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Concentration camps reveal the nature of the modern state

73 点作者 urahara将近 8 年前

9 条评论

beloch将近 8 年前
What concentration camps reveal is that modern people are squeamish about killing.<p>Consider the Mongol empire. While the Mongol empire had some things in common with a modern state, squeamishness about killing was not one of them. There are cases where they decided a city needed to be destroyed and they took great pains to make sure that destruction was total. Every man, woman, and child they could find was put to the sword (or axe). Depopulating an entire city was a difficult task before carpet bombing became an option. Mongol soldiers were given quotas and expected to produce enough ears to show that they had met that quota. Punishments for not meeting that quota were harsh. Ears were put into sacks and carted off in wagons to be counted. Even dogs, cats and chickens were killed in some cases. There are recorded instances of Mongol armies leaving towns after doing this and then deliberately returning a week or two later, just to make sure they got anyone who had managed to hide in a basement or who was out of town when they were first there.<p>Consider the Romans. After the third Punic war Carthage&#x27;s population was sold into slavery en masse and the city burned for 17 days. The earth was salted. There was no fourth Punic war because there were no Carthaginians left alive and free. Let&#x27;s not even talk about the Assyrians!<p>Many states throughout history have committed genocide against enemies and many others have persecuted populations within their own borders. Concentration camps are only necessary now because most people won&#x27;t stand for such atrocities, and states therefore feel compelled to carry them out in relative secrecy. Modern human society is gentler now than at any point in our past, although perhaps navel-gazing and self-accusatory articles like this are part of the reason why, no matter how uninformed they might be.
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Aqueous将近 8 年前
This strikes me as a massive overgeneralization. States are just an organizational structure of institutions, tasked with operating a society. They are not intrinsically inclined towards building concentration camps any more than they are intrinsically inclined towards providing healthcare or delivering a basic income. States operating under an ideology of madness will operate as if mad. States operating under an ideology of reason will operate reasonably.<p>And for me at least, the main take-away from the image of the concentration camp is clear: elections have consequences, so take your vote seriously. Form a functional coalition with others to elect the least terrible person you can. If you don&#x27;t, you may end up handing the machinery of the state - capable of harm on a massive scale - over to the unsavory or the insane. That&#x27;s the lesson of the concentration camps and the lesson of recent history.<p>So I think the distinction between the nature of the state and the nature of its citizens is important for effective democratic participation. If you are so cynical that you think that &#x27;concentration camps reveal the nature of the modern state,&#x27; why would you participate in such a thing? If we are collectively down on the very concept of the state, there&#x27;s no way to run a good one.
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gumby将近 8 年前
Great little summary. It&#x27;s a shame the author didn&#x27;t get to &#x2F; have space for the discussion of refugee camps, which are structurally little different from the german internal camps of the eRly 1930s or the DP camps at the end of WWII.<p>The nature of the Nazi&#x2F;Soviet&#x2F;cpc&#x2F;nk camps provides &quot;air cover&quot; for the widespread and more pervasive networks of camps still in use around the world.
throwanem将近 8 年前
I approached this subject, most of a year ago, here in HN comments: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=12568718" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=12568718</a><p>I&#x27;m glad to have such a clear opportunity to see the vast difference in quality of results achieved by a professional historian on the one hand, and an armchair historiographer like me on the other. I&#x27;m looking forward to reading his book.
olivermarks将近 8 年前
tldr 20th century nation states are based on a world of fear and paranoia around mutually exclusive notions of ethnic and national homogeneity and territorial integrity.<p>Incarceration techniques employed in concentration camps were borrowed in a transnational framework. They aided each state in isolating the unwanted (racial, religious, etc) and controlling the rest of the population through the implied threat of ending up in a camp for not conforming.
novia将近 8 年前
<i>[...] a more analytically fruitful approach is to examine the impact of the First World War. Here, for the first time in modern Europe, we see [...] the willingness of the state to incarcerate huge numbers of civilians considered threatening.</i><p>This statement was the one I found most intriguing in the entire article, but then the author did not expand on it. Maybe he does so in his book. It was strange to me to consider that this state of the world has not always been the norm.<p>When I looked into it, I found conflicting sources of information. Anyone with knowledge on the subject feel like expanding on this?
frabbit将近 8 年前
Sounds interesting. By contrast Timothy Snyder in _Black_Earth_ argues that concentration camps were created as institutions that were deliberately outside of the state to facilitate slaughter: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.npr.org&#x2F;2015&#x2F;09&#x2F;09&#x2F;438943243&#x2F;black-earth-explores-dangers-of-misunderstanding-the-holocaust" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.npr.org&#x2F;2015&#x2F;09&#x2F;09&#x2F;438943243&#x2F;black-earth-explores...</a>
mnm1将近 8 年前
We obviously haven&#x27;t seen the last of them when the US has a network of prisons that holds almost 2.5 million people, many of them concentrated for rather obvious racial reasons. Just because they are built of brick and steel does not change their basic tenet. Nor does the use of prisons for such purposes or the fact that there are actual criminals in prisons in addition to the concentrated populations.
MichaelMoser123将近 8 年前
Stephan Zweig describes this new sense of nationalism as state policy after WWI in the &#x27;World of Yesterday&#x27;; actually before the great world one could travel without passports or identification papers at all - that serves him as the detail that serves to explain the big thing.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;ia801609.us.archive.org&#x2F;21&#x2F;items&#x2F;in.ernet.dli.2015.176552&#x2F;2015.176552.The-World-Of-Yesterday_text.pdf" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;ia801609.us.archive.org&#x2F;21&#x2F;items&#x2F;in.ernet.dli.2015.1...</a><p>&quot;Nationalism emerged to agitate the world only after the war, and the first visible phenomenon which this intellectual epidemic of our century brought about was xenophobia : morbid dislike of the foreigner, or at least fear of the foreigner. The world was on the defensive against strangers, everywhere they got short shrift. The humiliations which once had been devised with criminals alone in mind now were imposed upon the traveller, before and during every journey. There had to be photographs from right and left, in profile and full face, one’s hair had to be cropped sufficiently to make the ears visible; fingerprints were taken, at first only the thumb but later all ten fingers ; furthermore, certificates of health, of vaccination, police certificates of good standing, had to be shown ; letters of recommendation were required, invitations to visit a country had to be procured ; they asked for the addresses of relatives, for moral and financial guarantees, questionnaires, and forms in triplicate and quadruplicate needed to be filled out, and if only one of this sheaf of papers was missing one was lost.<p>Petty details, one thinks. And at the first glance it may seem petty in me even to mention them. But our generation has foolishly wasted irretrievable, valuable time on those senseless pettinesses. If I reckon up the many forms I have filled out during these years, declarations on every trip, tax declarations, foreign exchange certificates, border passes, entrance permits, departure permits, registrations on coming and on going ; the many hours I have spent in anterooms of consulates and officials, the many inspectors, friendly and unfriendly, bored and overworked, before whom I have sat, the many examinations and interrogations at frontiers I have been through, then I feel keenly how much human dignity has been lost in this century which, in our youth, we had credulously dreamed of as one of freedom, as of the federation of the world. The loss in creative work, in thought, as a result of those spirit-crushing procedures is incalculable. Have not many of us spent more time studying official rules and regulations than works of the intellect ! The first excursion in a foreign country was no longer to a museum or to a world-renowned view, but to a consulate, to a police office, to get a “permit&quot; When those of us who had once conversed about Baudelaire’s poetry and spiritedly discussed intellectual problems met together, we would catch ourselves talking about affidavits and permits and whether one should apply for an immigration visa or a tourist visa ; acquaintance with a stenographer in a consulate who could cut down one’s waiting- time was more significant to one’s existence than friendship with a Toscanini or a Rolland. Human beings were made to feel that they were objects and not subjects, that nothing was their right but everything merely a favour by official grace. They were codified, registered, numbered, stamped and even today I, as a case-hardened creature of an age of freedom and a citizen of the world-republic of my dreams, count every impression of a rubber-stamp in my passport a stigma, every one of those hearings and searches a humiliation. They are petty trifles, always merely trifles, I am well aware, trifles in a day when human values sink more rapidly than those of currencies. But only if one notes such insignificant symptoms will a later age be able to make a proper clinical record of the mental state and mental disturbances with which our world was seized between the two World Wars.