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Why do so few people major in computer science?

424 点作者 dmnd将近 8 年前

98 条评论

lordnacho将近 8 年前
The grief factor of learning to code is on a different scale to every other major. One missing semicolon will take your whole tower down, and you realise this in the first day of practical exercises.<p>Even if you are of the opinion that CS is math, and coding doesn&#x27;t come into it, you will hit a coding wall early on.<p>In fact, every exercise in CS has this problem. You add a new thing (eg inheritance), and it breaks. But not only that, it might be broken because of a banal little syntax problem.<p>And that&#x27;s just what you consider code. If you put in the wrong compiler flags, it breaks. If you can&#x27;t link because something needed rebuilding, it breaks. Want to avoid it? Learn how make works. Huge number of options, which you won&#x27;t understand, because you&#x27;re a novice.<p>Oh and learn git, too. And Linux. Just so you can hand in the homework.<p>Compare this to the rest of university. I&#x27;ll use my own experience.<p>- Engineering subjects tend to revolve around a small number of vignettes. Here&#x27;s an aircraft engine in thermo. Draw some boundaries, apply some equations. If you get it wrong, your tutor can still see if you were going the right way. Once you&#x27;ve learned the relevant points, it&#x27;s not hard doing some rearrangements and plugging in some numbers.<p>- Economics essays are basically bullet points. Miss one out, you still have an essay. Which you can hand in without knowing git.
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simonsarris将近 8 年前
Slight note about Dan Wang picking 2005: That was the peak of CS degrees awarded because it&#x27;s 4&#x2F;5 years after the height of the dot-com bubble. So the upward bump in the mid-2000&#x27;s is somewhat explainable as an anomaly.<p>I think his point 1 is underrated. CS degrees are flat because aptitude is flat.<p>You can compare CS degrees to other degrees over time at nsf.gov:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nsf.gov&#x2F;statistics&#x2F;2016&#x2F;nsb20161&#x2F;#&#x2F;report&#x2F;chapter-2&#x2F;undergraduate-education-enrollment-and-degrees-in-the-united-states&#x2F;undergraduate-degree-awards" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nsf.gov&#x2F;statistics&#x2F;2016&#x2F;nsb20161&#x2F;#&#x2F;report&#x2F;chapte...</a><p>We have more grads than ever, but they are dumber than ever (we have the data to prove this), getting less difficult degrees.<p>I have a bad feeling that we are running up against some diminishing returns on education and hiding it with numbers like the total number of grads. The number of grads for difficult degrees and the <i>quality</i> of grads seems to be another story.<p>&gt; In 1970s 1-in-2 college grads aced Wordsum test. Today 1-in-6 do. Using that as a proxy for IQ of the median college grad, in the 70’s it was ~112, now its ~100.<p>More stats: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;medium.com&#x2F;@simon.sarris&#x2F;why-is-computer-science-enrollment-so-low-dea064c2f7f0" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;medium.com&#x2F;@simon.sarris&#x2F;why-is-computer-science-enr...</a>
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cynusx将近 8 年前
The whole idea that people pick their education based on rational assumptions when they are 18, know essentially nothing and are coming straight out of an environment where perceived status is all that matters on the playgrounds is ridiculous.<p>The choice of what to study is not a rational decision but a social decision. People follow their friends, guys go study what the hottest girls he knows are going to study, parents push kids to study fields that they themselves perceive as high-status like finance, law or medicine.<p>The biggest problem with computer science degrees is that it is a relatively new field and it hasn&#x27;t been embedded in society as high status yet. This will change, but it will take generations for it to take effect.<p>The field is obviously difficult but you don&#x27;t have to be a genius to get a CS degree, it doesn&#x27;t require much more determination to study ridiculous amounts of jargon for law or medicine degree then to understand complex discrete mathematics problems. The social cost of &quot;failing&quot; a law degree is much higher (parents complain son of X did pass and he had similar SATS) then failing an engineering degree (parents understand &quot;it&quot;, they don&#x27;t understand computers either).
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dahart将近 8 年前
Whoa, that chart seems really misleading. There are 3x more CS majors than math majors and 2x more than physics. The chart is showing derivatives, not absolutes. That basically undermines the title of the article.<p>Looking at the graph, it&#x27;s also <i>super</i> important to see the context before 2005 -- that start date adds significantly to the misleading impression this graph is giving.<p>Math had more majors in 1970 than it does today. Physics has only grown by 50% in the last 40 years, and both have had huge dips just like CS had.<p>I was coming up with some explanations myself, but now I think I reject the premise, and feel like the right question is: why are so many people majoring in CS and so few in math and physics. More math and physics people can code than ever before, it seems like they&#x27;d be able to score coding jobs and be more prepared than a lot of CS grads.
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overgard将近 8 年前
I think the problem is how the subject is taught. I remember my first CS class, and there was quite a bit of diversity that quickly disappeared after the first test when people started dropping the class. (I&#x27;m pretty sure something like half the class disappeared, and I don&#x27;t think this is at all unusual). So why did all those people initially find interest, and then disappear?<p>I remember the way they taught it was VERY dogmatic Java&#x2F;OOP. Putting aside my personal feelings on those subjects, that&#x27;s like teaching someone to swim by throwing them in the ocean without a life jacket. I tutored some other students, and picking up the language AND the IDE and the debugger and understanding compilers -- it was too much. I remember trying to learn java as a kid and being baffled, and then picking up QBasic and basically getting it immediately. QBasic teaches you some awful habits of course, but for a beginner it&#x27;s much easier to reason about and it will teach you how to think like a computer. I&#x27;m not suggesting we go back to teaching QBasic, but it has to be something other than Java. I think CS departments throw everyone in the deep end with an awful curriculum, and then act surprised that everyone leaves except the hardcore nerds that already knew these subjects before they got to school.
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xxSparkleSxx将近 8 年前
I think the market is just way over saturated. Hiring practices for developers point to just that.<p>I mentioned in a different thread how simole it is for my travel-nurse of a sister to get a new job (her stints around the Bay Area paid ~100k and she only has 2 years of experience).<p>Developers jump through hoop after hoop for employment, this wouldn&#x27;t happen if they were in demand like a nurse. The market is just responding appropriately, though maybe not how the masters would prefer it.
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CM30将近 8 年前
I still suspect it&#x27;s this reason from the post:<p>&gt; You don’t need a CS degree to be a developer<p>With another catch. Basically, a lot of people don&#x27;t intend to go into the tech industry right away. No, they end up in it because it&#x27;s one of the faster growing industries with decent financial prospects.<p>So they learn something else, work in a different field for a bit (or a low paid retail job) then end up going into tech where the jobs and money are.<p>Not everyone is &#x27;passionate&#x27; about the subject.
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cs702将近 8 年前
One possible answer no one has mentioned so far is that there many smart, capable people who do NOT want to spend hours every day sitting at a desk, in front of a computer, focused on code, with limited human interaction... so they pursue majors in other fields.
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johan_larson将近 8 年前
I would guess the issue is prestige. Software development, like engineering in general, is not a top-tier profession in the US. The actually top-tier professions are doctor, lawyer, and banker&#x2F;financier. Software developers, like accountants, are well paid but second-tier in status, geeks who worry about the details rather than distinguished professionals who call the shots.<p>Interestingly, the three professions I mentioned above all have graduate degrees, whereas software developers have B.Sc. credentials, if that.
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theprop将近 8 年前
I&#x27;m not sure about that data. Definitely lots of engineers and physicists as it has been noted have programming experience. Beyond that, tons more people are majoring in computer science as of the last 10 years.<p>It&#x27;s become the most popular major at Stanford.<p>At Princeton in just 5 years from 2011 to 2016 it grew 3x to become the most popular major from 36 to 130 majors. At Yale in those 5 years, the number of CS majors doubled (though it&#x27;s not the most popular major there).<p>In at least 3 states now the single most popular job is software engineers (30 years ago in just about every single state it used to be driver), and I imagine that trend is only going to continue so you will see more and more computer science majors.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;paw.princeton.edu&#x2F;article&#x2F;rise-computer-science-becomes-top-major-expanding-faculty-it-transforms-fields" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;paw.princeton.edu&#x2F;article&#x2F;rise-computer-science-beco...</a><p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;yaledailynews.com&#x2F;blog&#x2F;2014&#x2F;10&#x2F;21&#x2F;cs-department-struggles-for-faculty&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;yaledailynews.com&#x2F;blog&#x2F;2014&#x2F;10&#x2F;21&#x2F;cs-department-strug...</a>
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brod将近 8 年前
I am a self taught web developer, I started a bachelor in IT with a CS major mid 2014 assuming the title would increase job opportunities.<p>Late 2014 I landed a part-time job in web development, that role then moved to full-time and I transitioned out of the Bachelor program as I was learning more valuable work-related skills at my job or in my spare time.<p>Since then I&#x27;ve advertised to employers that I&#x27;m part way through a bachelor, willing to complete if they believe it&#x27;s necessary but otherwise not interested. I&#x27;m now earning just above the average cited in the article and have no intentions of returning to school.<p>I know of a few classmates that are in the same boat, they got a part-time job, transitioned to full-time and quit schooling.<p>In my opinion, the fact I was studying was critical in landing the first job but useless afterwards once I could prove my ability and worth. I doubt people who only completed a degree could compete at technical interviews against people with a self taught background.
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ryanmarsh将近 8 年前
&gt; I think that people who go to college decide on what to major in significantly based on two factors: earning potential and whether a field is seen as high-status.<p>Also laziness, virtue signaling, dilettance, and genuine interest.
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GnarfGnarf将近 8 年前
Engineering, physics, math etc. differ from Comp. Sci. in one major respect (so I hear from colleagues).<p>If you invest a finite amount of hours in the first category, you are pretty much guaranteed you will have something to show for it. Not easy, not simple, but you will get results.<p>Comp. Sci. is a black hole. You can blow ten hours on an obscure logic error. Students know from experience that their tightly budgeted schedule can be wrecked, and they can miss deadlines for reasons that seem out of proportion with the payback. This impacts their other subjects as well.<p>BTW I&#x27;ve a 50-year career in IT. The sum total of my academic qualifications was 1 week of FORTRAN. The rest I learned on the job.
david-cako将近 8 年前
A better question is &quot;why do we care&quot;.<p>Software is about the only career I can think of where there are movements created to inject social status into it so that people get into it who are only interested so long as it comes with social status&#x2F;trendiness.<p>The major also doesn&#x27;t fix the thought process. You either have it or you don&#x27;t.
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runeks将近 8 年前
One possible answer: you can learn computer science without needing a degree at all, and subsequently prove that you&#x27;ve learned it by just writing a program that works.<p>That makes a CS degree inherently less valuable than almost all other degrees out there. Why would employers request a degree saying you know your stuff, when they can just ask you to prove it directly?<p>I was recently st a meetup and met a guy I went to school with. When he was in the process of acquiring his masters degree in <i>physics</i>, he was contacted by Google, who wanted to employ him. He went to an interview (which, apparently, was several interviews by different people all working for Google), and he got the job and moved to Ireland to work for them. Moral of the story: get a degree which offers the greatest value for money, and learn CS in your spare time, for free.
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elihu将近 8 年前
My theory: computer programming is awesome, but getting a good job doing interesting work is really hard. A bachelor&#x27;s degree in computer science won&#x27;t even get your foot in the door in a lot of places. However, there is lots of work doing IT for banks or writing Java for insurance companies or creating web pages for doctor&#x27;s offices. That sort of thing might pay pretty well, but it&#x27;s not the sort of thing that you would have said when someone asked you what you wanted to be when you grow up.<p>Maybe a lot of prospective students perceive (correctly or not) that all the best jobs are already filled by talented people and the competition for those is intense. If you didn&#x27;t get in at the right time when the industry was in a massive growth phase, you&#x27;re more likely to get stuck in a dead-end job.
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GCA10将近 8 年前
Dan nearly solves his own riddle with possible explanation No. 2: &quot;You don’t need a CS degree to be a developer.&quot; He just doesn&#x27;t spend long enough probing this issue.<p>Majoring in computer science is like majoring in English with hopes of becoming a writer. Or majoring in economics with hopes of starting a business. You&#x27;ll get all the theory. You&#x27;ll mingle with all the lifers. But because you try to come into the guild at age 18, there&#x27;s a risk of narrowness&#x2F;tunnel vision.<p>The people majoring in stats, math, physics, etc. may work on more interesting problems during their college years, or develop a more holistic sense of how to come at big new areas of learning. Meanwhile, the opportunities for non-CS majors to pick up programming skills via electives or non-classroom projects are huge.<p>Where Dan sees a problem, I&#x27;m seeing a healthy diversity. The U.S. is able to come up with enough software talent as is, drawing on many different pathways. Why insist that everyone be trained the same way?
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metaphor将近 8 年前
No discriminant between BS and BA flavors of CS. No numbers to capture those who <i>minored</i> in CS. No breakdown of engineering by discipline (in particular, CpE and EE). Interesting data, but it leaves much to be desired.<p>Surprising that there&#x27;s no discussion of CS as a &quot;tool&quot; discipline in the same sense as math and stats are, especially at the bachelor level.<p>When I consider that &quot;Engineering&quot; comprises far more <i>distinct</i> disciplines than &quot;Computer and information sciences&quot;, stats on the former are quite dismal. This becomes even more evident at the master&#x27;s level[1]: for 2014-15, the number of master&#x27;s degrees conferred in <i>all</i> engineering disciplines is ~25% less than the number CS bachelor&#x27;s degrees in the same FY.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;nces.ed.gov&#x2F;programs&#x2F;digest&#x2F;d16&#x2F;tables&#x2F;dt16_323.10.asp" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;nces.ed.gov&#x2F;programs&#x2F;digest&#x2F;d16&#x2F;tables&#x2F;dt16_323.10.a...</a>
Futurebot将近 8 年前
Aside from the many valid theories already listed, I&#x27;d add:<p>perception of dullness<p>Many people find the idea of staring at code all day, regardless of potential for remuneration, boring. Worrying about every little character, futzing around with compilers and debuggers, and reading manuals isn&#x27;t many people&#x27;s idea of fun.<p>Over the years, several non-developers have commented on this to me; &quot;boring,&quot; &quot;dry,&quot; and &quot;dull&quot; were generally the adjectives used. It&#x27;s also perceived by many (rightfully) to be especially prone to the &quot;retrain on your own dime&quot; issue (which has become more common across industries and jobs, but in software dev is particularly acute.) The idea of spending your weekends having to learn a new library or brush up on your fundamentals to interview yet again isn&#x27;t appealing, and it wouldn&#x27;t surprise me if younger people were already very clued into this.<p>&quot;Most desired career among young people: &#x27;YouTuber&#x27;&quot;:<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.tubefilter.com&#x2F;2017&#x2F;05&#x2F;24&#x2F;most-desired-career-young-people-youtube&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.tubefilter.com&#x2F;2017&#x2F;05&#x2F;24&#x2F;most-desired-career-you...</a>
platz将近 8 年前
Primarily, because computer programming is low-status.<p>(also, this is one of the main reasons why females are deterred from joining)
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mathattack将近 8 年前
My 2 cents:<p>1) It&#x27;s hard. Very hard. Unlike most other subjects you can&#x27;t fluff through it. It works or it doesn&#x27;t.<p>2) Every programming class is a ton of work. Even if you&#x27;re great at the subject, it&#x27;s generally your most time consuming course.<p>3) Because of #2, if you don&#x27;t know from Day 1 that this is your major, it takes forever to get through the coursework.<p>4) More than most majors it&#x27;s very hard to take even the intro classes if you haven&#x27;t done it before.<p>Perhaps because of all this, most CS majors I know are people who just couldn&#x27;t imagine majoring in anything else.
issa将近 8 年前
I&#x27;ve always had a personal explanation that I have nothing but anecdotal evidence to back up. The most important skills that make someone a good coder are that they enjoy solving problems, and are willing to work single-mindedly on something until it is done. If you have those skills, there&#x27;s really no reason to go to college to learn anything.<p>In fact, I would bet that the graph in the article corresponds inversely to how easy it has become to learn programming on your own. From manually copying code out of a magazine when I was a kid, to stackoverflow today.<p>I submit that the coders who DO get degrees are people who really enjoyed school (for reasons unrelated to learning), people who didn&#x27;t really know what they wanted to do in life and school was expected of them and&#x2F;or the path of least resistance, and people who are much more into research than the average developer.
mdc2161将近 8 年前
Personal anecdote: I didn&#x27;t major in it because I had no idea I would enjoy it.<p>I was fortunate that my engineering program had two semesters of Java. We spent more time hand drawing logic gates than coding in the intro course and so it wasn&#x27;t until the second (data structures) that I realized it was something I wanted to pursue. It was too late for me to change majors at that point, but not too late to take internships and then a job as a programmer.
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SubiculumCode将近 8 年前
Because college is funner when you don&#x27;t have to take the CS weeder course.
matheweis将近 8 年前
One thing that seems missing from the post is the proliferation of alternative degrees; Computer Information Systems, Information Systems, Software Engineering, Information Technology, etc etc.<p>I would be surprised if the aggregate of all of those degrees didn&#x27;t meet or exceed the trend of the others.
conorliv1将近 8 年前
<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;web.archive.org&#x2F;web&#x2F;20170529183402&#x2F;http:&#x2F;&#x2F;danwang.co&#x2F;why-so-few-computer-science-majors&#x2F;?idk" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;web.archive.org&#x2F;web&#x2F;20170529183402&#x2F;http:&#x2F;&#x2F;danwang.co...</a>
Houshalter将近 8 年前
I have a theory that it&#x27;s because computers are pushing coding stuff away. If you bought a personal computer in the 80s, you basically needed to learn how to program. The computer would come with a basic interpreter built in and easy to find. It would come with a thick dead tree manual on how to program it.<p>Windows, as far as I know, doesn&#x27;t come with any programming language built in. You can do some shell stuff or js in the browser, but you can&#x27;t make an application with that (easily.) And that stuff is hidden away and not encouraged, you have to do research to find out it&#x27;s even there.<p>And mobile OSes are even more locked down. As mobile devices replace desktop computers for the vast majority of people, how are they ever supposed to get into programming?<p>In some sense it is easier than ever to get into programming. Programming languages are better, the internet makes learning resources much more available, there&#x27;s libraries that can do whatever obscure thing you want to do. But all this is hidden away in a secret world that most users will never venture into and don&#x27;t know exists.<p>I know this sounds like it shouldn&#x27;t be a big deal, but I really believe it is. I was so intimidated by learning programming that I put it off for a long time. It seemed like it would be very complicated and difficult. When I did try to learn, I tried with C++. I also early on tried to program stuff with batch scripts and was put off by how limited it was. Eventually I tried another obscure proprietary language that I found through clicking on an ad. All of these were <i>terrible</i> choices for a beginner who wants to learn programming. But I didn&#x27;t know enough to know they were terrible choices.<p>If someone had installed python on my computer and showed me some simple examples I could play with, I would have been so much better off. Eventually I stumbled across a blog post showing how to open up the developer console on a browser just by pressing F12. And some simple example stuff in js. It&#x27;s like an new world just opened up to me. I know some people that had a similar experience with the computercraft mod for minecraft, of all things.
Osiris将近 8 年前
I did a year a computer science before switching majors. Computer science doesn&#x27;t teach students how to be software developers. It&#x27;s an academic study of computing, which is important but not for the majority of development jobs.
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shmolyneaux将近 8 年前
At the University of Waterloo in Canada, the ratio of CS applications to available spaces is over 15:1 [0] according to a Computer Science professor. It could simply be a supply issue.<p>[0]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;plragde&#x2F;status&#x2F;834474871010648064" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;plragde&#x2F;status&#x2F;834474871010648064</a>
jacquesm将近 8 年前
A very large factor is that having a CS degree is not going to make up for the years lost as a developer if you&#x27;re any good. Some companies are pretty heavy on the degree requirement but even the larger ones like Google have been slowly backing away from this.<p>Lots of developers come into computer science through physics, maths and other peripherally related fields and discover they&#x27;re good at computers.<p>Finally, it&#x27;s hard to continue to work on a degree for a pittance while your less capable buddies are raking in 6 figure salaries. At some point the words &#x27;opportunity cost&#x27; will start to appear in your nightmares.
BadassFractal将近 8 年前
Can we already kill the meme that CS or STEM are hostile to women?<p>Correlation does not imply causation. Disparate outcomes do not imply disparate treatment. Nobody in the right mind looks at the 94% of child care services jobs being filled by women and exclaims &quot;Aha! Systemic sexism against men, matriarchal oppression afoot, we must address this social injustice!&quot;, yet all common sense falls apart when it comes to STEM.<p>Good talk on the subject here: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=Gatn5ameRr8" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=Gatn5ameRr8</a>
azakai将近 8 年前
One major factor not mentioned here is that the number of college graduates in a field is not just determined by how many apply to it, nor the author&#x27;s #6 (reactionary faculty that fail large amounts of people). There is also <i>how many people are accepted in the first place</i>.<p>If a university has 100 spots for CS, then even if twice as many people apply for CS in one particular year, there will still be 100 people (but with higher SATs, presumably). There is <i>some</i> flexibility here, but it is limited - those 100 people require a certain number of faculty and grad students to teach them. They need a large-enough building with the proper facilities (you can send students to classrooms in another building sometimes, but it&#x27;s not optimal). The campus can&#x27;t just accept more than the students they planned for without preparation, and those plans are made long in advance.<p>If a university sees a field is popular, it may work to eventually be able to accept more applicants. But it might not decide to do so - popularity among students isn&#x27;t the only factor considered, there are many others, like ease of acquiring funding and grants, likelihood of undergrads becoming graduate students (and whether the university wants more or less of those), etc., all of which require multiyear planning and also have various political factors.<p>tl;dr It&#x27;s worth seeing if we can find data on the number of applicants, and not the number of graduates. It&#x27;s possible the number of applicants has been increasing.
vandyswa将近 8 年前
Agree that all signs are there&#x27;s a glut. Note that we&#x27;re down to somebody at age 30 starting to notice age discrimination. With a career longevity approaching that of an NFL player or MMA fighter, is it really a good choice any more?
dep_b将近 8 年前
Because database connections are hard.
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michaelbrave将近 8 年前
I can share my personal story.<p>I&#x27;ve always been computer savvy and would have loved to have gone into programming, now I&#x27;m trying to prep to go back to school for computer science, so I think it may be relevant.<p>But even being good with computers I was never really a good student in high school, and due to moving around, parents divorcing etc, I had huge gaps in my math education(I still don&#x27;t know my multiplication tables). To the point that I never really thought I was good at math until I got to college.<p>By the time I got to college though I had already put years into becoming a graphic designer, it was my career path and I could graduate faster if I stayed on it. So I did, because I was so close to finishing. I&#x27;ve regretted it ever since.<p>Now I&#x27;m older, wiser, full of regret and better at math, so now I&#x27;d love to go back to school or attend a boot camp, but I&#x27;m legitimately broke, and I have no idea how to pay for it. So I keep trying to learn on my own, from the occasional book or youtube video.<p>TLDR: Math education was lacking and required, I was already on a career path, have regretted it ever since.
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slackingoff2017将近 8 年前
CS requires a decent amount of smarts, requires constant learning, and is boring to most people. This is enough that it will never be an attractive job to most of the population.<p>Why isn&#x27;t it drawing more engineers though? I think CS is seen as the risky choice for an engineering job. There&#x27;s been multiple tech job boom and bust cycles over the years. Why pick CS when most branches of engineering pay almost as much and don&#x27;t have nearly the risk?<p>Another thing I&#x27;ve seen happening firsthand is other professions getting dragged into the CS sphere. I know multiple electrical engineers that spend their days writing code now. Circuit design is becoming largely automated, they just need coders that understand the circuits. Same with marketing, I know a couple guys that majored in marketing who spend their days tinkering with WordPress. Finance too, basically all trading has some level of automation. Probably half the people writing code now never intended to. I like to think this, at least in part, is why so much code appears to have been written by satan.
tsumnia将近 8 年前
It&#x27;s a few problems, but I disagree with some of the author&#x27;s points. One issue it&#x27;s posing the dot-com crash as a similar peak as what we are currently in. Eric Roberts of Stanford wrote an opinion article on what he saw was the ebb and flow of CS [1]. We are in another peak, undoubtedly, but I&#x27;d argue this peak mirrors 1984s popularity.<p>Roberts suggests the issue with the 80s &quot;crash&quot; was an inability to meet demand. As such, universities began placing restrictions on incoming students. If it&#x27;s damn near impossible to enroll in THIS major, I&#x27;ll just go elsewhere. While this next link is primarily for women, you can see every other STEM&#x2F;Law&#x2F;Med domains grew, while CS did not [2]. Likewise, university &quot;retraining&quot; was no standardized, so you may not have gotten the training you needed. Fast forward to today, we say the university system is broken, but the only competitor right now are the recruitment boot camp or the &quot;learn it yourself&quot; model. Regardless of your opinion of any of the three, it is clear they are attempting to be products in &quot;handling the demand&quot;.<p>To counter &quot;anti-nerd culture&quot; and &quot;immigrants&quot; as bullet points - seriously? That&#x27;s stuff we complained about 20 years ago (in the 2000&#x27;s). Nerd culture is mainstream now that we&#x27;ve got billionaires everywhere and outsourcing didn&#x27;t take &quot;all the jerbs&quot;. This points sound more like parroting the concerns of the past.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;cs.stanford.edu&#x2F;people&#x2F;eroberts&#x2F;CSCapacity&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;cs.stanford.edu&#x2F;people&#x2F;eroberts&#x2F;CSCapacity&#x2F;</a> [2] <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.npr.org&#x2F;sections&#x2F;money&#x2F;2014&#x2F;10&#x2F;21&#x2F;357629765&#x2F;when-women-stopped-coding" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.npr.org&#x2F;sections&#x2F;money&#x2F;2014&#x2F;10&#x2F;21&#x2F;357629765&#x2F;when-...</a>
mncolinlee将近 8 年前
I&#x27;ll go with a different angle on this problem. Computers have become indistinguishable from magic for most of the modern population. Even with IDEs like IntelliJ and Visual Studio, the interface of programming has not kept pace with the sexiness of GUIs. As a result, lots of young people take computers for granted and give up quickly when presented with UNIX, git, and the rest of the command line tech stack used by programmers.<p>I&#x27;d say that the decreasing percentage of women in computing has also hurt. When I starting working almost a couple decades ago at Cray, they had significantly more women in programming. Today, most hard sciences graduates are women, but only about 25-30% of CS graduates are women. I don&#x27;t have a great answer why this fall-off is happening, but it seems to be a symptom of cultural issues. Maybe it&#x27;s the influence of VCs and the bro culture bias of finance? I honestly don&#x27;t know.
matthewbauer将近 8 年前
I haven&#x27;t seen a mention of this, but what about the rise of CS-like degrees that people have been getting. Many colleges now offer &quot;software engineering&quot; and related majors. In addition some colleges have recently now CS into the Engineering department. Could that be messing up the data?
siliconc0w将近 8 年前
Schools do a terrible job getting people excited about computer science and even worse software engineering. You start with C and Java and a bunch of arcane syntax and commands to print &#x27;Hello World&#x27; when you could start by making simple games or apps and working backwards to introduce CS concepts mr miyagi style.<p>I started with Basic in elementary and PHP in middle&#x2F;high school and by the time I got to college - young arrogant me was like, &quot;what is this C&#x2F;java noise and why do I need it when I can already do all this cool stuff with php!&quot;. I didn&#x27;t really start appreciating CS and how it applies to software engineering until much later.
taylodl将近 8 年前
<i>&quot;Cultural centrality of Silicon Valley&quot;</i>?! Excuse me, who&#x27;s culture? Most of us in the field don&#x27;t care about Silicon Valley and nearly no one outside the field cares. Sounds like someone needs to get out of their bubble.
euske将近 8 年前
Here&#x27;s my pet theory: when I try to put myself into an average high school student&#x27;s shoes, they&#x27;re already surrounded by all the CS achievements today; namely, video games and smartphones and Facebooks. They&#x27;re exposed to them a bit too much. On the other hand, when I was a high school kid I didn&#x27;t realize how CS is affecting our infrastructure and how many things are still unsolved. I guess this still applies to the current generation too. Combining these two, the field might look rather &quot;finished&quot; or &quot;too competitive&quot; to an average person, which could deter them from applying.
fitchjo将近 8 年前
I know not exactly what the author is discussing in his post, but as someone that did two years in CS before switching (to accountancy), one of the main reasons I switched was the stark contrast in interest in the field between myself and (seemingly) everyone else. In hindsight, I think I would have made a good project manager (instead of a developer), but that path was not really communicated to me in a way that resonated with me. So I just saw a bunch of people with a much greater zeal for coding than I had and decided I should try something different. Maybe in another life...
sidlls将近 8 年前
For the same reason so few people major in <i>any</i> subject. CS isn&#x27;t special. People major in subjects because they&#x27;re interested in them, they think the career path might be good, there is social prestige, and many other reasons. It&#x27;s entirely not surprising that CS has few people selecting it as a major.<p>The decline or slower growth relative to other fields requiring similar kinds of intelligence may be an interesting question--or it may not be, but the posted article doesn&#x27;t, in my view, present any compelling case for either answer.
Overtonwindow将近 8 年前
Because universities continue to place a heavy emphasis on math, specifically calculus, as a gatekeeper. Calculus is useful but I don&#x27;t believe it&#x27;s necessary for a CS degrees.
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killjoywashere将近 8 年前
Did he actually mean to imply more people major in physics? The most recent numbers show physics at an all time high of less than 8,000 bachelor&#x27;s degrees awarded (1) whereas the computer science bachelor&#x27;s degrees, restricted to CS departments in engineering schools (no &quot;information&quot; degrees, no CS departments in math or science colleges), were over 10,000 (2).<p>There was a drop in relative growth because several years before that, the dot-com bubble burst and women fled the field. He says he didn&#x27;t see that in the NCES tables he looked at, but for pete&#x27;s sake, that&#x27;s the first link on Google! (3)<p>(1) <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.aps.org&#x2F;programs&#x2F;education&#x2F;statistics&#x2F;bachelors.cfm" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.aps.org&#x2F;programs&#x2F;education&#x2F;statistics&#x2F;bachelors....</a><p>(2) <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.asee.org&#x2F;papers-and-publications&#x2F;publications&#x2F;college-profiles&#x2F;15EngineeringbytheNumbersPart1.pdf" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.asee.org&#x2F;papers-and-publications&#x2F;publications&#x2F;co...</a><p>(3) <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;nces.ed.gov&#x2F;programs&#x2F;digest&#x2F;d12&#x2F;tables&#x2F;dt12_349.asp" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;nces.ed.gov&#x2F;programs&#x2F;digest&#x2F;d12&#x2F;tables&#x2F;dt12_349.asp</a>
walshemj将近 8 年前
Id disagree that CS or IT in General is &quot;high&quot; status even in the USA.<p>Just because a few 17&#x2F;18 years olds think iphones are &quot;kewel&quot; does not mean that CS &#x2F;IT &#x2F; STEM jobs ae high status.<p>Take the UK no techie&#x2F;stem leader gets the really high honours CMG KCMG, GCMG or as yes minester put it.<p>Bernard: “Of course, in the service, CMG stands for Call Me God. And KCMG for Kindly Call Me God.” Hacker: “What about GCMG?” Bernard: “God Calls Me God.”
zacsme将近 8 年前
I am a little surprised by so many comments talking about the problems with the CS curriculum in college. If people aren&#x27;t even majoring in computer science then I would first think that the issue starts before students come to college.<p>Younger students, K-12, have little exposure to computer science concepts or even programming in general. Sure some schools are great but many public schools in the US are average at best.
SeanDav将近 8 年前
Slightly OT:<p>Anyone notice the irony of this thread being right next to another HN thread titled: <i>&quot;As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating&quot;</i>?
Raphmedia将近 8 年前
Two path were in front of me:<p>A) Enter the market without a major. Work for a low but decent pay for 4 years (with yearly pay raises) and then use the experience to move elsewhere and jump up in salary.<p>B) Spend 4 years without any pay, get out of school and end up with an entry position, work 4 more years and <i>then</i> move to a position that offers a good salary.<p>Needless to say that I went with A) and am not regretting it at all.
wanderr将近 8 年前
&gt; Have people been deeply scarred by the big tech bubble? It bursted in 2001; if CS majors who went through it experienced a long period of difficulty, then it could be the case that they successfully warned off younger people from majoring in it. To prove this, we’d have to see if people who graduated after the bubble did have a hard time<p>As someone who graduated shortly after the bubble burst, I can attest that yes indeed we did have a hard time. I had a year of professional programming experience under my belt (took a year off) and still couldn&#x27;t find anything for a long time. Eventually took a job making 24k at a failing company that was a nightmare to work at, quit that and did tech support for a county library district (they needed someone who could program but didn&#x27;t have the budget to hire a developer) making 35k for a few years. I kept an eye on the broader market during that time but it seemed like everything required 10 years of experience.
gallerdude将近 8 年前
Proud to be a freshman majoring in CS and also proud to be a nerd.
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eximius将近 8 年前
Personally, I just didn&#x27;t want the workload. My favorite semester was when I was taking 4 senior level math courses. Each week, I&#x27;d hunker down and knock out the homework over 2-4 hours for each class. For CompSci, it&#x27;s more like 10-20 hours for each class. The workload in CS is just stupid.
01572将近 8 年前
To an audience of CS majors this will probably sound like trolling but honestly I have never used any software written by a &quot;computer scientist&quot; that I came to value and rely on -- software that I consciously chose to use.<p>Whereas I have found such software on multiple ocassions written by mathematicians or persons in some other field, e.g., physics, etc.<p><i>As a user of software</i>, I do not believe that a computer science degree is of any significance in terms of the ability to write good software.<p>The blog post makes a comparison to Liars Poker. Perhaps it should be noted that the author of Liars Poker majored in art history. It was not necessary for him to have a particular degree in finance to do his &quot;job&quot;. That was the point of book.<p>The question to ask today is whether one needs a degree in CS to write good software.
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sovande将近 8 年前
CS jobs in the west are victims of Globalisation. We simply cannot compete with Asia and Eastern Europe with regards to wages. Hence outsourcing which has been ongoing for decades. We _can_ compete on quality and solutions, but these are hidden properties which might or might not be a problem in the finished product. Business people consider scope and cost first and foremost. In addition, many of the best and highest paid programmers are self-thought. This works, because 99.9% of your career will be bread and butter CRUD apps anyone can do. At the university we studied algorithms and data structures which we will never use or implement. When was the last time you had to do a breadth-first-search on a graph? I really cannot recommend anyone in the west to study CS today.
armchair_hunter将近 8 年前
The chart shows degrees conferred, not how many people are enrolled in a degree. I&#x27;ve been teaching CS at universities since 2010 and I&#x27;ve seen a tremendous growth in CS enrollment. On the flip side, a large number of students fail.<p>This spring, I failed about about a third of my pupils in the intro class and in following data structure course. If this holds true for future semesters -as it has for the past few- only around half actually make it through data structures.<p>CS is hard, and not just because of how exacting the syntax is. It is completely new for many students. Engineering is hard, but a student has expectations they could draw on from math and physics. Same with biology related fields and chem related fields. There are expectations from high school a student can draw upon.
jokoon将近 8 年前
Because there so many different things to do in CS. Knowing how to code will already give you a job, but mastering CS at a certain level is another realm of work, and CS keeps changing and evolving.<p>That&#x27;s like working with cars, you need fewer engineers, and many mechanics and technicians.<p>Coding is like a spoken language. It&#x27;s not so hard to write and fix code and there is already a lot of business involving just that, so my guess is that many students just learn to code and don&#x27;t really do real CS.<p>The computing industry keeps growing and growing, so it means you need more technicians to keep up with growth, not nice degrees. Of course it&#x27;s nice to have PhDs, but good luck training them. Education relies on constrained resources.
hn094062将近 8 年前
I tried pulling a CS-English double major in the 1980s. I loved programming, especially the then-new network programming. But the school I attended used the ACM CS Curriculum which pretty much required a math minor in addition, and the logistics didn&#x27;t work for me (I ran out of money). I would have needed another three semesters just to meet the math requirements.<p>IIRC, I didn&#x27;t particularly enjoy the actual CS classes, instead I&#x27;d spend hours playing with the Sun workstations and tinkering with how commands and code interacted. I could care less about Universal Turing Machines but became the defacto sysadmin for our tiny cluster. None of that counted as course credits of course.
lelandbatey将近 8 年前
In case anyone would like a mirror, I&#x27;ve tried to save the page as best I can here: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;mirror.xwl.me&#x2F;why-so-few-computer-science-majors&#x2F;people_computer_science.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;mirror.xwl.me&#x2F;why-so-few-computer-science-majors&#x2F;peop...</a><p>I seem to have the only working mirror which includes his graph, though the link to the original on his site is: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;i2.wp.com&#x2F;danwang.co&#x2F;wp-content&#x2F;uploads&#x2F;2017&#x2F;05&#x2F;bachelors.png" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;i2.wp.com&#x2F;danwang.co&#x2F;wp-content&#x2F;uploads&#x2F;2017&#x2F;05&#x2F;bache...</a>
paulmooreparks将近 8 年前
I don&#x27;t understand the assumption that a software developer should study computer science to prepare for a career in designing, writing, and delivering computer software.<p>Consider the building trades. Employees in that industry don&#x27;t study &quot;Building Science&quot;. Architects study architecture. Engineers study engineering. Craftsmen in the various building trades study in apprenticeships.<p>Why not admit that computer scientists should study computer science (a valid and useful area of study in its own right) and instead develop a full-fledged degree program for the various skills involved in the software-development industry?
jondubois将近 8 年前
Just like with Maths, I think that to effectively learn programming, you have to believe that you&#x27;re good at it... Unfortunately, it has become harder for people to convince themselves of this because the tooling required to build simple software is much more complex than it used to be.<p>I think that new developers are exposed to more complexity earlier on and so they are more likely to get overwhelmed. It&#x27;s not quite the slow-paced discovery process that it used to be. New developers have more visibility of the road ahead... And it&#x27;s a damn long road.
k__将近 8 年前
Computer science has 2 parts many people consider hard.<p>Math and programming.<p>I was very bad at math, but I already learned programming in high school. This enabled me to do the programming classes without learning too much and put the saved time into math classes.<p>Also universities value students who are good at programming, because they are cheap labour for their projects. Seemed to me that only &lt;50% of the students even wanted to do programming, so they had to think about other things to make the profs happy.<p>&quot;Oh you will work for 3-6 months for me and all I have to do is let you graduate? I&#x27;m sold!&quot;<p>;)
khyryk将近 8 年前
This is just my experience, but I know that many people weren&#x27;t enthused by the fact that computer science classes were absolutely packed with people. Obviously this depends on the school, but if class sizes of 200+ persist even after the first few intro courses, it&#x27;ll whittle down the number of people pursing the major for a variety of reasons, such as poorer quality instruction and the inability of those who need a bit of help to get it as the line outside the TA&#x27;s office is in the dozens.
jvanderbot将近 8 年前
I work with electrical engineers, mechanical engineers, and mathematicians, and computer science students, all who program pretty darn well.<p>The programming is incidental to solving real world problems. If your job is to crank out code which envelops someone else&#x27;s design solution, it doesn&#x27;t really matter what courses you took in undergrad, as an undergrad education of any kind is just a very broad introduction to many things, in the hope that one will &quot;stick&quot; for employment.
sonabinu将近 8 年前
One of the biggest factors that made me withdraw from CS was learning programming in high school. I had a teacher who wasn&#x27;t able to communicate effectively and my own ego being bruised badly when I struggled and struggled to make code work. My second act more than a decade later gave me confidence with better teachers and internships where I saw even seasoned programmers make mistakes and develop multiple iterations before being done. This was an eye opener!
pbui将近 8 年前
From my experience, the main reason for the low number of CS majors is simple: most students don&#x27;t know what Computer Science is. At the university where I teach, half of the CS majors arrived on campus not knowing they would major in Computer Science simply because they didn&#x27;t know what CS was. Only after taking a first year engineering sequence where they sample different aspects of multiple engineering disciplines do many of these students realize CS is an attractive and interesting field to study.<p>Moreover, I have taught a variety of introductory to computing courses to non-CS majors (ie. humanities and business) and what I&#x27;ve found is that a number of students (particularly women) really enjoy the computing classes and say they wish they had majored or minored in CS, but they didn&#x27;t know what it was until they took the class. A few actually do switch into a computing related major afterwards, though not necessarily CS.<p>This may seem counter-intuitive, but while many people know how to use computers and technology, many people don&#x27;t actually understand how it works. Because of this, Computer Science is a mystery to most people and so they don&#x27;t consider it. This is in part why I am excited about the CS4All movement at the K-12 level... simply exposing Computer Science or computational thinking will go a long way in attracting more people to the major.<p>Alternatively, another reason why you don&#x27;t necessarily see a growth in CS majors is because programming is not restricted to Computer Science. Most science and engineering disciplines involve programming now and many curriculums will have programming courses. This is even true in humanities (ie. digital humanities) and business (ie. data analytics) where coding is becoming a desirable skill. If you had a deep interest in say economics and needed to develop some programming skills to simulate models or evaluate data, you can gain these skills and knowledge outside of the CS major and I think that is a good thing.<p>With this in mind, I think a lot of CS departments will need to consider the shift from being a &quot;destination&quot; major to a &quot;service&quot; major where a significant portion of the teaching load is to non-CS majors who want a minimal core, but not all of CS. A flat growth in CS majors does not necessarily mean a lack of computing or programming education in general.<p>Finally, I would say that in my department, we have seen record growth in the past few years (from 50 a few years ago to 150) and that is caused a number of problems. This is not restricted to our university as noted in &quot;Generation CS&quot; from CRA:<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;cra.org&#x2F;data&#x2F;generation-cs&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;cra.org&#x2F;data&#x2F;generation-cs&#x2F;</a><p>So for us, the challenge for us is not growing the number of majors but how to manage the surge in a sustainable manner.
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ensiferum将近 8 年前
Maybe it&#x27;s because compared to the other scientific engineering jobs and curriculums software engineering as a job is like finger painting with feces.;-)
noobermin将近 8 年前
A random meta-comment, this was actually a very good and reasoned piece here. I am have tired of blog posts that wax poetic about issues while relying on anecdata and intuition, while this piece actually looks at data and statistics. I&#x27;ve begun to avoid blogposts like this that discuss controversial topics because they often lack those things, but this didn&#x27;t disappoint. Great job.
t482将近 8 年前
1) Ageism is rampant and sucks. Doctor&#x2F;Lawyer&#x2F;Accountant can work until 70 CS till 45. Also no industry protection like the above.<p>2) If you studied prior to early 90s you were probably stuck on a shitty system. E.g. VAX writing in Turing (a version of Pascal). Horrible editor and very painful with many nights in the basement lab.
gozur88将近 8 年前
I think it&#x27;s a combination of a CS degree being slanted more toward research than preparation for a career as a software developer, and not everybody is cut out for it, temperamentally.<p>Particularly the latter. A lot of people break out in hives at the thought of spending the next forty five years glued to a computer monitor.
agjacobson将近 8 年前
No attempt was made to measure the number of productive dropouts. I.e. authors bias was &quot;count people with a degree.&quot;<p>Hypothesis, gedanken experiment. Award all hackers who are able to support themselves, not necessarily as developers, but having to do with computers, with a CS degree. The curve fills right in.
dboreham将近 8 年前
Hmm. Perhaps because it tagtets a profession that just isn&#x27;t that big, compared to dentists and doctors and accountants and lawyers. Almost every human needs one (each) of those folk. They don&#x27;t generally need an algorithm expert.
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tobyhinloopen将近 8 年前
I was rejected from college because I was too young. They told me to come back a year later.<p>I decided to apply for a programming job to earn some money and get back to college the year later. 8 years later... still didn&#x27;t go back and no intention to.
scandox将近 8 年前
Because most intelligent people don&#x27;t want to fight with configs, syntax and technical arcana. I think we should accept that there is a strange mix of intelligence and obtuseness common to the people that stay in this profession.
fulafel将近 8 年前
What interesting things are going on in the field of CS from a scientific POV?
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mk89将近 8 年前
One more reason is that... compared to many other disciplines (law, medicine, etc) you can find a job &quot;just&quot; by doing exercises and maybe with some open source contributions (or as a freelancer).
foobar1962将近 8 年前
Lookin at the graph of graduates and the dip in CS from 2005 for a few years, I&#x27;d suggest the cause is that the potential cs students skipped doing their degree and went straight into a startup.
avenoir将近 8 年前
Burnout, stress and health issues resulting from stationary way of life would have drove me away from CS 10 years ago had I known what I was getting into. It&#x27;s a love-hate relationship for sure.
keithnz将近 8 年前
I know a number of universities in NZ have non comp sci paths to programming careers through their engineering department. Maybe there&#x27;s some course diversification going on?
smcg将近 8 年前
Lack of good coding&#x2F;CS classes in high school. We&#x27;re still not good at it.<p>Introduction to CS class in high school was what got me hooked in the first place.
msnower将近 8 年前
I don&#x27;t know where this article&#x27;s numbers are coming from, but 1 in 6 Brown undergrads have declared computer science majors this year.
mbell将近 8 年前
I still can&#x27;t figure out why prospective developers go to school for computer science other than lack of better options. It&#x27;s the equivalent of someone whom wants to go into civil engineering getting a degree in physics. It can certainly work, but it doesn&#x27;t really line up with the end game. I guess it&#x27;s mostly just the lack of computer engineering programs. But, most of those seem to be rather off base in terms of preparing developers as well.
matchagaucho将近 8 年前
Learning the science behind how my guitar was made didn&#x27;t make me a better player. But it was useful knowledge.
jorblumesea将近 8 年前
You don&#x27;t need a CS degree to do most run of the mill engineering work. It helps, but definitely not required.
bane将近 8 年前
That&#x27;s a <i>really</i> interesting chart. I&#x27;m &quot;lucky&quot; enough to have gone to school around the time of the first dot-com crash and remember the surge of people into CS around that time -- most looking for the kinds of huge paychecks for little work that were becoming legendary during that time period. It was surprisingly hard to find and connect with peers that were authentically interested in technology, computing and similar subjects.<p>After the dot-com crashes, and 9-11, and lots of the ridiculous paychecks dried up, people left the major in droves. I remember my university in particular went from having to turn away students from the CS major to having major recruiting events for CS in the span of just a couple years, with huge swings in faculty count and facilities.<p>One thing that really came out of all this I think, was a better understanding by the public that CS != programming major, and companies were looking for programmers. It was then perfectly acceptable to take an easier major that focused on programming and get the same job as the CS student who had to endure a much more difficult course load. There was also an effect in industry as people who endured even <i>harder</i> majors found they could simply make more money as programmers and had the mental tools to get up to speed rather quickly.<p>I remember distinctly at my school at least, that students self-sorted majors by perceived difficulty in a way not too dissimilar and not too much out of agreement with the famous xkcd &quot;Fields Arranged By Purity&quot; <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;imgs.xkcd.com&#x2F;comics&#x2F;purity.png" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;imgs.xkcd.com&#x2F;comics&#x2F;purity.png</a><p>IIR the sorting went something like: any Liberal Art &lt; any Soft Science &lt; Information Technology &lt; Information Systems &lt; Biology &lt; Software Engineering &lt; Chemistry &lt; Computer Science &lt; Computer Engineering &lt; Electrical Engineering &lt; Physics &lt; Math<p>My school peers all sort of used major as a badge of rank in social functions even though it was kind of useless and stupid. But I think it also connects to this chart, by all accounts I&#x27;ve heard, there&#x27;s a vast oversubscription of Biology majors and the way the market handles this is to introduce more hoops or very very low pay. In other words, it&#x27;s virtually impossible to get a great job as a biologist without getting a PhD in the field. Chemistry is similar. But the same isn&#x27;t true in CS on up.
devwastaken将近 8 年前
One point I see missing: Colleges are inefficient, have poor quality of life, cost too much, and will not teach you the skills you need.<p>Financially, there is no way I could afford a CS degree today. People like to make the argument that its &#x27;not much&#x27; because you&#x27;ll get paid your entire tuitons worth in one year of work! But, thats not true for everyone. Infact its not true for many. Perhaps if you already live in silicon-valley-esque areas, maybe. But if you don&#x27;t, Microsoft, Google and Amazon aren&#x27;t waiting at the door for you. So what happens when you get a degree, and you don&#x27;t get a &#x27;good&#x27; job out of it right away? You probably end up in retail, putting away your entire paycheck into your tuition when you can&#x27;t defer it anymore. Or, you get a low-paying &#x27;tech&#x27; job that burns you out of the field.<p>But, even if you can afford it, can students go through with it? If any self-respecting developer went back to college now, after owning a house, having a family, y&#x27;know, a life, I think they&#x27;d drop out in the first few months, for what we would then count as perfectly understandable reasons. But for students, both colleges, and society, treat them like vessels without need for things like privacy and ownership.<p>Colleges play the game of forcing students into classes that have nothing to do with their majors. For example, speech classes. Yes, these are nice to have, but I am an adult, and I should be able to choose how I spend my money. In the system today, you are at the complete mercy of what the college tells you to do. Don&#x27;t like it? Too bad. No warranty, no returns, its gone.<p>College tuition and overall living amenities are quite terrible in most locations. The state (public) university here charges the same amount as commercial apartments across the street, for a dorm room you share with another student that is smaller than your kitchen. Infact, only one building even has a kitchen, so you&#x27;re stuck with your meal plans, which are during times when you have classes. Oh, also, if you miss a meal, you don&#x27;t get that money back.<p>If you&#x27;re a male, and want to live near the college, you are at a disadvantage for rent. Girls are more preferred for renting, to the point where these places are girls-only, are cheaper, and are the closest to the campus. Cheaper as in, a few hundred less than a dorm room, and you actually get your own room.<p>Add ontop that this college purposely built in fast-food restaurants, over-spend on decoration and marble counters for their cafeteria (and other places), have teachers with superiority complexes and are generally incompetent - I don&#x27;t think its a bad choice to avoid that altogether. Even if you&#x27;re working at Walmart for years in the cheapest apartments, its still most likely better living conditions.<p>If colleges actually wanted to invest in education, there are a million ways they could be doing that. Thats not to say that all colleges are like this, community colleges can be better at costs and what you need, but students are never told about any of this. They are given a list of options. &quot;Pick one&quot;.
JDiculous将近 8 年前
Here&#x27;s why I switched out of a CS major in 2009 as a sophomore (to math) after being convinced that I&#x27;d major in CS since high school.<p>* Feeling that I can learn programming on my own, and wanting to experiment with something I wouldn&#x27;t otherwise teach myself in college<p>Of course CS != programming, but in my head at the time I saw them as the same. I&#x27;d been teaching myself programming since I was a kid, and I knew I&#x27;d be able to teach myself whatever I needed to know if needed. Thus I felt that it made more sense for me to study something totally foreign to me that I wouldn&#x27;t otherwise learn on my own.<p>* Fear of living out the rest of my life like the movie Office Space, everything being so damn predictable<p>This was before software engineering was considered &quot;cool&quot; or had any prestige. Being a software engineer and sitting at a desk all day in a gray cubicle writing enterprise software or whatever sounded boring as hell. As a socially awkward introvert with no other skills, I felt that majoring in CS would inevitably lead me down that comfortable but unfulfilling route, which frightened me. It wasn&#x27;t just the fear of living a boring life, I just hated the predictability, knowing that I&#x27;d never be more than some boring code monkey with a decent salary (though not finance&#x2F;doctor&#x2F;lawyer money) and boring job (at the time I clearly knew absolutely nothing about entrepreneurship).<p>* Not feeling passionate about programming anymore, and feeling like I&#x27;d never be able to compete with all my classmates who are so damn passionate about it (and not caring anymore)<p>A lot of people in the field seemed to be super passionate about programming, coding all day and all night. I had gotten into it at 12 years old because I wanted to make video games, but as my interest in video games was receding, I realized I wasn&#x27;t really as into it as I thought I was. I felt like there was no way I&#x27;d ever be able to compete with my competition who lived and breathed programming.<p>* CS is boring<p>This was a huge revelation for me. On one hand I loved programming and thought it was awesome that I could do what I considered fun and get school credit for it. But at some point I realized that although I love the programming part, I found the CS I was being taught mind-numbingly boring. I couldn&#x27;t care less about sorting algorithms, binary trees, graph traversal algorithms, and most of the other abstract crap I was supposed to learn. I just didn&#x27;t see why I had to know that stuff.<p>I&#x27;ve realized that I get super interested in this same material when the knowledge is directly necessary for something I&#x27;m trying to build, but otherwise I couldn&#x27;t care less.<p>* CS is hard<p>I thought math was easier, which was honestly part of the reason why I switched to math. Given the obsession companies have on GPA, it was a logical decision.<p>* Fear of becoming like my classmates<p>I was a socially awkward introvert, and I wanted to be social and extroverted. I don&#x27;t know how it is now, but at the time the CS department had the highest concentration of socially awkward introverted weirdos, not to mention the complete lack of women. I remember working in the CS lounge once and facepalming at cringey jokes. I didn&#x27;t want to be around these losers lest I become one of them.<p>* Wanting to work on more important problems<p>I think the industry has a tendency of thinking that software engineering problems are the most important problems facing humanity right now.<p>For some reason I thought majoring in math would give me the toolkit to solve the most important problems in the world. Maybe I was too brainwashed by those movies where some genius in a flash of revelation scribbles some equation on a whiteboard.<p>* Wanting to make a ton of money<p>Software engineering money was good, but I didn&#x27;t like how quickly and steeply the money topped out. I didn&#x27;t want to enter an industry knowing that my compensation would cap out at $200k&#x2F;yr (I don&#x27;t think the tech giants were dishing out $300k&#x2F;yr all-in comp packages to new grads back then, or if they were I wasn&#x27;t aware). I wanted the sky to be the limit, which is why I became interested in finance (again, I wasn&#x27;t aware of entrepreneurship at the time).<p>---<p>Of course going back I probably would&#x27;ve majored in CS because the interview process in the industry skews towards CS knowledge, and math eventually became boring and too abstract and isn&#x27;t as relevant.
ericcumbee将近 8 年前
My reason and why I went IT instead of CS was the amount of Math.
apexkid将近 8 年前
Haven&#x27;t you been to India?
geebee将近 8 年前
Great article. Thanks to Dan Wang for writing it.<p>My main difference in perspective with this article (I&#x27;m hesitant to call it a disagreement, because it&#x27;s more a matter or perspective than any specific conclusion) is that I don&#x27;t think people need to be consciously aware of market or societal forces and pressures to be powerfully influenced by them.<p>I think anyone who wonders why more people don&#x27;t major in CS (as well as other fields claiming a &quot;shortage&quot;) should read the chapter on pay and professions from Adam Smith&#x27;s &quot;Wealth of Nations&quot;. I don&#x27;t think they need to read it and accept it without critical thought, just be aware of the perspective - that there are a huge number of inter-dependent factors, other than pay, that powerfully influence the desirability of a profession.<p>Here&#x27;s a link:<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;geolib.com&#x2F;smith.adam&#x2F;won1-10.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;geolib.com&#x2F;smith.adam&#x2F;won1-10.html</a><p>This is all pretty intuitive - if you want people to take on tedious, odious, or dishonorable work, you may have to pay them well.<p>I actually think CS, and programming, may be a more unpleasant profession than people recognize. Huge open offices, back visibility, SCRUM meetings that deny long term thinking and autonomy, constant technology churn, age-related employment issues, and, yes, specialized visas that mean employers can rely on captive employees who can&#x27;t leave the field and have limited rights to leave their employer, all these things do mean that CS may be a much less desirable field for people with academic talent. Also - while wages are high, this may be the Silicon Valley effect. A job that pays an average of 120k, but plays this consistently in smaller, less expensive cities, may be more desirable than a job that pays 150k on average, but where 95% of the employment is concentrated in a place where the median price of a house is $1.2+ million.<p>Just for a dose or reality, a registered nurse in San Francisco earns more, at the median, than an application developer. That&#x27;s a-ok by me! Nursing is a tough job. But if someone prefers to do good as a nurse and make more money than siting around fixing bugs in the latest javascript framework, come on, that&#x27;s perfectly rational!<p>I really don&#x27;t think young people need to have analyzed this to be influenced by it. There&#x27;s a reason we call it the &quot;invisible hand&quot;.<p>In short, if it is rational to avoid this field, that&#x27;s probably enough to conclude that these are factors in deterring workers from it. I don&#x27;t think you need to prove hyper-awareness specifically of these issues.<p>Keep in mind, people who are capable of learning to code and work in software development teams do have a high level of capacity for work and study. They have a lot of options. I&#x27;m not sure that software development, as a field, is all that competitive with the other things they can do.<p>In short, people may be behaving very rationally by avoiding this field.
_Codemonkeyism将近 8 年前
Image.
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skybrian将近 8 年前
Because: Error establishing a database connection.<p>(Seems to be back now.)
kutkloon7将近 8 年前
I majored in computer science, and I don&#x27;t feel like I&#x27;ve learned anything. Every time there was an opportunity to learn something cool (mathematical theory behind cryptography, assembly language, details of a processor, the cache, or a communication protocol) or useful, it was glanced over as &#x27;technical details&#x27;. Instead, I was introduced to many, many small topics (programming, graphics, databases, algorithms, user experience, functional programming, logic, web programming), but we didn&#x27;t go in the depth. To be honest, I forgot most of it. It did easily land me a job as a consultant, though.<p>I honestly wish I&#x27;d picked a more interesting major, like electrical engineering or physics. I feel like I could learn the things I&#x27;ve learned in a few months (which may or may not be true).<p>Computer science is just not very hard, while physics, math, and engineering is. I think the guys from other fields can be more successful programmers, just because they are smarter (more used to solving hard problems).<p>In computer science, the only course that required a little bit of creativity was algorithms. It was stuff mathematicians are practically trained to do (be it not in exactly the same setting).
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djsumdog将近 8 年前
I&#x27;m glad I got a full CS degree, but I knew several people who dropped to the business versions (often called MIS or CIS depending on your school) and learned a lot of the basics of programming and web front ends without more the hard core algorithms and foundation work.<p>As I read the into, I think the author touched on a lot of the reasons I was starting to think of. A lot of people do boot camps (which are overpriced for-profit garbage btw), community college programming classes, etc. I know people out of this programs that understand bigO notation and do all kinds of fun scaling work and I know CS majors who can only program Java&#x2F;C# and don&#x27;t know what a SATA connector is. You get out of your field what you put into it.<p>As far as women in our field, I hesitate here. I don&#x27;t really think it&#x27;s the hostile landscape. I&#x27;ve worked with several female engineers. Some are amazing and good designers. Some are terrible. The ratio to good&#x2F;bad males, in my limited non-scientific empirical view, seems about even. I also haven&#x27;t really witnesses women being treated badly either and I&#x27;ve worked in five cities and several jobs over the past two decades. What I have seen are entire groups of people being treated like crap in hostel work environments, not limited or segregated by race or gender.<p>I feel there are also not that many people in our field (both men and women) because it&#x27;s...pretty horrible. Seriously, we sit in front of screen for 8 hours a day watching the world tick by, often doing our best to design the best we can to be bolted onto old decaying crap that should have been retired a decade ago. Or we build shiny new products that benefit the few and have tons of crazy requirements that come out of no where that nobody wants. There aren&#x27;t as many women in engineering because in general women chose jobs that are more rewarding even if they&#x27;re lower paying. I think we could all take a page from that philosophy, if we didn&#x27;t live in a world where we were afraid of ending up on the bottom or without enough for essentials.<p>I can honestly only two about two years at a time in IT these days. I&#x27;ve embraced the Sabbatical (<a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;penguindreams.org&#x2F;videos&#x2F;taking-a-sabbatical&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;penguindreams.org&#x2F;videos&#x2F;taking-a-sabbatical&#x2F;</a>) even though I realize it&#x27;s probably not sustainable long term, and also realizing my earnings in software give me this unique advantage, that most people simply don&#x27;t have.
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akhilcacharya将近 8 年前
&gt;Why is the marginal student not drawn to study CS at a top school, and why would a top student not want to study CS at a non-top school, especially if he or she can find boot camps and MOOCs to bolster learning?<p>Because I&#x27;m not smart enough to get into MIT&#x2F;Stanford&#x2F;UCB&#x2F;CMU?
atomical将近 8 年前
I didn&#x27;t want to take four years of calc and physics.
djsumdog将近 8 年前
Anyone have an archived version? Looks like it&#x27;s hosted on wordpress and the database got hammered.
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erikbye将近 8 年前
Perhaps &quot;very smart&quot; was an incorrect assessment on your part.
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