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Diversity in Technology and Open Source

41 点作者 Spiritus将近 8 年前

13 条评论

jasode将近 8 年前
<i>&gt;we need more [...] people that are good in de-escalating arguments in bug trackers and mailing lists, people that take care of documentations, people that make software work in new cultural contexts (localization, globalization, internationalization, etc.), people that care about user experience etc</i><p>If you&#x27;re a male, you have to be careful writing out suggestions like that because to females such as my mother with a career in electronics, <i>it is patronizing</i>. Women can also be a &quot;strong engineers&quot; and they shouldn&#x27;t be relegated to <i>&quot;open source housekeeping duties&quot;</i> as a dangling carrot to attract them.<p>Yes, Armin Ronacher means no harm but I think men often fall into the trap of thinking they are championing women&#x27;s causes when they are actually insulting their intelligence.
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alexfi将近 8 年前
I think IT and especially open source is one area, where your gender, background, sexual orientation doesn&#x27;t matter. The most open source projects I&#x27;m using or working on, are made by people I don&#x27;t know how they look. The only thing that matters is the ability of writing good code.<p>The author is in that point right, that there are more male programmers than female. But to solve this problem you have to start way earlier, with getting the interest to tech things of a child (regardless of gender) in school or even earlier.
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brighteyes将近 8 年前
To really understand the issue, you need to look at all the facts. And yes, while women are underrepresented in open source, LGBT people are overrepresented - almost double their percentage in the general population in fact (7% vs 4%).<p>So any theory of &quot;open source drives away women&quot; has to explain why it has the opposite effect on LGBT people. There isn&#x27;t going to be a simple answer there and maybe we aren&#x27;t even asking the right questions yet.
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a_imho将近 8 年前
I don&#x27;t agree with the implied correlation of user friendliness and diversity, let alone the supposed causation. The Gimp example seems a forced attempt to support Armin&#x27;s agenda.<p>Disclaimer: I don&#x27;t know how diverse the Gimp developer base is as opposed to a user friendly competing product.
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zmoreira将近 8 年前
If “Diversity in Open Source Is Even Worse Than in Tech Overall” and there are less barriers to participation in Open Source it could be that this &quot;lack of diversity&quot; accurately reflects the interests and capabilities of the different groups?<p>It could be that the different kinds of humans are not identical and given an even playing field different outcomes will result.<p>It could also be that the lack of diversity in tech is the mirror image of the lack of diversity in other fields such as healthcare and education.<p>If that is so it could be that the &quot;lack of diversity&quot; is the result of diversity in human inclinations and it would only be stamped out through increasingly authoritarian measures.
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metaphorm将近 8 年前
There&#x27;s a bit of an elephant-in-the-room here which I wish Armin had discussed more.<p>I agree with Armin on what he did mention, which is that there is great need in OSS projects for people with greater focus on skills besides just hard boiled coding.<p>I wish he had discussed the issue that seems to be creeping up in many places now (recent example: cancellation of Electron Conference) which is that there are many activist groups who are seeking to implement diversity quotas. That is a really scary idea and a step in the wrong direction.
microcolonel将近 8 年前
You know, I never stopped to figure out the ethnicities and genders of co-contributors on a project, it truly is an unnatural thought. I&#x27;m concerned that the people who are most concerned about diversity in &quot;open source&quot;, do so because they consider themselves a threat to it.<p>Maybe white people like diving computers or lake sonar, maybe women care more about topography or teledildonics; but if nobody cares to even know the accidental characteristics of the people who send the patches, then is it an issue when the numbers bear that out?
b6将近 8 年前
Nobody opposes diversity of experience, perspective, skill, etc. It really is helpful to have people with different use cases testing and developing the software.<p>But &quot;diversity&quot; is being used to mean diversity of gender, ethnicity, etc., as if it matters, as if it is a reliable proxy for those other things like experience and perspective and skill, when it&#x27;s not.<p>When I was starting to program and talk to people on the net, nobody cared about my age or ethnicity or gender. I was just a name and an area code and some skills. The compiler certainly did not care about my ethnicity or gender. It was perfectly fair to me.<p>I will not go out of my way to try to rope people into my projects because they have different color skin. If people show up to help, I welcome them. I don&#x27;t particularly care about their genetic code. I don&#x27;t have any preconception about what the graphs of the ethnicities and genders of contributors would look like. Who cares? We are not our bodies and I won&#x27;t help build a future where body attributes are considered an important part of identity.
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sparkling将近 8 年前
&gt; I wont accept your pull request because you are [black&#x2F;female&#x2F;gay&#x2F;asian&#x2F;latino&#x2F;transgender&#x2F;whatever minority of the week]<p>Said no one ever
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Klockan将近 8 年前
Isn&#x27;t it strange that diversity gets worse when you add anonymity?
jankotek将近 8 年前
There is a old saying: <i>&quot;On the Internet, nobody knows you&#x27;re a dog.&quot;</i><p>It can not get more diverse and inclusive than that.
aeorgnoieang将近 8 年前
All of the members of the [Pocoo Team][1] seem to be white men.<p>[1]: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.pocoo.org&#x2F;team&#x2F;#team" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.pocoo.org&#x2F;team&#x2F;#team</a><p>Is that a reflection of your hypocrisy? Or the difficulty of recruiting people that are not white men? I&#x27;m guessing it&#x27;s mostly the latter.<p>You wrote:<p>&gt; When you start an Open Source project today, in particular one which is further disconnected from frontend technologies there is a very high chance the organic community development will be everything but diverse.<p>and given the following, from [this comment][2] in this thread, which seems probably true:<p>&gt; Major open source projects are disproportionately managed and staffed by people with full-time jobs at major software companies, and the process of obtaining and thriving in one of those jobs is not intrinsically color and gender blind, so this argument isn&#x27;t persuasive.<p>[2]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=14488000" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=14488000</a><p>we should be tempering our judgements of open source projects, e.g. that they&#x27;re not welcoming to people that are not white men.<p>I&#x27;m confused as to what principle or principles you think should actually be adopted. Should all open source projects reflect the &#x27;diversity&#x27; of the entire world?<p>Consider the following, from [this comment][3] also from this thread:<p>&gt; LGBT people are overrepresented - almost double their percentage in the general population in fact (7% vs 4%).<p>[3]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=14488689" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=14488689</a><p><i>Assuming</i> that the above is true, is this a cause for concern? Would you similarly be concerned if it were true that, say, Asian people, or even just Asian men, were over-represented in technology or open source software projects? Is that not a cause for concern for you too?<p>It sure seems like the only cause for concern is that there are too many white men. Would anyone ever criticize an open source project for not having &#x27;enough white people&#x27; or &#x27;enough men&#x27;, let alone &#x27;enough white men&#x27;?<p>More from your post:<p>&gt; What&#x27;s worse is the longer you wait to try to get people involved in the project that would naturally not try to join the harder it will be. When your team is 4 men, the first woman which joins will make a significant impact. When your team is already 20 men you need to get a lot more women on board to have the same impact.<p>My problem with this is that you&#x27;re pretty clearly, tho implicitly, devaluing contributors that don&#x27;t help your project meet your diversity quotas. Your team is six white men. Have you considered replacing your existing members with women or people of color? When someone contacts you, your team members, or other contributors to your projects, do you ask them to identify their race, ethnicity, sex, or gender so you can discourage white men from contributing? If not, don&#x27;t you realize that every white man that joins your team or contributes to your projects is making your diversity problem worse? You&#x27;re also implicitly bashing your team members and contributors for being the wrong kind of people because you&#x27;re telling them that their homogeneity is:<p>1. &quot;not healthy for a project or a community to lack diversity&quot; 2. Contributing to an &quot;echo chamber&quot; 3. Increasing the difficulty of future diversity 4. Hurting the project because they are relatively bad at &quot;de-escalating arguments in bug trackers and mailing lists&quot; 5. Hurting the project because they are relatively bad at &quot;[taking] care of documentation&quot; 6. They are not &quot;people that make software work in new cultural contexts (localization, globalization, internationalization, etc.)&quot;, i.e. they are unable to understand or work with other &quot;cultural contexts&quot;. 7. They are not &quot;people that care about user experience&quot;<p>---<p>I&#x27;m sure you agree with me in thinking that everyone that wants to &#x27;participate in technology&#x27; or contribute to an open source project should be able to do so. And moreover, people that <i>don&#x27;t even realize that they would enjoy contributing to an open source project</i> should be given that knowledge – all else being equal of course.<p>But that&#x27;s the key <i>constraint</i> on how much marginal effort should be expended to recruit people that aren&#x27;t already participating and contributing – all else is <i>not</i> equal. Everything is costly to some degree.<p>De-escalating arguments in bug-trackers or mailing lists – let alone even <i>participating</i> in arguments – requires time and energy! And there&#x27;s only a finite supply of either! And opportunity costs are real and pervasive – arguing with people <i>can</i> be satisfying, but it can also be incredibly aggravating!<p>Writing documentation – and editing it, or maintaining it, or re-organizing it, etc. – requires time and energy! Someone has to do it and for most open source projects that means someone has to <i>voluntarily</i> do it. And this neglects the fact that &#x27;localizing&#x27; or &#x27;globalizing&#x27; that same documentation isn&#x27;t even possible unless one knows at least two languages pretty well!<p>If you&#x27;re going to &quot;artificially bring balance&quot; to your open source team, your open source project&#x27;s contributors, or your conference, you&#x27;re <i>restricting</i> the supply of possible people and thus <i>raising</i> the relative cost of whatever it is that you want done, whether it be writing documentation or providing user support in your issue tracker or mailing list.<p>I haven&#x27;t personally observed any significant <i>and unfair</i> obstacles preventing people that are not white men from participating in open source projects, or &#x27;technology&#x27; generally. But I&#x27;m <i>sure</i> they exist. Let&#x27;s get rid of them. But first, let&#x27;s actually identify them, and let&#x27;s be careful with implying that every group of people that doesn&#x27;t near-perfectly reflect the demographics of its wider community or country or whatever is guilty of overt racism, sexism, or other discrimination.
mafribe将近 8 年前
<p><pre><code> everyone agrees that such overt exclusion, if it exists, is racist or sexist. </code></pre> I certainly do not agree with this. Your opponents simply deny that the compiler has the ability to exclude or be sexist or racist. The argument that the compiler or test suite discriminates on anything but merit is for you to make. Good luck.<p><pre><code> you can&#x27;t shut down the argument by claiming that it&#x27;s somehow racist&#x2F; sexist against white men. </code></pre> On the contrary, this is an extremely good counterargument, and the reason you try to re-frame it away is precisely because you know it is a good counterargument. Dare we speak of &quot;ptacekian fragility&quot;? There is another re-frame that you maliciously use: you talk about white men, when you should really be talking about white and asian men. The spectacular success of asian men (and -- to a lesser degree -- asian women) in SV (and any profession that needs high degrees of education) absolutely, brutally burns to the crips any claim that there is racism&#x2F;sexism at play. And you know it -- hence the ongoing reframes.
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