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How Western Civilization Could Collapse

56 点作者 probe大约 8 年前

12 条评论

vinceguidry大约 8 年前
I am unconvinced, both by the comparison of the modern social order to a bicycle and by historical comparisons to Rome.<p>In the first place, economic growth slows down and reverses from time to time. Society doesn&#x27;t collapse. People paint the Great Depression as having been &quot;saved&quot; by WW2, not as a sequence of events that all fed into each other. In other words, if the Great Depression and subsequent world war <i>wasn&#x27;t</i> a perfect example of the worst that could possibly happen, I dare you to point out a <i>plausible</i> worse scenario.<p>No, nuclear war doesn&#x27;t count, even the worst nuclear war imaginable won&#x27;t be as bad as WW2 was. Nuclear winter is a myth, the particles fall out of the air too quickly, and the inverse square law greatly limits direct damage. Most civilian population centers won&#x27;t get hit, unless we start another arms race, so we&#x27;re looking at a few decades at most of economic disruption in the worst possible case.<p>Finally, the Roman Empire was in no way comparable to the current global regime. The political systems seen by Rome were downright primitive compared to our representative democracies, multi-state unions, and trade federations. The Anglosphere is in no way vulnerable to dictatorship, and while Europe was once capable of fascism in the past, the days where a would-be Hitler or Mussolini could whip populations into a murderous frenzy are long gone. The worst that can happen is sovereign devolution AKA Brexit, Grexit, Scottish independence <i>et al</i>.<p>The might of Western hegemony is going to slowly fade away and new regional orders will slowly gain strength. The EU will slowly evolve along those orders and the world will stumble towards a new, multi-polar equilibrium, out of which a new global governing body will emerge, fail, then emerge again.<p>Rome &quot;collapsed&quot; by spreading across Europe, Western civilization will &quot;collapse&quot; by spreading across the globe.
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chmln大约 8 年前
&gt; The Syrian case aside, another sign that we’re entering into a danger zone, Homer-Dixon says, is the increasing occurrence of what experts call nonlinearities, or sudden, unexpected changes in the world’s order, such as the 2008 economic crisis, the rise of ISIS, Brexit, or Donald Trump’s election.<p>Unexpected or rather unexpected to those on the far-left of the political spectrum, who very much like their far-right counterparts often live in echo chambers.<p>Growing dissatisfaction against globalism and feeble governance didn&#x27;t happen overnight.<p>Those who failed to notice it simply were not looking in the right places.
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dvdhnt大约 8 年前
My favorite part -<p>&gt; one of the most important lessons from Rome’s fall is that complexity has a cost. As stated in the laws of thermodynamics, it takes energy to maintain any system in a complex, ordered state – and human society is no exception.
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factsaresacred大约 8 年前
&gt; Pre-existing ethnic tensions increased, creating fertile grounds for violence and conflict.<p>Indeed. We have no shortage of reasons to bash one another over the head, but this one is surely one of the most prevalent. Diversity (of fundamental values and identity) breeds distrust, and distrust erodes social capital and institutions.*<p>What these doomsday articles don&#x27;t discuss is what exactly the West collapses into? I mean, we&#x27;re still going to be here among the ruins even if the pillars of society collapse. What then?<p>Perhaps we&#x27;ll collapse <i>up</i>, into a more equitable, fairer society.<p>* <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;archive.boston.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;globe&#x2F;ideas&#x2F;articles&#x2F;2007&#x2F;08&#x2F;05&#x2F;the_downside_of_diversity&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;archive.boston.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;globe&#x2F;ideas&#x2F;articles&#x2F;2007&#x2F;08&#x2F;...</a>
chillacy大约 8 年前
&gt; Eventually, the working population crashes because the portion of wealth allocated to them is not enough, followed by collapse of the elites due to the absence of labour<p>I wonder how automation changes the balance here.
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bleair大约 8 年前
This is the best summary of the debate about climate change I&#x27;ve seen -<p>Unfortunately, some experts believe such tough decisions exceed our political and psychological capabilities. “The world will not rise to the occasion of solving the climate problem during this century, simply because it is more expensive in the short term to solve the problem than it is to just keep acting as usual,” says Jorgen Randers
norea-armozel大约 8 年前
I have to wonder if in some part what happened during the Bronze Age is destined to happen again? I can see the US here going belly up if someone was inclined to test the US resolve to defend the likes of Saudi Arabia (considering its contribution to the world oil markets is non-trivial and probably not easily replaced). What I&#x27;m getting at with that hypothetical situation is that we&#x27;re probably too interconnected now just like we were in the Bronze Age and with sustained disruptions to vital resources I can imagine things getting bad in a hurry. I just wish more folks would take this possibility more seriously and build redundancy and independence where it can minimize the inevitable disruptions of the future.
rdiddly大约 8 年前
Nothing new for those of us who&#x27;ve been well convinced progress isn&#x27;t limitless, and some of whom might even have heard of Tainter. What <i>is</i> new is that a fairly mainstream news outlet is actually addressing the issue. A longtime litany of complaint in the &quot;doomer&quot; &quot;community&quot; (grains of salt needed) is that there&#x27;s no mainstream consensus about or attention to these predicaments at either a root level or a big-picture level.
brilliantcode大约 8 年前
I think the gist of the article is that western styled democracy is always going to be more vastly more expensive &amp; economically fragile than any authoritarian superpower that can simply threaten to kill it&#x27;s own people or harvest their organs to boost GDP and serve it&#x27;s elite.<p>It uses Syria to make case that climate change was responsible butterly effect:<p>&gt; . Syria, for example, enjoyed exceptionally high fertility rates for a time, which fueled rapid population growth. A severe drought in the late 2000s, likely made worse by human-induced climate change, combined with groundwater shortages to cripple agricultural production. That crisis left large numbers of people – especially young men – unemployed, discontent and desperate. Many flooded into urban centres, overwhelming limited resources and services there. Pre-existing ethnic tensions increased, creating fertile grounds for violence and conflict. On top of that, poor governance – including neoliberal policies that eliminated water subsidies in the middle of the drought – tipped the country into civil war in 2011 and sent it careening toward collapse.<p>Which is shockingly accurate.<p>It makes parallel case for the rise of populism in US and EU becoming an increasingly less welcoming region as it faces the full pressure from collapsed countries in the middle east.<p>tl;dr: learn Mandarin or Russian because they are far more likely to survive a global economic collapse.
chrismealy大约 8 年前
Homer-Dixon&#x27;s book is really good. Tainter&#x27;s is a classic but it&#x27;s not fun reading. Homer-Dixon explains Taiter&#x27;s argument well enough.
duggan大约 8 年前
&gt; Denial, including of the emerging prospect of societal collapse itself, will be widespread, as will rejection of evidence-based fact.<p>I want to take this seriously, but I&#x27;m dubious of any argument that uses doubt of its veracity as evidence of its correctness.
belovedeagle大约 8 年前
Wealth redistribution: a solution in search of a problem. The article does nothing to link this supposed solution to the world&#x27;s problems​; it merely asserts this dubious connection.<p>Of course the article shows its bias more clearly here:<p>&gt; Whether in the US, UK or elsewhere, the more dissatisfied and afraid people become, Homer-Dixon says, the more of a tendency they have to cling to their in-group identity – whether religious, racial or national. Denial, including of the emerging prospect of societal collapse itself, will be widespread, as will rejection of evidence-based fact. If people admit that problems exist at all, they will assign blame for those problems to everyone outside of their in-group, building up resentment.<p>This is using a lot of loaded language to suggest that it&#x27;s primarily the right guilty of these things, but identity politics is a mainstay of the left, at least in the US. Could it be that eliminating identity politics is more important than redistributing wealth?
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