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I'm a creep. I'm sorry

321 点作者 duellsy将近 8 年前

51 条评论

alexandercrohde将近 8 年前
A lot of people here seem to not understand the power imbalance point, so I&#x27;d like to explain it.<p>Imagine you&#x27;re in these positions: --Being arrested, and an officer makes a romantic advance --On trial, and the judge makes a romantic advance --In therapy, and the therapist makes a romantic advance --At the doctor, and the doctor makes a romantic advance --At the bank, and the banker makes a romantic advance --In a restaurant, and the waiter makes a romantic advance --At work, and the cleaning staff makes a romantic advance --In class, and the teacher makes a romantic advance --Buying a car, and the car dealer makes a romantic advance<p>Obviously each of these situations is a little different, and the appropriateness of flirting in each situation is a little bit different (for example a therapist will lose the ability to practice for life if they date a client, e.g. Dr. Phil).<p>When you consider why some of these are obviously wrong (cop, judge, therapist, teacher) it&#x27;s because the individual in question has a responsibility to make a neutral judgement call that will have a meaningful impact on your life.<p>Now I&#x27;m not saying I have the answer to this, but I think we need to begin the discussion by establishing some principles.
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daenz将近 8 年前
Is it just me, or is committing public seppuku like this really necessary? If what he did was illegal, he should face prosecution. If he&#x27;s compelled to apologize and admit his guilt, he should reach out to the people he actually wronged. This kind of public self-flagellation (&quot;I&#x27;m such a creep. Please forgive me, world.&quot;) feels really over the top, phony, and symbolic.
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siliconc0w将近 8 年前
To make this a bit more abstract:<p>Bob is a big wheel over at SomeCompany. Bob is outside work drinking with some friends, say Eve, and runs into Alice. Alice joins them and while she doesn&#x27;t currently work for SomeCompany she indicates to Bob she would like to join. Bob, like most people, hangs out with a lot of people with similar interests&#x2F;skill-sets&#x2F;abilities. As the night wanes, Bob flirts with Alice. Alice declines Bob&#x27;s advances. SomeCompany ends up not hiring Alice.<p>So where are we on the morality meter here? First, it is clearly inappropriate to flirt with people you may want to hire. Obviously. But the empathetic side of the argument is that just because you&#x27;re a big wheel at the cracker factory that shouldn&#x27;t mean you can never go &#x27;off the clock&#x27; and do things humans tend to do like try to get laid. Work and life have become so blended for so many people it&#x27;s unrealistic to expect this not to happen. We created this culture of &#x27;living to work&#x27; and this is a consequence. We should expect these sorts of messy situations to occur and build sane rules&#x2F;expectations around them. But go ahead and throw stones&#x2F;downvote&#x2F; act outraged. That&#x27;ll solve the problem.
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cylinder将近 8 年前
I&#x27;ve got to wonder, why do coworkers go out for drinks if it&#x27;s not a social setting? I don&#x27;t understand the logic of mixing alcohol with colleagues if you&#x27;re still under the &quot;workplace&quot; umbrella.
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cyberferret将近 8 年前
I don&#x27;t know the guy aside from what I have read in the press (both good and bad), but I&#x27;d like to think he wrote this with genuine sincerity.<p>Hopefully this is the start of a groundswell trend of traits such as &#x27;accountability&#x27; and &#x27;taking responsibility for your actions&#x27; becoming fashionable and an expected part of human behaviour again.
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hendzen将近 8 年前
Caveat, McClure&#x27;s behavior was bad. But seeing recent public floggings for misbehavior I now wonder if people are feeling a bit hypersensitive&#x2F;cautious about any workplace conduct that could potentially be perceived as harassment.<p>Case in point. You work at a technology company. You are attracted to another coworker, who is NOT your subordinate. Is there some manner in which it is acceptable to express your interest? Or is this just not OK at all?
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coss将近 8 年前
Reading these comments makes me really depressed for the future of our society. Let me get this straight -<p>1. Don&#x27;t go out with co-workers. 2. Don&#x27;t make friends with co-workers. 3. Def. never drink with co-workers.<p>Have we really become this sensitive? There&#x27;s a voice in me that&#x27;s screaming &#x27;fuck off&#x27; to this kind of attitude. I can&#x27;t quite articulate why it infuriates me so much.
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welcome_dragon将近 8 年前
I for one am happy to see a true apology here, not an &quot;I&#x27;m sorry if I offended you&quot; statement that so many people make the days.<p>This has all the points of a proper apology: an understanding of the wrong committed, acknowledging that it was his fault, and demonstrating commitment to change. It also appears to be sincere
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SeeDave将近 8 年前
Not sure what to say, or how to make things whole for his victims as there is a very wide spectrum of consequence between &#x27;boys will be boys&#x27; and capital punishment.<p>I really encourage him to think in terms of &#x27;next steps&#x27; to make amends when it comes to those affected by his behavior. Anything less, in my completely and totally unqualified opinion, is but self-serving lip service.
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dbg31415将近 8 年前
A HUGE percentage of couples meet through work.<p>It&#x27;s not inherently wrong, or something inherently taboo. (We&#x27;ve all been told not to stick our pens in the company ink, but... time and time again we also see examples of happily married couples who met on the job... Bill Gates&#x27; wife worked for Microsoft, The Obamas met while they were working together, Ryan Reynolds &amp; Blake Lively met on the set of Green Lantern...)<p>So it feels like the message here is, &quot;It&#x27;s fine when it works, and it&#x27;s totally not fine when it doesn&#x27;t work.&quot; The only way to know if it&#x27;s fine is to ask. It&#x27;s not really something you can make universal rules for. To each their own, right? (I would say a wedding ring means someone is off limits, but affairs happen all the time too.)<p>Point being, it has to be something more than, &quot;It&#x27;s OK to hit on someone if they are attracted to you.&quot; I think hitting on someone is inherently a compliment. But if they say no, and you try again, and they still say no, well probably don&#x27;t try a third time. This guy is apologizing for being called a creep after hitting on someone once... man, that&#x27;s rough. You don&#x27;t know until you try.<p>There needs to be a little more flex here, it can&#x27;t just come down to, &quot;Anyone who we don&#x27;t feel attraction to should be fired if they pay us a poorly worded compliment or tell a bad joke.&quot; Stalkers, sure... people who try and leverage their position in the company to get laid (with the implication), yeah... but just some guy who tries to clumsily flirt with a girl and can&#x27;t play it smooth because he&#x27;s fundamentally not a player and actually likes her... come on, cut that guy some slack.
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camgunz将近 8 年前
I think it&#x27;s clear from these comments that all companies, everywhere, are doing a terrible job with their sexual harassment training. When otherwise highly intelligent and educated people haven&#x27;t even heard of power imbalance or hostile work environments, or &quot;intent is irrelevant&quot;, this is a huge problem.<p>If you&#x27;re running a company, please make it a priority to start real, meaningful sexual harassment training right now. Good god.
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throwcatch将近 8 年前
You have to assume all of these apologies are written with the help of PR firms and crisis management teams. Sacca’s was the most obviously phony, which makes sense since he’s trying to protect his new TV career.<p>There are way more of these creeps than these stories will let out. It really depends how well connected you are to the media machine in SV. Binary Capital and 500 are both too small and irrelevant to cause problems for the reporters breaking these stories, but what about Peter Thiel’s friends? You can’t even talk about them without worrying about going bankrupt.<p>There are a lot of women out there who are watching these stories and saying absolutely nothing, because they know the odds are still stacked against them. Exposing a couple mid tier guys doesn’t mean anything.
Skylled将近 8 年前
I don&#x27;t like this world where every social interaction could have drastic, long-lasting effects on my reputation. Where every employee&#x27;s word&#x2F;deed is taken as a company action, unless otherwise specified.<p>I&#x27;m human, and I&#x27;m fallible. I will make, or have already made, a bad decision that someone else will be able to hold over me for the rest of my life.<p>People need to be allowed to make mistakes so they can learn from them. Not be crucified to make an example for others.<p>Good for him for apologizing. I don&#x27;t envy his position. It&#x27;s lonely at the top.
luord将近 8 年前
I&#x27;m not going to congratulate this guy or call him brave or anything, and I&#x27;m just going to mention that I consider this proof that speaking up against unfair treatment (in this case, harassment) <i>can</i> have an impact.<p>The only thing I&#x27;m going to commend about this post is that it&#x27;s nice that he&#x27;s trying not to bring the company (and thus, his colleagues) down with him.
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Dzugaru将近 8 年前
I can&#x27;t help it but I can&#x27;t find any reason to consider this as having &gt; 0 information. You are absolutely forced and 100% expected to do this in a situation now, right?<p>I, honestly, find this very disturbing (black mirror way), regardless of my opinion on the matter at hand.
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stevebmark将近 8 年前
Refreshing to see an actual apology instead of a digging in of heels common to tech industry shittiness (see: Notch). The apology may(?) be cathartic for the people he&#x27;s harassed but the damage is done. He&#x27;s only apologizing as a forced response from the major public backlash. The only silver lining I see is others will be (and are) scared about this kind of behavior which used to go unchecked.
rhizome将近 8 年前
One thing I&#x27;d like to see from these people on the inside is some sense of where this comes from. Where did they learn it? What does it say about others in the VC club who saw something and said nothing? This stuff has obviously been condoned for years and years and years, he should help dismantle it more than falling on his own sword. Reveal the secret handshake(s).
neurotech1将近 8 年前
His response reminded me of the famous &#x27;Asoh Defense&#x27;, when Captain Kohei Asoh accidently put a perfectly good plane into the water on approach to SFO [0]<p>&gt; Asoh, when asked by the NTSB about the landing, reportedly replied, &quot;As you Americans say, I f__d up.&quot; In his 1988 book The Abilene Paradox, author Jerry B. Harvey termed this frank acceptance of blame the &quot;Asoh defense&quot;, and the story and term have been taken up by a number of other management theorists.<p>I believe Dave McClure taking responsibility for his mistakes in such a strong way is a step towards repairing the damage caused by his inappropriate behavior.<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Japan_Airlines_Flight_2#The_.22Asoh_defense.22" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Japan_Airlines_Flight_2#The_.2...</a>
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foolfoolz将近 8 年前
when this happens it goes beyond just being a creep at work. the people you do this may fear retaliation for reporting the incident, work with you after (he still works at the company), and face down skeptics who can belittle what happened<p>this post shows some thoughtfulness, but my reaction is &quot;stay far away from this person and this company&quot;
salmonellaeater将近 8 年前
Assuming McClure follows through by 1) refraining from harassing any more people and 2) making things right with the particular people he hurt, it doesn&#x27;t matter whether he is sincere or not. How would you even tell what&#x27;s in his mind? What matters is that he has changed the common knowledge of what behavior he publicly endorses (or in this case, condemns) [1]. His apology is proof of sorts that he will follow a better standard of behavior, because now he stands to be treated as a liar and hypocrite on top of the normal punishment if he backslides.<p>From our side, if we as a community continue to denigrate him even after he has done the most he possibly could to change the moral consensus on this topic for the better, we&#x27;re going to discourage others from apologizing and drive them to deny. Why bear the cost of admitting you&#x27;re wrong if there&#x27;s no benefit?<p>[1] I highly recommend Rational Ritual: Culture, Coordination, and Common Knowledge by Michael Suk-Young Chwe for a game-theoretic exploration of topics like this. <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;press.princeton.edu&#x2F;titles&#x2F;9998.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;press.princeton.edu&#x2F;titles&#x2F;9998.html</a>
bluetwo将近 8 年前
As someone once said, &quot;You can offer an excuse or you can offer an apology, but you can&#x27;t offer both.&quot;<p>I&#x27;m not sure which this is. It sounds to me like both.
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rmason将近 8 年前
I was pretty critical on here just yesterday about Dave McClure. I&#x27;d never met him in person but felt like his behavior was unlike the guy I felt I knew from his writings and interviews.<p>This is heads above the apologies from Justin Caldbeck and Sacca though I wished he&#x27;d written it months ago, back when the changes at 500 Startups were first made. It&#x27;s a good start, but only the beginning.
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mrmcd将近 8 年前
I wish there was a way to give imaginary internet upvote points to all the people who didn&#x27;t act like harassing shitheads, but I guess we&#x27;re stuck with giving them to this asshole, who whines about &quot;this isn&#x27;t who I am!&quot; and &quot;I invested in so many of my LGBTQ friends!&quot; months or years afterwords when finally called out on it.
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ge96将近 8 年前
This is how I feel anytime I want to ask a girl out, that I&#x27;ll come across as a creep haha. I should probably stop watching them through their window.<p>Edit: this reminds me of the Dove guy from American Apparel happened to listen to some podcasts (too many) about him.<p>I just wish I believed in myself more and wasn&#x27;t so hesitant&#x2F;worry about &quot;getting in trouble&quot;
masondixon将近 8 年前
&gt; During the recruiting process, Mr. McClure, a founder of 500 Startups and an investor, sent her a Facebook message that read in part, “I was getting confused figuring out whether to hire you or hit on you.”<p>Its interesting to think about what this would be like if the roles were reversed. The VC was female, and the applicant was male.<p>As a male in this situation I see this as completely neutral, even positive. If the founder likes me, then I have more chance of getting a highly sought after role which I might not have otherwise - as no company really hires solely on merit anyway. As a male, if there is a female HR contact, I would always welcome them flirting with me, as it only increases my chances of getting the job by giving me points when there are subjective evaluations required.<p>If I was single and interested in this female VC its a clear opening for a date. If I am attracted to her, I could have a date. If not, I could just laugh it off and say I&#x27;m already seeing someone. Life moves on.<p>Now if I push back an advance, they might get petty and decide to not hire me as some kind of revenge, or otherwise, they may be more likely to hire me because they want me around.<p>---<p>Now, obviously this is not a 1-1 analogous situation because of the world as it is today. Some notable differences...<p>- There are more male VCs than females. - There are probably less female applicants for such positions. - Males are the physically stronger sex. - Males are more likely to make advances than females (is this true?).<p>So I am interested in which of these above variables must be inverted to change my reaction. I need to think more on it.<p>But an interesting aspect is that, perhaps males think like this, and therefore think its okay. I am guessing that its the other gender imbalance variables that make this not applicable vise-versa, which is harder for males to play out in their mind.
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josh_carterPDX将近 8 年前
This is a very Dave-like apology and I hope it leads to meaningful change for him as it&#x27;s clearly creating a bigger conversation. I believe in second chances and I really hope we see Dave back into the trenches. He&#x27;s done a lot for the industry and it&#x27;ll be interesting to see if he&#x27;s welcomed back.
FT_intern将近 8 年前
I&#x27;m not sure if creep is the best word to use here. Creep is a gendered term like slut or bitch.
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r3vo将近 8 年前
Can someone explain to me what he did exactly?<p>I know he messaged a woman saying &quot;I don&#x27;t know if I should hire you or hit on you.&quot;<p>What kind of environment were they in? Were they hanging out socially or professionally? Was she formally in a recruitment process with his firm?<p>It seems to me that they were in a socially ambiguous situation and that McClure interpreted the environment wrong and did some innocuous flirting. This doesn&#x27;t seem like a huge deal to me.<p>This stepping down from his job and public self-flagellation seems overblown to me but I feel like I may not fully understand what his actions exactly were.
hellopat将近 8 年前
I find that he mentions the situation occurred &quot;over drinks&quot; a way to make it seem less innappropriate. It&#x27;s pretty simple, don&#x27;t hit on women you have a business relationship with. I&#x27;ve seen it happen on multiple occasions and I cringe every time.
pjzedalis将近 8 年前
He completely misses the forests from the trees.<p>Had the woman been hired she would have been denied by him the satisfaction of knowing she earned the position through her hard work, intelligence, and capabilities.<p>He also does not seem to recognize why he is a creep. Ultimately we find people creepy when they portray themselves and their motives one way and yet secretly or covertly act another.<p>I recommend therapy so that he can identify his true desires and motivations and then realign his life to optimize for them.
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partycoder将近 8 年前
Doesn&#x27;t count. The true character of a person is revealed when there&#x27;s no one around to punish bad behavior.
throwaway47861将近 8 年前
Meh, nice-written copy-paste apology I guess.<p>It changes nothing. In my eyes he has a stain for life. Exactly how it should be.
Aron将近 8 年前
Loses his job. Major strike on his career. National public shaming. I&#x27;m gonna click the link and go see what murderous crime he committed.
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tekstar将近 8 年前
This reminds me of when Jiam Ghomeshi made a post about being into S&amp;M right before his accusers charged him with rape.
SirLJ将近 8 年前
Pure PR, if he is really sorry, he should resign from all positions with &quot;power&quot; over other human beings...
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unityByFreedom将近 8 年前
Good on this guy for owning up. Now he has a chance to move on without trying to live his life as a lie.
seibelj将近 8 年前
I keep a 100% wall between work and personal life for a reason. Anyone I&#x27;m doing business with I see at best as a coworker or business acquaintance, so there is no risk of merging those two realms.<p>If you are powerful man or woman, you should be aware that people who know who you are treat you differently. This Dave McClure guy actually thought all these women were into him purely because he was some amazing dude and not because he could finance their dreams. What a moron
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newtem0将近 8 年前
Is asking a woman if you can buy her coffee sometime sexual harrasment if you do it at the workplace?
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throwawaycuz将近 8 年前
The amount Sacca&#x27;s been virtue signaling about gender equality, racism, how much he loves his wife -- for the last 3 years -- I knew something was up. When he started posting that he had moved to Montana, I got the feeling he was in hiding.
nnfy将近 8 年前
It sounds like people are underestimating the pervasive lonileness that even successful young males experience in tech. This does create an incentive for women to play a little loose with their professional behavior, and we only see one side of the story here.<p>No, I don&#x27;t mean to excuse McClure&#x27;s behavior entirely; however, the fact that many of these women did not immediately cease contact after innapropriate advances, and continues to take advantage of funds and mentorship, suggests that these women are at least partly culpable. This isn&#x27;t victim blaming; when you have hundreds of applicants to choose from&#x2F;compete with, it isn&#x27;t a surprise that people use&#x2F;accept sexual flirtation (and sometimes favors) to get ahead&#x2F;judge applicants.<p>People have been selling sex for thousands of years. The only novelty here is the outrage.
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julianmarq将近 8 年前
&gt; It&#x27;s a qualified apology. I dislike how he not-so-subtly tries to justify his actions by painting a context that delegitimizes Sarah&#x27;s claims.<p>What claims were &quot;deligitimized&quot; and how did he do it?<p>As for everything else you wrote I&#x27;ll just say it must be awful living with such a misanthropic view but, hey, you do you.
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gavriel将近 8 年前
This nerd thought it&#x27;s okay because he&#x27;s rich now. Well at least now he knows his place lol.
80211将近 8 年前
I&#x27;m not a creep! Where&#x27;s my trophy?
atlih将近 8 年前
All those examples give you the same or more power over them.
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imaginenore将近 8 年前
Damn, that&#x27;s a good apology. The guy seems to be working on fixing his behavior.
pgroves将近 8 年前
Best part is the woman who confronted the CEO about being a serial sexual-harrasser and ended up CEO.<p>Edit: Re-reading I can&#x27;t tell what his title was, only that she was CEO after the fact.
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thejerz将近 8 年前
[deleted]
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robtaylor将近 8 年前
Money can&#x27;t buy class and all that.
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throwaway05285将近 8 年前
Dave&#x27;s biggest mistake here was actually referring her for a job after this interaction. In the absence of that, it was a late night social event with alcohol where Dave made a pass on a girl (who may or may not have been signaling that this was appropriate as she was angling for a job) and she didn&#x27;t show interest. End of story.
opaol将近 8 年前
I know a former executive at Homeland Security who was also a federal prosecutor. He&#x27;s now the head of security for a large company that owns luxury condos.<p>When I reported a former roommate for prostituting teenage girls (my friends), the security executive said they didn&#x27;t want to know about it. This led to a dispute and the executive called five of my colleagues, intimidated them and told them lies about me.<p>The situation quickly devolved from there, involving a complicated tale of criminal and civil charges.<p>It was shocking to realize how many guys think its okay to offer girls money for sex, even if they&#x27;re young.
voidhorse将近 8 年前
This just feels like an save-face operation.<p>If these fellas want to show their commitment to changing it will require two things in my opinion:<p>1. A prolonged period of time without further incident.<p>2. Perhaps some dedicated effort to supporting, monetarily or otherwise, the elimination of this sort of behavior at the structural level? Start a campaign against sexism&#x2F;harassment or something? Though to make it not appear disingenuous they ought to do so in a fake name--that&#x27;s the problem when you&#x27;re outed as a manipulator in a position of power, literally every subsequent move you make reads like manipulation. The McClure case as described in the NYT article wasn&#x27;t too extreme and it is possible that some of it was misunderstanding and the he is being honest--it sounds like, for instance, 500 could have decided to end their conversations with Kunst for reasons beyond the message, but we&#x27;ll never know. For instance I cannot help but feel the majority of this piece is McClure looking out for McClure and not giving a shit about actually being sorry. Of course I don&#x27;t <i>know</i> that, but trust is difficult to regain.<p>Granted, McClure&#x27;s fuck up does jive with the context he describes here, but it just becomes very difficult to believe any of these apology letters are genuine until some time has passed in which that is shown to be the case.
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