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The Google memo isn’t sexist or anti-diversity, it’s science

592 点作者 20100thibault将近 8 年前

51 条评论

Ajedi32将近 8 年前
Not much new here. This article is essentially just re-affirming all the scientific statements that were already made in the original memo, backed by links to scientific studies.<p>Only difference being that the author of this article has a PhD in sexual neuroscience (so people might have a harder time accusing her of not knowing what she&#x27;s talking about) and is female (so some people might have a harder time of accusing her of sexism).
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snowwrestler将近 8 年前
The article hides a common but incorrect assumption. Look at this paragraph:<p>&gt; As mentioned in the memo, gendered interests are predicted by exposure to prenatal testosterone – higher levels are associated with a preference for mechanically interesting things and occupations in adulthood. Lower levels are associated with a preference for people-oriented activities and occupations. This is why STEM (science, technology, engineering and mathematics) fields tend to be dominated by men.<p>The assumption here is that employment in STEM industries fundamentally and solely involves &quot;mechanically interesting things&quot;.<p>The reality is that tech companies are composed of people and make products for people. Google themselves have found through their own research that the best managers are defined by their people skills, not their technical skills. So why aren&#x27;t the management layers of tech companies composed of mostly women?<p>Strong technology is important for success, but so is leadership, market fit, team dynamics, understanding the customer, etc. The hardest question in tech companies is not &quot;how&quot; to build, but &quot;what&quot; to build. This is essentially a people-oriented problem, since customers are people.<p>EDIT: this tweet puts it succinctly:<p>&gt; WEIRD how none of these guys ever argue that because our ladybrains are better at communication and teamwork we should be paid more<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;kelliotttt&#x2F;status&#x2F;894770623611682818" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;kelliotttt&#x2F;status&#x2F;894770623611682818</a>
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megous将近 8 年前
What I find interesting about all this is how many people take personal offense from statistics. (and conclusions drawn from statistics)<p>The author seems to put an effort into explaining statistical distribution and what it means and what not. He&#x27;s explicit that statistical observations can&#x27;t be used to judge particular individuals. Draws a graph of overlapping distributions to drive the point home even more.<p>I&#x27;m not sure why would anyone get offended by statistical observation. It&#x27;s not personal <i>by definition</i>.
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piokoch将近 8 年前
I am always surprised that well educated people who are definitely not &quot;creationists&quot; but consider evolution as a way human kind developed are ready to ignore evolution when it comes to gender.<p>Clearly man and woman are different physically and mentally as for millenias they played different roles. Why &quot;gender people&quot; keep ignoring that and are claiming that sex is not something inborn and is a &quot;cultural&quot; phenomena is hard to understand.<p>For me gender studies are just new incarnation of Lysenkoism. Lysenko strongly belived (and thousands of soviet scientist) that weeds could spontaneously evolve into food grains because is should cooperate with communistic party.<p>Those who were against that obvious stupidity and claimed that genetics is the way to understand plant evolution were fired or put to jail or executed.<p>Similarly absurdal ideas were brought by soviet lingustics - if any one wants to have good fun, there is no better reading then Stalins&#x27;s &quot;Linguistics&quot;.
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dm319将近 8 年前
&gt; But sexism isn’t the result of knowing facts; it’s the result of what people choose to do with them.<p>We know that men are taller than women. I can see you agreeing, but actually this statement is ambiguous, because these two are not the same thing:<p><pre><code> A man is taller than a women On average, men are taller than women </code></pre> Sexism is taking a random male and a random female, and claiming that despite all the facts presented to you, the male is taller than the female. It doesn&#x27;t matter that in a specific case a female is taller than a male.<p>The same can be applied to any group and their respective stereotype. The *ism happens when we fail to assess an individual on the data given to us, preferring to fall back on mentally-lazy stereotypes&#x2F;generalisations even when what we can see says something different.<p><pre><code> A single study, published in 2015, did claim that male and female brains existed along a “mosaic” and that it isn’t possible to differentiate them by sex, but this has been refuted by four – yes, four – academic studies since. This includes a study that analyzed the exact same brain data from the original study and found that the sex of a given brain could be correctly identified with 69-per-cent to 77-per-cent accuracy. </code></pre> Well I&#x27;d argue that isn&#x27;t great accuracy as 50% is what you&#x27;d expect from chance (though I haven&#x27;t read those references). In fact, I might expect a similar accuracy from a machine-learning technique to predict sex based on your height.<p>I haven&#x27;t touched on the causes of population differences. With height, I don&#x27;t think anyone thinks it&#x27;s anything other than genetic (by way of testosterone levels). For interests and skills, the proportion that is caused by testosterone versus culture&#x2F;environment is still unclear.<p>If we believe there is still a cultural effect, then I think positive discrimination is justified to counter this.<p>As an anecdote, we were wondering why our four-year old son suddenly lost interest in &#x27;Frozen&#x27;. He told us this week that a girl had told him at nursery that &#x27;Frozen&#x27; wasn&#x27;t for boys. Cultural stereotype reinforcement is alive and well, and starts early!
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dvfjsdhgfv将近 8 年前
To people who are flagging this article: why don&#x27;t you read it? It&#x27;s important, and the author is competent.
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kartan将近 8 年前
Women work in the Berlin Post Office with calculators, 1928: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.alamy.com&#x2F;stock-photo-women-work-in-the-berlin-post-office-with-calculators-1928-48346914.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.alamy.com&#x2F;stock-photo-women-work-in-the-berlin-po...</a><p>The managers, a more people-oriented activity, are all men. But the people working with actual calculators are women. And it was not just this office, this was happening everywhere. Working with a calculator was a woman&#x27;s job.<p>More: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.history.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;human-computers-women-at-nasa" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.history.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;human-computers-women-at-nasa</a><p>There is a lot of factors to why STEM is dominated by men. Testosterone may be one, for real, but it is not the only one. And it doesn&#x27;t justify such a big difference in numbers.<p>I don&#x27;t know if the engineer wrote something awful or not, but this article is just a justification for the difference as if nothing can be done. And that is not true.
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program_whiz将近 8 年前
I have a question to further this debate.<p>Would people consider it sexist to administer a completely automated test of technical and personality questions which was used by an unbiased program to hire only the best qualified candidates?<p>What would you say if the results were essentially the same as the status quo?<p>By the Article&#x27;s Author&#x27;s account, she believes that we would probably maintain the status quo with such a test, because she thinks people are self-selecting out of STEM. Others seem to think that there is some other barrier to entering -- would a test like this fix the issue, or is there something else going on?
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typicalbender将近 8 年前
As an additional perspective, here&#x27;s an interview from James&#x27; perspective[1]. The interviewer is clearly fairly bias and holds the same viewpoint which is unfortunate but I think hearing James&#x27; perspective on the purpose of the document is interesting.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=agU-mHFcXdw" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=agU-mHFcXdw</a>
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Joeri将近 8 年前
I have always felt very ambivalent about affirmative action. It is a form of discrimination and therefore furthers the message that discerning based on gender or race is acceptable. You can make a strong argument that it is harmful, which is what the memo did.<p>However...<p>In the kingdom of Belgium at some point the rule was introduced that half of all political candidates for election must be women and had to receive equally prominent placement on ballots (by alternating male and female candidates). People were still free to vote men into office, but the idea was that it would give women a fairer chance. The same criticisms were said. Before you saw a low percentage of women in politics, like most countries. This was attributed to women having less of an affinity for politics. And yet, after a few election cycles this caused a shift in mindset as well as quality of female candidates and who was elected. Women are no longer perceived to be less suited for politics, the most popular politician is a woman, and gender has gone away as a divisive issue in politics. So, it actually worked. By making people so used to women politicians the issue went away, and you could probably get rid of the quotas and still see a 50% split in the next election.<p>So maybe our genetic predispositions matter far less than we think, and we can change mindsets through affirmative action. But it has to be all-in 50&#x2F;50 % split, so that it will change people&#x27;s perception of normal.
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root_axis将近 8 年前
&gt; <i>Scientific studies have confirmed sex differences in the brain that lead to differences in our interests and behaviour.</i><p>This is obvious and not the point of contention. The crux of the other side&#x27;s disagreement is in the assumption that differences in brain chemistry attributable to sex necessarily account for all or the majority of the differences we observe in career distributions. I think the insane reaction to this memo is unfortunate because the author does appear to make an earnest effort to discuss this topic, but the memo&#x27;s defenders are not doing the argument any favors by arguing against the weakest version of the opposing argument.
alexholehouse将近 8 年前
<i>As mentioned in the memo, gendered interests are predicted by exposure to prenatal testosterone – higher levels are associated with a preference for mechanically interesting things and occupations in adulthood. Lower levels are associated with a preference for people-oriented activities and occupations. This is why STEM (science, technology, engineering and mathematics) fields tend to be dominated by men.</i><p>And why we see fields like law being dominated by women, right?<p>EDIT: I, and I suspect <i>most</i> other scientists wouldn&#x27;t disagree that there are [edit - had this as aren&#x27;t previously, woops!] physiological differences between men and women, but as I read the memo, that was not what was being argued. What was being argued was that those differences were the <i>reason</i> for the gender imbalance in tech (i.e. women are predisposition to be less interested&#x2F;capable in STEM fields), in other words, the effect size associated with biological sex is larger (and indeed must be <i>significantly</i> larger) than any&#x2F;all combined societal&#x2F;&#x27;nurture&#x27; effects.
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notacoward将近 8 年前
As with many defenses of the Damore memo (and more than a few attacks against it as well), this completely misses the point. Let&#x27;s say for the sake of argument that there are differences in ability and&#x2F;or preference between men and women. Let&#x27;s even say that the magnitude of those differences is sufficient to explain a 4:1 ratio between male and female engineers at Google (which is clearly not true). My response is still SO WHAT? That outlandish premise still doesn&#x27;t even begin to justify his tone, his complaints, or his policy proposals.<p>* Differences in ability do not support his accusation of silencing. They&#x27;re unrelated.<p>* Phrases like &quot;the left tends to deny science&quot; and &quot;extremely sensitive PC-authoritarians&quot; are inflammatory, prejudicial, and discriminatory in their own right, independently of whether gender differences exist.<p>* Diversity is provably good even in the presence of gender differences. Many studies have shown that the effect of mixed teams outperforming single-gender teams far outweighs any individual differences.<p>I could go on and on about other ways that Damore comes across as a radically intolerant jerk, a hypocrite, etc. but I&#x27;m trying to stay on one point. The &quot;science&quot; part of Damore&#x27;s memo, which the OP is meant to support, is practically irrelevant. That&#x27;s not the only part that&#x27;s offensive, or dangerous, or in violation of his employee agreement. It&#x27;s not even the only part that&#x27;s unscientific, since sociology and economics are involved as well as biology and he doesn&#x27;t even try to engage honestly with those. His belief that women are less fit to be engineers is abhorrent, but so <i>separately</i> are his other beliefs. Even the strongest refutation of that one point doesn&#x27;t make a dent in the memo&#x27;s total start-to-finish toxicity.
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jamesrcole将近 8 年前
What disturbs me most about this incident is how many people&#x27;s first instinct, when faced with views they strongly disagree with, is to try and <i></i>suppress<i></i> those views and the person speaking them. Not to engage with the argument or to try and argue against it, just to shut the other person down. It&#x27;s a totalitarian kind of response.
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ainiriand将近 8 年前
Firing this guy was just a PR move in order to keep things under control. The memo was accurate and I know that Google is going to learn from it even if the guy has been sacrified.
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StrangeOrange将近 8 年前
I think it&#x27;s important for us to gain some kind of perspective here. Whatever current science (or &quot;science&quot;) says on the matter, that&#x27;s not the point. These arguments seem to be of the following: women are inherently less capable of being good engineers, therefore they should be underrepresented in engineering.<p>Okay, now let&#x27;s extend that argument out from the engineering sphere.<p>Using the same logic, the following attitudes should be accepted: 1. physically disabled people are inherently less suited to being mobile, so we shouldn&#x27;t put in effort to allow them to be as mobile as non-disabled people 2. Men are inherently less suited for child care, so we shouldn&#x27;t put in effort to help them be as good at child care as women<p>I wouldn&#x27;t be surprised if some of you endorsed the attitudes I&#x27;ve just presented, but that would make you immoral by modern standards, so you could then assume that you&#x27;re being immoral on the gender diversity issue.<p>This whole thing comes down to a fundamental lack of empathy. If you&#x27;re not going to have empathy for women in tech, there&#x27;s no reason that anyone should have empathy for you in areas that you&#x27;re not suited to. So, if you accept one, accept the consequences of the other.
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apeace将近 8 年前
No matter how you debate the validity of the science, I hope people pay attention to one suggestion the &#x27;manifesto&#x27; author made: that his company should do more pair programming.<p>Pairing has always struck me as a great way to get programmers communicating better. Without addressing any other points in the manifesto, I think he&#x27;s correct that encouraging pairing would be a good way to make development environments more collaborative.
Delmania将近 8 年前
From below (I wanted to make sure this didn&#x27;t get hidden under a downvoted comment):<p>&gt;I fail to understand how a memo calling for MORE diversity can get headlined as &quot;anti-diversity memo&quot; on all big media outlets. Do journalists even do independent research anymore or are they just regurgitating whatever reuters send their way without scrutiny?<p>The author is referring to psychological diversity, in other words, Google should be more receptive to diverse viewpoints. This is both true and not true. Yes, we should listen to others and understand, but that does not mean we should accept and value everyone&#x27;s viewpoints. To invoke Goodwin&#x27;s Law, perhaps we should be more sympathetic to the viewpoints of Nazis? How about white supremacists?<p>There are viewpoints that do harm people within society, and this is one of them. Strip this down, this is the basic &quot;woman&#x27;s nature&quot; argument that was used for years in the past to keep women barefoot and in the kitchen. The underlying claim that women are bad at tech is ridiculous. As mentioned below, the early programmers and data entry workers were women as it was considered &quot;office work&quot;. I&#x27;ll also throw out names like Grace Hopper and Ada Lovelace. Read a site like Godel&#x27;s Lost Letter, and Lipton always points out women who have made contributions to the field. I even recall an article about a house wife who researched new fractals. Women have been engaged in science, technology, engineering, and math (and medicine) since the beginning. They were male dominated because people held the viewpoint the author does, which is essentially, &quot;It&#x27;s not a woman&#x27; place&quot;. Bullshit, plain and simple. This memo does not call for more diversity. It may cite scientific research (yes, men and women are different physically and psychologically), but it calls for the same status quo that initiatives like the ones the author lambasts are trying to overcome. Are they perfect? No. but they are a step in the right direction. We need to understand these difference and adapt to them not use those differences as a way to exclude.
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jpmattia将近 8 年前
I&#x27;m surprised greater attention is not focused on the fact the &quot;science&quot; is in the midst of a reproducibility crisis. This is a big issue in the hard sciences; I can only imagine what it&#x27;s like in the squishy science of gender behavior.<p>Tying your reputation to such a soft foundation is just inviting trouble.
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blahblah3将近 8 年前
Seems like a lot of the controversy around these types of discussions comes from the consequences of bayesian inference.<p>If you know that men and women differ in a distributional sense with respect to some trait, that gives you a prior to work off-of when you meet a new individual. This is rational from bayes theorem, so simply saying &quot;you should treat everyone as an individual&quot; is not nuanced enough.<p>However, as you acquire more information about a particular individual (such as passing a difficult google interview, or knowing that they&#x27;ve succeeded in a reputable CS curriculum), this should quickly &quot;swamp&quot; the prior, causing it to contribute very little to the final inference.<p>The problem is the humans are not great at adjusting like this: we&#x27;re not perfect at applying bayes theorem in our heads. We tend to overstate the influence of various priors when there are stronger signals at hand. Nevertheless, incorporating prior distributional information is NOT irrational, but generally overdone.<p>Therefore, it seems like the approach of some is to shout down information that would suggest biological distributional differences, to try guarantee that people don&#x27;t overuse prior information.
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ArenaSource将近 8 年前
So, this is science too:<p>Inmate Gender - Male: 93.3% Female: 6.7% [1]<p>&quot;In view of these overwhelming results measures must be taken to remove men from jobs where their predisposition to crime may have negative repercussions on society.&quot;<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bop.gov&#x2F;about&#x2F;statistics&#x2F;statistics_inmate_gender.jsp" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bop.gov&#x2F;about&#x2F;statistics&#x2F;statistics_inmate_gende...</a>
SCAQTony将近 8 年前
I think science is a bit hyperbolic a term for this fiasco. More like mere statistics at best and we know how statistics can work out.<p>Calling psychology or psychiatry a science is a generous proclamation. None of the above practitioners, including a neuroscientist, neurologist, or a cognitive scientist, can explain completely why someone can look at a shot of whiskey, know it is an expensive whiskey, know how to balance the shot to their lips, then prepare for the burn, and then swallow it while hoping they will get &quot;lucky&quot; tonight but feel lousy tomorrow all at the same time.<p>We&#x27;re not there yet when it comes to classifying humanity into &quot;phylums&quot; or categories via science.
markdog12将近 8 年前
Was horrified to see this flagged. Why would anybody flag a scientific viewpoint from a credible source with citations? Refute and discuss it, sure, but why flag it?
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gkya将近 8 年前
This stuff is going all-medieval, with witch hunts and pseudo-rogues. People are going back to emotionally responding to facts and following who shouts louder. Fixing gender issues is one thing, suppressing facts yo dislike is another.<p>We wouldn&#x27;t have a percent of liberties and developments also in the anti-patriarchal quest without science and rationalism.
lawtguy将近 8 年前
Some additional data taken from the National Center for Education Statistics (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;nces.ed.gov&#x2F;programs&#x2F;digest&#x2F;d15&#x2F;tables&#x2F;dt15_318.30.asp" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;nces.ed.gov&#x2F;programs&#x2F;digest&#x2F;d15&#x2F;tables&#x2F;dt15_318.30.a...</a>)<p>Bachelor&#x27;s degrees by sex from 2013-2014:<p>Mathematics, general: 43.9% earned by women (7,420 out of 16,914) Chemistry, general: 47.7% earned by women (6,556 out of 13,730) Physics, general: 18.7% earned by women (1,124 out of 6,002) Computer Science: 14.5% earned by women (1,914 out of 13,220)<p>It seems like all of the gender differences pointed out about women in the diversity memo would apply equally to Physics and Computer Science as they do to Mathematics and Chemistry, but they gender ratio of Mathematics and Chemistry degrees is much closer to 50&#x2F;50. So why the big difference?
daughart将近 8 年前
Anyone who wants to use &quot;science&quot; in this way needs to read &quot;The Golem&quot; by prominent sociologists of science Collins and Pinch. It&#x27;s a short, enjoyable read. One of the things you&#x27;ll learn is that science can only ask the questions humans want to ask, and science often says exactly what people want it to say.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amazon.com&#x2F;Golem-Should-About-Science-Classics&#x2F;dp&#x2F;1107604656;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amazon.com&#x2F;Golem-Should-About-Science-Classics&#x2F;d...</a> online link: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;cstpr.colorado.edu&#x2F;students&#x2F;envs_5110&#x2F;collins_the_golem.pdf" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;cstpr.colorado.edu&#x2F;students&#x2F;envs_5110&#x2F;collins_the_gol...</a>
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mbfg将近 8 年前
My experience has been that i get about 10-1 resumes from men vs women. Is it possible that they are being unfairly filtered by head hunters before i receive them? Could be.. i wouldn&#x27;t think so, but i don&#x27;t know. Of the candidates resume&#x27;s i receive, the candidates that are women tend to be good, probably better than the average male candidate i get. But they are not 10x better, so at the end of the day, following the natural course there wouldn&#x27;t be an equal base of candidates.<p>Being just one sample, mine, it is completely statistically irrelevant. But it&#x27;s the only thing i personally can go on. I want good candidates, if you can find me more good women candidates, that would be great.
tptacek将近 8 年前
This defense of the &quot;manifesto&quot; is flawed just like the others. It picks out a small subset of the claims made in the document, discards the context and all the other claims, and then harangues us for having a problem with &quot;science&quot;. I could argue &quot;water is composed of two hydrogen molecules and one oxygen molecule, so women are bad at software development&quot;, and my argument would just be a difference of degree worse than hers.<p>We can talk straightforwardly about what makes the document problematic: whatever the validity of the &quot;scientific&quot; claims it makes about gender differences, there is no support (and likely no validity) to the connections it then makes to software development work. Despite that unjustified leap, the document goes on to suggest strongly that women working at Google are less qualified than men. There is no science Debrah Soh can cite to back up that assertion, however much she might want to.<p>Anyone can wrap an incendiary statement up in a pile of banal sentiment and ambiguous appeals to social science. When challenged, refocus the debate on the truisms and the footnotes and pretend you didn&#x27;t write the nasty stuff you hid in the middle. And, as we can see, plenty of very smart people will fall for the trick.<p>Gender equity has been improving in the United States for several generations. As that has occurred, female participation in STEM fields (and in the professions, like medicine and law) has expanded dramatically. Many science fields are now approaching parity. Most have more than twice as much participation as computer science. That includes the field of mathematics, which is closely related to computer science and is certainly more intellectually challenging than &quot;computer science&quot; as practiced in the industry.<p>Among all STEM fields, computer science is distinguished for <i>losing</i> the participation of women over the last 10 years.<p>Unless the women of 1950 are somehow biologically different from those of 2017, the author&#x27;s theory will somehow have to address the fact that her argument would have predicted the fields or law, medicine, biochem, mathematics, astronomy, statistics, accounting, and actuary would all be bereft of women over the 20th century --- obviously, the opposite occurred, despite the sexual revolution that was immediately to come.<p>The author of this article discusses a correlation between increasing gender equity and decreased STEM participation that does not appear in the evidence. There&#x27;s a reason she does that: if you don&#x27;t stipulate that correlation, the argument against gender bias in computer science has to confront another damning fact, which is that gender disparity in the field isn&#x27;t global. Unless women in Asia are somehow biologically different than those of the US, her argument needs some way to address the fact that women make up the majority of STEM majors in many of those cultures.<p>Reading this article and then this thread, I find that there&#x27;s really only two aspects of it that HN finds persuasive: the headline&#x27;s appeal to &quot;science&quot;, and the footnote observing that the author is a female scientist. That&#x27;s not enough. Everything in between those things is wildly off.<p>In discussions about gender parity in CS, the word &quot;preference&quot; is a coded appeal to the Just World Hypothesis. There is a yawning chasm between neuroscience findings about &quot;agreeableness&quot; and &quot;stress tolerance&quot; and suitability for any particular kind of white-collar symbol-manipulation work. Ms. Soh must intuitively understand that, but mentions it not once in her piece, instead pretending that observations about the kinds of toys children play with allow us to reflect participation statistics directly into real preferences about work. Shenanigans.
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Someone将近 8 年前
I think it is unfair to call this &quot;the <i>Google</i> manifesto&quot;.<p>If I state here that it is scientifically expected to see more <i>foos</i> than <i>bars</i> on HN, and then get banned because of it, that wouldn&#x27;t become HN&#x27;s manifesto, either.<p>I fear that, a few years from now, people will say it represented Google&#x27;s official standpoints (which it doesn&#x27;t) or those of a significant portion of its employees (which may or may not be the case, from what I know)<p>&quot;Google employee&#x27;s manifesto&quot; or &quot;James Damore&#x27;s manifesto&quot; are better names.
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throw2016将近 8 年前
This is not rational science. Without specific measures on every single person in Google, and a &#x27;bar&#x27; and methodology that meets scientific rigour no can can rationally make any claims about &#x27;lowering the bar&#x27;.<p>Speculation not from a social scientist as their job but a worker within Google apart from being grossly misplaced begins to sound eerily similar to the ravings of self obsessed supremacists cherry picking science. This is what hostility looks like.<p>And women then should be rightfully wary of all these fragile men who will watch them like hawks looking for any excuse to confirm their bias.<p>Google should send a memo explicitly stating anyone who thinks women or any group lower the bar should leave. This is not a place for bigots. It&#x27;s a place for mature educated well adjusted adults to work together.<p>Anyone who supported that letter should in good conscience leave the organization which is &#x27;lowering the bar&#x27;, a definition no random individual not suffering from extreme hubris is &#x27;qualified&#x27; to set and the prerogative of the organization and experts qualified for it.<p>If you are obsessed with diversity lowering the bar you can become a &#x27;measuring the bar expert&#x27; and invest the time required educating yourself to become an expert before presuming to speak with authority you do not possess about a scientific field that does not trade in certainties.
kuschku将近 8 年前
This article would be a lot more worthy of a discussion if it actually discussed the actual issues.<p>How much is nature vs. nurture? (many of the behaviours the manifesto attributed to genetics are actually purely environmental)<p>Should that even matter? Shouldn&#x27;t hiring processes be purely meritocratic?<p>The fact that the author of the memo argued for affirmative action for hiring more conservatives shows that he doesn&#x27;t have anything against discrimination, as long as he profits. If he wanted a science-backed solution, he&#x27;d have supported motions to remove the topic of gender, race, political affiliation entirely from the hiring process. (Anonymous job applications can help with that).<p>Many of the sources were also quite misleading, or links to blogs instead of papers. The memo wouldn&#x27;t pass peer review at any journal, and can, frankly said, not be called science.<p>As we also just had a big discussion about this topic on HN, this article is misleading and from an outlet that previously has published hit pieces on diversity policies[1], I flagged it - this discussion belongs into the recent megathread, not as its own onto the frontpage again.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theglobeandmail.com&#x2F;opinion&#x2F;will-trump-make-america-white-again&#x2F;article35904698&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theglobeandmail.com&#x2F;opinion&#x2F;will-trump-make-amer...</a>
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toptal将近 8 年前
This is actually a great scientific read.
t0mbstone将近 8 年前
Google says they want to hire a diverse collection of employees, so that the solutions they build in the future aren&#x27;t one-dimensional, possessing only the stereotypical white male&#x27;s mindset and approach.<p>The fact that they stated this very desire proves that they believe that women are different than men, and that women might theoretically approach a problem or solution differently than a man.<p>But if someone writes a manifesto which points out that, &quot;Hey, maybe men and women are different, with different traits and mindsets (when considered across the whole average)&quot;, suddenly that person is sexist.<p>Google wants to have their cake and eat it too. They want to pretend there are no tangible difference between the way males and females work and think, but they also want a diverse culture that can benefit from the different ways how males and females work and think.
habosa将近 8 年前
Does it matter? Ask a woman you know, preferably one in tech, to read the memo and tell you how she feels.<p>The women in tech that I&#x27;ve asked felt somewhere between offended and furious and, more importantly, would not feel comfortable working with someone who wrote such a memo and distributed it to his colleagues.
alkonaut将近 8 年前
Why can&#x27;t the memo be both sexist and science? Arguing that there are differences between genders that make one gender unsuitable for a task can be as scientific as you want, it&#x27;s still sexist.<p>It&#x27;s no different from doing the same but replacing gender with race - it&#x27;s racist no matter how carefully and scientifically you worded it.<p>It&#x27;s almost as if the person writing this article believes that if the manifesto is factually&#x2F;scientifically correct then it must somehow not be sexist. As if sexism consisted of lies? I don&#x27;t get it.
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kaffeemitsahne将近 8 年前
Funny that she calls it &quot;the Google manifesto&quot;, as if it were endorsed by Google.
virgilp将近 8 年前
There was a joke in communist times about the 5 commendments. I guess James Damore just learned them:<p>1. Thou shalt not think<p>2. If thou thought, thou shalt not speak<p>3. If thou spoke, thou shalt not write<p>4. If thou wrote, thou shalt not sign<p>5. If thou signed, thou shalt not act surprised.
slitaz将近 8 年前
So I read this article and do not see any merit or value.<p>The article mixes up genetics with what people end up doing in life.
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HeavyStorm将近 8 年前
It seems to me that we are moving from gender equality, i.e. equal rights, to &quot;gender sameness&quot;.
pmlnr将近 8 年前
551 points, 23 hours, and this is already not on the first 5 pages of HN.<p>Can someone please tell me, why?
nyxtom将近 8 年前
The base of her argument rests on this:<p>&quot;In fact, research has shown that cultures with greater gender equity have larger sex differences when it comes to job preferences, because in these societies, people are free to choose their occupations based on what they enjoy.&quot;<p>Jim Flynn&#x27;s study has unequivocally proven that raising the standards of modern introduction and access to equal education, living standards, and nutrition show increases in overall propensity for cognitive achievement. Though, if you talk to an anthropologist the nature of the term &quot;intelligence&quot; and &quot;cognitive ability&quot; is used in the mixed usage term but says nothing of the nature of intelligence.<p>Nevertheless, the entire debate is whether we are actually in an egalitarian society to begin with. The nature of even measuring cognitive ability with the g-factor is that it is derived from relative populations. Gender differences might indeed be more amplified in these type of societies but the debate is whether we are already there and to what degree sectors of our large country have access to that.<p>I would argue, as others have, that the distribution of equal treatment, based on the evidence of exodus from the field of technology speaks far larger volumes about the industry as a whole than it does about biological differences.<p>Indeed, let&#x27;s even take into account those biological differences that are being discussed here. Just because one has the propensity to behave a certain way in front a social group of men, and different when a female is around (this too has scientific backing), you could argue that the change in behavior over time would be a product of how distributed those groups are (in thought and in numbers). Food for thought.<p>It&#x27;s also interesting to note that creative endeavors tend to lead to high correlations of neuroticism as well. If there are biological differences that show that women are, on average, tend to be more neurotic than men, it doesn&#x27;t really say much about the nature of interaction or the way we behave with one another. Furthermore, to even attempt to use this as reasoning that women may not last within male-dominated environments is insulting in itself. What it really actually proves is that the inequality in both the diversity thought and in numbers only reinforces the problem. The logic is rot with flaws, (I&#x27;m paraphrasing several sections with lines of reasoning; i.e. de-emphasizing empathy) &quot;due to the nature of the tendency for behaving a certain way, we should not make attempts at empathizing with one another because of the heightened sensitivity.&quot; Not only is this flawed logic, it&#x27;s not scientific in the least bit. I would&#x27;ve fired him on that alone.<p>Indeed, you can also conclude from similar studies that creative endeavors have the tendency to being higher activity in the medial prefrontal cortex. (<a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.sciencedirect.com&#x2F;science&#x2F;article&#x2F;pii&#x2F;S1364661315001540" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.sciencedirect.com&#x2F;science&#x2F;article&#x2F;pii&#x2F;S1364661315...</a>) Due to the nature of mulling over problems, the tendency is that this often is indicitive of a higher threat sensitivity (real or otherwise); hence the neurotism. This doesn&#x27;t say anything about the gender differences therein, but rather the brain itself when it comes to problem solving in general.<p>Of course, the greater problem here is about the nature of social interaction. We can take into account how men tend to behave around other men, or in the presence of women, or women around other women, or in mixed groups; we can take into account innate differences (however pronounced or not); we can even take into account the debate over the access to a population which is educated enough to enter the field of study. Even taking into account the meta-analysis study on things-people, it is a bit presumptuous to think that parity is not obtainable or necessary in STEM.<p>The nature of STEM revolves around the problems that are being solved. One would hope that those problems are about solving them for PEOPLE. One would hope that software engineers employ creativity and artistic nuances when architecting and collaborating with others. The base of that study only speaks about the anthropologic nature of how people behave within those fields. One can speak of the people-oriented nature of mechanics, engineering, and just about all fields of study. I find it a bit simplistic to categorize STEM as a whole as purely mechanics; it&#x27;s reductionist and frankly insulting.
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dcre将近 8 年前
This could have been one sentence long. &quot;He&#x27;s right! (I have a PhD.)&quot; No content.
jonssons将近 8 年前
exactly
UK-AL将近 8 年前
Please don&#x27;t flag the article if you simply disagree.<p>The key to changing minds is understanding the other side. Not shutting them out of the conversation.
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burner11将近 8 年前
Why is it that nobody wants to fix the gender gap in nursing?
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major505将近 8 年前
Welcome to the left. Where we are democratic, and suport free-speech, as long as agrees with our views. :)
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dsfjksdf将近 8 年前
If you are not bisexual or asexual, you are sexist by definition.
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mygodgoogle将近 8 年前
I&#x27;m very disappointed with Google and no longer hold the company in such high esteem as I once did.
ebola1717将近 8 年前
If all this science were the end all be all, the low level engineers would be men, and men with their evolutionary handicap for empathy would be none of the managers, leaders, designers, product managers. That&#x27;s how it is right?
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smrtinsert将近 8 年前
Cognitive differences observed in GENERAL != bad engineers for ALL.<p>The memo was a rambling incoherent mess.
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tlogan将近 8 年前
The sad thing is that people do not even understand why the memo is bad.<p>The problem: You cannot invoke science to tell somebody: I&#x27;m better than you. Period. That causes wars.
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