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Coding Horror: Paul Graham's Participatory Narcissism

121 点作者 sharksandwich大约 17 年前

25 条评论

pg大约 17 年前
This, judging from the fact that it's in bold, appears to be his main gripe:<p><pre><code> "The problem with this particular essay is the way Mr. Graham implies the only path to true happiness as a young programmer lies in founding a startup." </code></pre> whereas the essay actually contains the sentence:<p><pre><code> "Working for yourself doesn't have to mean starting a startup, of course. </code></pre> I mean, how much clearer can I be?<p>As for this point about "participatory narcissism," you can make the same attack on practically every nonfiction writer. Every (good) essayist writes from experience. Most people who have the freedom to work on what they want, work on things they admire. Every book on robotics or carpentry or surfing has woven through it the sinister subtext that robotics or carpentry or surfing is an admirable activity. But to accuse the writer of "participatory narcissism" is to confuse cause and effect: the writer of the robotics book isn't claiming robotics is admirable to make himself look good; it was because he thought it was admirable that he chose to work on it.<p>A claim you could make with equal justification about any essayist isn't much of a claim. But people will still believe it means something if they disagree with him.
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cperciva大约 17 年前
Jeff Atwood could certainly have made his case in a better way, but I think he has a point here.<p>There are many perfectly legitimate reasons for working at a large company; family responsibilities (yes, there are mid-twenties and early-thirties programmers with a spouse and children), a chronic medical condition (if I were living in the US, my medical bills would be upwards of $20k/year, and I know I'm not alone), or being dedicated to a non-economically-profitable pursuit (if you want to spend 2 months a year volunteering in sub-Saharan Africa, many employers will let you have the time off -- a startup won't) are a few possibilities. Comparing people who decide to work for a large company to caged animals, and suggesting that they are "ten times [less] alive" is condescending, and ignores the fact that they might seem far more lively when they are with their families or pursuing whatever activities they enjoy -- or that if they worked for a startup, they might not be able to afford the medicine which keeps them alive.<p>I consider myself fortunate that I can do something I enjoy and have a reasonable chance of making money doing it; but not everybody is so lucky, and we should not insult such unfortunates by suggesting that they made poor choices or are somehow behaving unnaturally.
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ojbyrne大约 17 年前
While I realize that YCombinator is trying to change this, here's my startup experience.<p>1. Inspired by PG's rhetoric, go into partnership with semi-famous TV talk show host to build site.<p>2. Work ass off for 9 months. Site grows like gangbusters, VCs banging on the doors.<p>3. VCs/Partner bring in new CEO. Partner/CEO fill every position above entry level with new hires.<p>4. My job is now 9-5, cubicle, no chance of advancement.<p>5. CEO and partner now described as "founders" in the press.<p>So I mostly followed PG's advice, only to end up in the exact same mind-numbing job he's saying to avoid.
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iamelgringo大约 17 年前
I've worked in Silicon Valley as an ER nurse for the past 2 years, and I've seen a lot of Software Engineers come and go through my department. And, I'll have to say, at the nurses station, when the patients aren't around, there is a stereotype that we have about Software Engineers, and often snicker at.<p>If a man in his 20's and 30's comes in to triage looking haunted and complaining of chest pain, problems sleeping, or weird psycho-somatic complaints, one of the first questions we ask is, "Are you a software engineer?" The answer is invariably, "Yes." And, around the nurses station, we all share a chuckle and a "tsk, tsk" at this poor, overworked, overstressed man.<p>There is a stereotype, and like all generalizations, it has it's exceptions. But, it's enough of a stereotype that the nurses I work with have been very concerned about my going back to school for Computer Science. Most of the nurses that haven worked in the Valley for years thought that being a software engineer was a crap job compared to being an ER nurse. And, that's saying something since a substantial portion of our job involves actual crap. It's wasn't until I explained that I want to start a company that my coworkers became a bit more supportive of the idea. I even had doctors talk to me in concerned tones about the unhealthy levels of stress that engineers work with in the Valley, to try and talk me out of my second career. In the ER, we see the same haunted, caged look that Paul refers to in this article.<p>I think that what PG was referring to was the idea of a powerful animal who's behavior and demeanor changes markedly in different environments. I don't really think that he was trying to put people down who work at a 9-5 for whatever reason. Paul didn't refer to the 9 to 5'ers as caged monkeys, or caged rats, he called them caged lions for a reason.<p>I don't think that it just applies to Software engineers, either. I saw the same change in my father when he left his job at 60 to pursue managing his investments 10 years ago. There was a very marked change in the man. A great metaphor for that would be describing as the difference as that of a caged lion vs lion roaming free on the savanna.<p>I normally like Jeff's writing. I have to disagree with him this time. Perhaps the problem is that maybe Jeff hasn't been on safari. Perhaps he hasn't seen enough men change like lions set free once they don't have to work a 9-5 that they hate. Paul says that he's seen similar changes in a number of founder's they've funded over the past couple of years. As someone who feels rather caged in their day job, I hope I get to see those same changes in myself this fall as I start my first business.
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davidw大约 17 年前
I don't really agree with Mr. Horror, but sometimes I do wonder what PG does to, shall we say, "stay challenged". Surrounding yourself with younger, less experienced people (albeit very smart ones) who owe you is not an environment I would think of as one likely to create a lot of pushback. Maybe it shouldn't, either, as that's not what YC is for, but you do need that kind of thing from somewhere in your life if you wish to continue your intellectual growth.
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david927大约 17 年前
I think all of this is too simplistic. Follow your passion, and take bigger risks while you can (because when you're older it gets harder), is great advice. But Paul needs to understand that his passion is not everyone else's. I know many people who found a start-up for the wrong reasons. There's a get-rich-quick-scheme premise in a lot of Web 2.0 start-ups that I find sad. To look down on employees is to not understand that their passion may lie elsewhere, or that they're waiting for the right moment. I've had three start-ups and was an employee several times as well. None of it defines me.
edw519大约 17 年前
&#60;EssayFormula&#62;<p>Observe Something (mostly objective)<p>Generalize (subjective leap)<p>Expand (more subjective)<p>Conclude &#38; Recommend (very subjective)<p>Let It Go (expose bullseye)<p>&#60;/EssayFormula&#62;<p>Observe corporate programmers --&#62; zoo animals = small leap<p>Writing about what you know ---&#62; "Participatory Narcissism" = large leap<p>Funny, Jeff Atwood does EXACTLY what he accuses pg of doing, albeit with less style.<p>pg is at a unique intersection to observe that which most never see. We don't have to agree with the leap - that's what makes this a forum instead of a circle jerk.<p>I, for one, look forward to pg writing about what he knows. If only others did it as well.
jbyers大约 17 年前
"Participatory Narcissism"<p>Never have so many syllables been used to incite so many about so little.
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andreyf大约 17 年前
The essay does take advantage over the common "naturalistic fallacy", where people imply something as being "good" from its being "natural". As a simple counterexample, many diseases are "natural" and many antibiotics, not.<p>However, I think it's only fair that Paul's motivation for some of his essays is, at least in part, PR work for YC, and hence the fibs (that being the harshest word I'd use) are understandable.
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tel大约 17 年前
I have to agree with Atwood, sort of. I actually see it as a wider condition.<p><i>You Weren't Meant to Have a Boss</i> has a very specific "you" in mind: the kind of people who are aching to become founders (well, obviously). That's in no way a bad thing, but it is worth noting that earlier essays by pg had a wider audience.<p>It's not narcissism, it's focus. It's a symptom of "nearly all the programmers I know are startup founders".
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gruseom大约 17 年前
Paul Graham&#x27;s essays have this weird Rorschach quality whereby people see wildly different things in them. Some readers even get infuriated and seek relief in the judgment that Paul Graham is an arrogant asshole. But I don&#x27;t buy that. (For one thing, if he were, then this site would be more of a personality cult than it is, and many of us would be long gone.) So I&#x27;m curious as to why his essays have this effect on people. It <i>is</i> the essays, by the way. You don&#x27;t hear people saying, &quot;He sold Viaweb to Yahoo? What an asshole!&quot; or &quot;He started a new kind of investment fund, the arrogant prick!&quot;<p>I&#x27;ve got a little theory. It seems to me that the provocative thing about the essays is their <i>aesthetic</i>. They&#x27;re governed by a particular style. One principle in it is minimalism: compress the writing until everything extraneous is gone. Another is vividness: whatever is being said, seek the phrase or image that throws the point into the sharpest possible relief.<p>The dominant quality of the essays is that they pursue this aesthetic ruthlessly. Anything that would use a few extra words to reassure the reader is thrown out. Anything that would tone down an idea a little bit to make it more palatable is thrown out. There isn&#x27;t any room for these things because the author is optimizing for something else - say, meaning per word count. In fact, an entire dimension of language, the phatic dimension, is thrown out.<p>So, Paul Graham&#x27;s writing is radically aphatic. That&#x27;s disorienting. People are used to writing that includes, among its threads, one whose purpose is to reassure you that the author is a nice guy, that he might be wrong, you can still get along even if you disagree, and so on. This is not only absent from the essays, it&#x27;s been deliberately excised. On top of that, what <i>is</i> there has been distilled for maximum impact and often touches subjects that people have strong emotions about, such as programming languages and what we&#x27;re doing with our lives :). Not surprisingly, some readers feel punched in the gut. For them, an obvious explanation is ready at hand: Paul Graham&#x27;s writing is like this because <i>he</i> is like this. He must be someone who doesn&#x27;t care how others feel and wants only to magnify his own grandiose ideas. In short, an arrogant asshole.<p>I think this explains why people project so much emotion into what they read in those essays. &quot;Oh... you haven&#x27;t founded a company? You suck.&quot; But the essays never say anything like that. People don&#x27;t read them this way because they <i>say</i> such things. They read them this way because they <i>lack</i> the kinds of things writers are expected to put in to stave off provocation. They lack these things not because the author is an asshole but because he cares about a certain style of <i>writing</i>. Enough, in fact, to pursue it ruthlessly... in his writing. To naively map that back to the personality of the writer is an obvious error, a kind of reverse ad hominem. But it&#x27;s an understandable error. There aren&#x27;t many people who care that much about an aesthetic. (I mean &quot;aesthetic&quot; in a broad sense, by the way. As much a way of thinking as a cosmetic thing.)<p>No doubt there is a connection between an author&#x27;s personality and his style, but it&#x27;s hardly an isomorphism. I don&#x27;t know Paul Graham, but I know he doesn&#x27;t talk the way he writes. For one thing, one can point to examples (like the interview in Founders At Work). For another, nobody talks like that.
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johns大约 17 年前
Jeff Atwood blogging about another writer's narcissism is the epitome of irony.
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staunch大约 17 年前
A lot of the comments I've read about this essay remind me of the comments on the idea that being in the silicon valley is an advantage for startups. 98% of the negative comments are from people who are responding defensively out of pure emotion.<p>&#62; I work with young startup founders in their twenties. They're geniuses, and play by their own rules. Oh... you haven't founded a company? You suck.<p>The guy that wrote this is saying more about himself than the essay.
startingup大约 17 年前
OK, I agree with 70% of pg's essay, but here is something that worried me. Most YC start-ups want to sell to large companies (they pay better!). Is pg saying that they go from being free men/women to caged animals? Or is he telling them "take your money and run?" If so, wouldn't a large company <i>knowing pg's advice</i> assume that people will leave quickly, so put a lesser valuation on a deal? After all, companies like Google acquire companies like Zenter for the talent as much as for the product. If the attitude is "take your money and run", wouldn't that necessarily lower the value of every YC company in the eyes of the large acquirer?<p>To an extent, there was always an element of start-up founders taking the money and walking, but by making things so explicit ahead of time, isn't pg unwittingly devaluing the very companies he has nurtured?<p>Second, what should an employee number 18 in a Loopt or a Scribd think? Should they start thinking "I am not a founder, so I am missing something". Apply this recursively ... is pg in effecting talking away the very talent that his companies need to grow?
allenbrunson大约 17 年前
i don't agree with the coding horror writer, but i think a lot of people would agree that pg's essays tend to be polarizing.<p>paul's essays sometimes follow a formula. explain three or four alternatives, present arguments for why all but one of them suck. assume the reader will go with the one remaining option. from there, you've got another choice to make. paul presents another three or four options, and explains why all but one of them suck. and so on.<p>a lot of times, while reading, i think: hey, he's just eliminated the option i would have taken for reasons that don't apply to me so much.<p>now, that doesn't mean paul is wrong. but from over here, it seems like he IS somewhat adamant about choosing the One True Way through the sea of the problem he's talking about. whereas other writers might emphasize things like "you could go this way if you want this type of result," or "you could go that way if you've got this type of constraint," etc etc. paul does that sometimes, but his consideration of those constraints almost always leads to dead ends. for example: so you've got a wife and kids to support, therefore you need a steady income. okay then, startups are probably not for you, and you fall off the edge of paul's decision tree. that's got to be maddening for people who buy into paul's philosophy about 80 or 90 percent, except for a few details here and there.<p>it seems to me like a mistake many readers tend to make. paul's not wrong, he's just describing a path that does not fit their situation exactly.
aflag大约 17 年前
I think the essay is much more about telling people they should seek freedom than anything else. Of course, the path Graham knows is through opening a startup, so that's what he advises you to do. It doesn't mean there aren't other means to be free, but working for big companies doesn't look like one. Is the author of coding horror saying it is? I don't even think so, actually.<p>Jeff Atwood is just ranting on Graham, but he's not telling much about Graham's article. He just picks on things that can be seen as polemic or too extreme and trolls away. When you read someone's opinion you have to realise that he's talking about their experience. If Graham had said the only path to true happiness is through a startup -- and he didn't say it like that -- you must acknowledge that he's just saying it's the only path he knows. It's just an opinion, it's not absolut truth. People mix those sometimes.<p>If Jeff wanted to be more helpful he could have told us what paths one has to follow in order to be free. Does he think working for a big company sets you free? Why is he just ranting instead of giving his say on all this?
hbien大约 17 年前
WTF?<p>I understood this post about Joel: <a href="http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/000679.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/000679.html</a><p>And this one about DHH: <a href="http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/001065.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/001065.html</a><p>Now it's PG. I need to start writing blog posts attacking people so I can get some more ad revenue.
revorad大约 17 年前
Brad Bollenbach once wrote: "Complaining and inactionable criticism is the highest form of mental masturbation."<p><a href="http://30sleeps.com/blog/?s=criticism&#38;x=0&#38;y=0&#38;paged=4" rel="nofollow">http://30sleeps.com/blog/?s=criticism&#38;x=0&#38;y=0&#38;pa...</a><p>Does anyone other than pg even attempt to write essays?
Gavin大约 17 年前
The funny thing about all this is that the main criticism of PG's argument is that it is condescending and belittles the huge mass of programmers working for big companies.<p>As with much criticism, it never quite attempts to prove him wrong. Proving that he's offensive is a very different thing.
danbmil99大约 16 年前
"I don't know Paul Graham, but I know he doesn't talk the way he writes. For one thing, one can point to examples (like the interview in Founders At Work). For another, nobody talks like that."<p>heh lol
Xichekolas大约 17 年前
It seems like everyone is focusing on this 'caged lion' thing just like they focused on the lack of unicode support in Arc at first.<p>You have a decently sized essay and the entire internet goes berserk over one line. Did Jeff actually read the whole thing or did he get to the lion part, have some overly-emotional gut reaction, and turn on the flame machine?<p>Talk about blowing something out of proportion.<p>I guess you can consider the article a huge success by the criteria of 'the more people that you piss off, the closer you are to truth' ... <a href="http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html</a>
electric大约 17 年前
So what happened to the Reddits and the Zenters?<p>Lions roaming free and now caged lions as well. Okay maybe a little richer than other caged lions ;).
Prrometheus大约 17 年前
There is no One Right Way. Grow up. Paul Graham is helping people by expounding on his way. Why don't you expound upon yours?
lst大约 17 年前
I never read his essays, but if anyone here is able to arc-ify them (say max. 1-3 sentences each), maybe I would start reading (the arc versions).
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wumi大约 17 年前
so Jeff went through YC? what was his startup?