productivity, I&#x27;d still prefer shorter-work-hours, with no guilt over having those preferences. My goal in life is not to optimize everything I do for maximum benefit of my employer; I have my own priorities and trade-offs to worry about.
geodel大约 8 年前
40 hr &#x2F;week is anyway going to die due to massive lack of jobs. Governments&#x2F;businesses will get forced to either layoff people or reduce hours. Till now layoffs seems cleaner solution to tackle less work&#x2F;more productivity scenario. In first world tech sector where where 6 figure dollar salaries are common, less work even with lesser pay may be manageable scenario. For the poorer and heavily populated 3rd world productivity gains will increasingly cause massive rupture in social stability.<p>Just today I read in India increasing automation is causing either major layoffs or no new jobs in sectors as diverse as mining, banking, IT, manufacturing etc.
throwaway420大约 8 年前
* The article makes some great observations about energy levels. I think you can definitely run a company more productively if employees had more leeway about picking their own hours as long as the job gets done. Anecdotally, I&#x27;d get far more work done if I set aside just around 9-midnight every night for coding from home rather than waking up early and slogging to an office.<p>* The article presents some opinions without really justifying them. According to who exactly does the 40-hour work week not work anymore? It works great for some folks, it works badly for others. Personally, I&#x27;d rather see more people working less, and I think more jobs should be more flexible about things like remote working and letting people pick their hours when possible.<p>* This article also erroneously gets some history wrong. People like to cite some of Ford&#x27;s management innovations as some magnanimous gesture on his part to give employees enough cash to buy more products. The reality is that he was initially having a problem keeping employees because assembly-line work is so monotonous and doesn&#x27;t leave much room for human contact and many employees would quit or inconsistently show up to work after a while. He was trying to make working conditions as good as possible to reduce employee turnover&#x2F;absenteeism, greatly reducing his recruiting&#x2F;training expenses in the long run and making things run smoother on a daily basis. It was in his self-interest to do this because once you got a great Ford job you wouldn&#x27;t quit or just not show up to go to a baseball game or whatever people did back in those days. I believe some people erroneously got this part of history wrong because there&#x27;s a narrative out there that the free market is some kind of predatory exploitative thing that needs to be completely controlled or it will work to destroy people. To me, that&#x27;s incorrect because employers also need to compete for employees&#x27; labor. Going forward, innovative and smart companies will increasingly offer things like remote working, picking your own hours, limited work week, etc to compete for the most talented employees. Some companies might want butts in seats at 9AM and will compete by offering cash. That&#x27;s fine too, let people have a choice.
PublicFace大约 8 年前
Kill the &quot;work week&quot; concept too while we&#x27;re at it. Are we seriously going to continue the fallacy that humans only work on specific religiously appointed days?<p>Just start moving to results only work environments.
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carapace大约 8 年前
Bucky Fuller determined that, by some time in the 1970&#x27;s, we could provide a high standard of living for everyone on Earth while only working a few hours a week. IIRC, he postulated that most people would have to work for about two years and then they could retire. All we have to do is apply the technology we already have in a sensible manner to meet our needs.<p>In other words, all our problems now are psychological, not physical.
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johnb777大约 8 年前
Sweden tested a 30 hour work-week and found it to be too costly. For some professions it just isn&#x27;t realistic (e.g. supply chain&#x2F;logistics industry).<p>For the professions where it is more realistic, maybe give them the option of finishing up the week at 30 hours but don&#x27;t set a hard cut-off. I&#x27;ve found that the more work-hour freedom people are given, the better quality work ends up getting done.
kilroy123大约 8 年前
I was lucky enough to work for a &quot;technical&quot; non-profit for a few years. We worked 7 hours a day instead of a full 8. It was absolutely amazing. It was the perfect amount of time I felt. I noticed I slacked off less to get everything done in a day.<p>Honestly, if we worked that extra hour each day, it would of have been spent surfing the internet. Spending more time making coffee, chatting, lunch etc.
koolba大约 8 年前
The best part of a 9-5&#x2F;40-hour work week are the hours where everybody else is gone. That&#x27;s when you get the real work done.
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aecorredor大约 8 年前
There&#x27;s a book called &quot;The Power of When&quot; which I hear talks about how every person is different, and how depending on what type you are your day should be structured differently. Could be an interesting read when deciding if the 40 hour work week is appropriate or not.
st3v3r大约 8 年前
This is just awful. Only one night a week where you don&#x27;t work? &quot;Try removing work completely for a day&quot;. I do it for two days: the weekend.<p>This article is basically arguing that you should spend all your time working, without being bold enough to come out and say it.
simplehuman大约 8 年前
Why do I feel all alone in loving the 40 hour week :) realistically this is 35 hours a week after the commute. And I like my 2 days off where I can ignore work issues completely.<p>And personally for me working in an office is more attractive than flexible remote work.
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rolodato大约 8 年前
If you&#x27;re working alone or completely asynchronously sure, that makes sense. But how do you account for collaborative work that needs to be done in a group?
Apocryphon大约 8 年前
Met a former Solyndra employee. He said they used to have 12-hour days, but the tradeoff is that they had four days weekends. Sounds amazing for the employee.
petergatsby大约 8 年前
Informative piece on circadian rhythm -- not sure how it justifies getting rid of the 40-hour work week.
PatentTroll大约 8 年前
What should we do about the 70 hour work week? Somewhat sarcastic, but mostly serious.
Entangled大约 8 年前
I, as an independent coder, enjoy my 90 hour work week.<p>And I am in my 50s.
dlwj大约 8 年前
This article is mostly about scheduling, but a bigger issues is actually amount of actual work. (Ignoring cases where amount of perceived work is important like in Japan)<p>A “reasonable” amount of work basically always comes down to what someone is willing to sacrifice. A cushy work week is basically always subsidized by other people. It’s often very indirect, like a factory in China. When this information is forcefully shoved in a person’s face, their moral compass gives them no other choice but to protest against the Foxconns of the world.<p>Unions formally define what is reasonable, but there is also a cultural form of unionization. In the U.S. H1B’s implicitly acknowledge this possibility. They look to join teams that have this cultural unionization. If half of the non-H1B’s go home at 5, management cannot force overtime from everyone else without it being egregious. This disappears when the team is mostly H1B’s or even if the manager him&#x2F;herself went through this process. (Startups, rather than look for H1B’s, look for “culture fit”)<p>Cultural homogenization allows a shared definition of reasonable-ness without needing formal structures. With a non-homongenous culture, the “lazier” cultures lose out to the more “hardworking” cultures. The “lazier” cultures would like a rule that says “You must eat out at least one a week, and enjoy a movie, and NOT let your money compound for your children.” Otherwise, the culture that is more willing to work hard effectively undermines the desire to live comfortably of other cultures. In the Bay Area, western culture simply cannot compete with Chinese culture when it comes to housing bids. It’s 1 couple vs an entire family of savers.<p>There should obviously be a law to prevent Olympic athletes from taking a super-drug that will allow them to win a gold medal and then drop dead afterwards. But should there be one to prevent parents from overworking for their children?<p>IMO, when the amount of wealth in the world reaches the point where everyone can live comfortably if it were evenly divided, a casual lifestyle will naturally emerge. Prior to that though, there will always be people more willing to work hard. In order for a cushy lifestyle to be sustained, there must be an explicit border or wall (physical or otherwise) that divides people into homogenous cultures. People in each group must be willing to work around the same.<p>In the U.S. sweatshop and factory conditions are protested against, but in those same countries, they are prestigious jobs that can lift a family out of an agrarian lifestyle into technical or knowledge work. The willingness to fight over pennies subsidizes the casual picking of dollars. With China moving towards picking up dollars, there is no longer a large enough penniy-picking population to sustain it. (Which is why China internally subdivides into a 1st world portion and a 3rd world subsidizing population).<p>With globalization comes cultural mixing. A large portion of Trump voters realize this threat to their lifestyle (and many have probably already been affected and have trouble making ends meet) and think that re-establizing cultural zones will fix the issue (with a literal wall…) but it won’t. Solutions to questions about how to work and live comfortably without solving the global wealth distribution problem basically are all forms of indirect subsidization, making it zero sum. (Aside, religion can actually be used as a force to sub-divide a population into a culture that desires less, allow them to subsidize a smaller population that want to live more comfortably)
jozzz大约 8 年前
No one&#x27;s genetically a &#x27;night owl&#x27;. Stop drinking caffeine.
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taken__--大约 8 年前
Oh man, people work 12 hours a day (like me) and you complain about a 40-hour week??