Fighting Neo-Nazis and the Future of Free Expression

233 点作者 generic_user将近 8 年前

26 条评论

"[W]e strongly believe that what GoDaddy, Google, and Cloudflare did here was dangerous. That’s because, even when the facts are the most vile, we must remain vigilant when platforms exercise these rights. Because Internet intermediaries, especially those with few competitors, control so much online speech, the consequences of their decisions have far-reaching impacts on speech around the world."Well said. I'm glad EFF is not burrying their heads in the sand and hiding behind the "but they're nazis!" Excuse.

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emmelaich将近 8 年前

There are many good quotes on freedom of speech to ponder.[1]I think my favourite is Mencken's.> The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.A close second is Wilde's:> “I may not agree with you, but I will defend to the death your right to make an ass of yourself.”[1] <a href="https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/tag/freedom-of-speech" rel="nofollow">https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/tag/freedom-of-speech</a>

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meri_dian将近 8 年前

This is how extremism spreads:1. A Reasonable Position is expressed, in this case - 'Nazi's are very bad'. The Reasonable Position often involves an Enemy that must be stopped. Most reasonable people will agree with the Reasonable Position.2. The Reasonable Position becomes the overriding factor in any situation that involves it. All other factors and considerations are dwarfed by it and forgotten.3. Because the Reasonable Position comes to dominate the thinking of the Extremist - who often means well - they come to believe one can only ever be for or against the Reasonable Position. There is no room for moderate positions that try to balance the Reasonable Position with other important considerations and values - in this case, freedom of speech.4. In order to show support for the Reasonable Position, third parties are forced to action in accordance with the world view of the Extremist. If they try to balance other considerations against the Reasonable Position, they are seen by the Extremist as sympathizing with the Enemy.5. The fervor of extremism charges through society, trampling on other values and considerations.Some historical examples:><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution</a>><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism</a>><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem_witch_trials" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem_witch_trials</a>

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CaptSpify将近 8 年前

I'm super proud to be a member of the EFF. It's hard to keep a clear head in emotionally tense times like these. It's groups like the EFF that help everyone.If you can: <a href="https://supporters.eff.org/donate" rel="nofollow">https://supporters.eff.org/donate</a>

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Pfhreak将近 8 年前

The takeaway from this for me is not, "Don't get rid of Nazis", but rather, "Have a clear criteria and process for when you will remove content. Follow that process."Great, 100% agreed with that. Be clear and up front about terms of service, and be clear and open when they are violated.That said, I'm not 100% agreed that "Whatever you use against Neo-Nazis will be used 'against the ones you love'." That's a slippery slope argument that I personally don't believe. Neo-nazis are such a different class of evil, that it's hard for me to see the same practices being used against someone who is not them.

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yarg将近 8 年前

This is a multifaceted debate; cloudflare is under no obligation what-so-ever to keep retain any customer - unless it has placed itself under a contractual obligation to do so.The neo-nazi sites themselves should in general not be interfered with from a governmental level - but there should be limitations of even this restriction, when it comes to the advocacy, planning and execution of violence.In a more general sense I see the silencing of free-speech on the internet as a call to move to a more decentralised structure - as per what seemed to be the original intent - we generally seem to be moving yet further away from such a structure; although there are a significant number of emerging distributed technologies - as yet they seem to be niche in their utilisation.(Somewhat tangentally, I see the free speech and public emergence of the now emboldened neo-nazis as somewhat a good thing, they were always there - but now they're in the public eye.)

cal5k将近 8 年前

It actually makes me incredibly optimistic about the future of humanity to know that such people exist. It's important to fight for the rights of all - you never know when your cause or beliefs will be in the crosshairs instead of a group as obviously vile as neo-nazis.

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ameister14将近 8 年前

I think we should examine the effectiveness of bans on speech r.e. limitation of the spread of an ideology.For example, according to the Southern Poverty Law Center (not a group with an incentive to deflate numbers), at its peak the National Alliance had 1,200 members. All together, there are a few thousand active Neo-Nazis in the United States.In contrast, let's take 2 countries where advocating Nazi ideology is illegal: Austria and Germany.In Austria, the Freedom Party, founded by a former SS officer, has 50,000 members, 13 seats in the Upper House (similar to the Senate in the US) and 38 seats in the lower house as well as 4 in the European Parliament.In Germany, the NPD received over 600,000 votes in the most recent election and now has a seat in the European Parliament.

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deckar01将近 8 年前

> SUSPENSION AND CANCELLATION. Google may in its sole discretion, suspend or cancel Registrant’s Registered Name registration (a) if Registrant breaches this Agreement (including a breach of any of the representations and warranties in Section 7); (b) to comply with a court order or other legal requirement; (c) as required by ICANN, a Registry Operator, or law enforcement; (d) to protect the integrity and stability of the Services; (e) if there was an error in the registration process for such Registered Name, or (f) if Registrant’s Account is disabled or terminated.<a href="https://payments.google.com/payments/apis-secure/get_legal_document?ldt=domainstos" rel="nofollow">https://payments.google.com/payments/apis-secure/get_legal_d...</a>I wonder which clause they cited to execute the suspension.

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xupybd将近 8 年前

"It’s unclear whether this is for a limited amount of time, or whether Google has decided to effectively take ownership of the dailystormer.com domain permanently"Wait, what, they can do this? So if I get Google to host my domain they can just take it at will? Given the value of some domains that's insane. Google must be on shaky legal ground here.

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jeffdavis将近 8 年前

"incite hate"That is a scary, clever manipulation of language. Inciting violence is an exception to free speech because it is directly linked to a specific violent result."Hate" is non-specific, and not an action at all. It often means nothing more than offending someone or violating some political correctness. Hate speech is and should be protected speech.

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tekromancr将近 8 年前

I really don't understand the resistance here. I have heard no arguments against no-platforming isis propaganda. Youtube, twitter, facebook all have a policy of removing such content. I don't really have a problem with white supremacists also being no-platformed. These are private entities, deciding for themselves that they refuse to be party to such content. Let the dipshits buy their own damn servers.Now, the minute either group is harassed or arrested by the government over things is when it becomes a problem. That is actual censorship, and should be resisted.

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nsnick将近 8 年前

"on the Internet, any tactic used now to silence neo-Nazis will soon be used against others, including people whose opinions we agree with"

sangnoir将近 8 年前

I'm amazed at how the HN's Libertarian streak gets subdued when discussing free speech (which only enjoins the government). Private individuals and corporations should be free to decide who they want to do business with (even if it's under duress of bad PR).When Brendan Eich was ousted[1] from Mozilla, I warned that the boycott threat set a bad precedent. The counter argument at the time was that "his donation wasn't free speech" and rights weren't negotiable. In the aftermath of 3 people losing their lives in Charlottesville, supporting the Daily Stormer is clearly Bad for Business™ - even if none of the companies are explicitly stating how commercially toxic DS has become.1. He was ousted, his resignation was a technicality

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narrator将近 8 年前

Even more disturbing to me is that Youtube has started banning UFO research channels like Steve Greer's CSETI. I don't really bother watching these channels and consider the UFO thing a bit of a quasi-religion, but they aren't inciting violence or hate against anybody.Has Google decided they are now the truth police? Is Google taking it upon themselves to be like the Chinese censorship bureaus except for the whole world? I think this shows that the hate speech censorship is a real slippery slope.

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tim333将近 8 年前

The Daily Stormer is still expressing itself freely at <a href="http://dstormer6em3i4km.onion/" rel="nofollow">http://dstormer6em3i4km.onion/</a> Latest featured story "Atari Promises Faggots It’ll Produce Homo Video Games." Does it really matter that Cloudflare dropped them? You have a right to free speech, not a right to be promoted by Cloudflare and Google.

nkristoffersen将近 8 年前

Don't we already block and shutdown Islamic terrorist sites? How are Nazi terrorist sites different?

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forthefuture将近 8 年前

If the EFF really wants to support free speech they could host the Daily Stormer and see what happens to their donations.It seems duplicitous to force someone else to bear the cost of facilitating toxicity.

generic_user将近 8 年前

We have to be steadfast to the idea that defending the free speech that you might find repulsive is defending your own right to free speech.

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rev_null将近 8 年前

I understand the argument that they're making, but the EFF also offers a browser extension to block adware (privacy badger). Is hate speech somehow more justifiable than adware?

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dgudkov将近 8 年前

The internet needs a constitution.

cup将近 8 年前

Should all forms of speech be defended and accessible in a public domain?Should instructions on how to make explosives be accessible and defended?

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Raz2将近 8 年前

Uneducated people should be protected from ideas that are proven to be bad. Looks like America just can't learn lessons like Sandy Hook or this one.

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tchaffee将近 8 年前

Google is rightly protected from government interference of their right to exercise free speech just like all individuals and companies in the US.The EFF is confusing a free speech problem with a monopoly problem. One would hope they aren't suggesting that the government be allowed to interfere with Google's speech.So if they aren't, they are basically saying "bad boy, shame on you" to Google and others. It will have zero impact.The right way to solve this problem is to name the actual problem and forget about free speech: monopoly. Break up Google and these other companies and problem solved.

unityByFreedom将近 8 年前

I prefer to stand against groups that promote violence.> CANTWELL: "a lot more people are gonna die before we're done here" [1]I'm pretty sure the Daily Stormer said something similar. I don't need that crap in my backyard.[1] <a href="https://youtu.be/P54sP0Nlngg?t=20m51s" rel="nofollow">https://youtu.be/P54sP0Nlngg?t=20m51s</a>

dredmorbius将近 8 年前

I've sided with the EFF on many, many, many causes.I've sided against Google on numerous causes.The EFF are wrong. Google is correct.And yes, the reasons are complicated. But "slippery slope" is a facile fallacy.Ultimately, society can, does, and must defend itself from attacks. Including attacks on the underprivileged (of whom the Fascists and Nazis at question here are not).The history of media and new-media utilisation in demagoguery, totalitarianism, mob incitement and rule, and fascism is rich. It should give strong cause to pause to those who've sung (and believed) the narrative of the all-positive, peace-and-harmony bringing Internet. As I long had.And am now pausing.Epistemic systems gain significance when they can be abused for personal, political, nationalistic, or fascistic gain. That was the insight of a friend of mine some months back. Call it "the paradox of epistemic systems".This includes Hacker News itself, which seems to have quite the fascist problem, and an unwillingness, at the moderator level itself, to face that, over concerns of "dignity".Those concerns are very, very, desperately and sadly misplaced.<a href="https://www.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/5wg0hp/when_epistemic_systems_gain_social_and_political/" rel="nofollow">https://www.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/5wg0hp/when_ep...</a><a href="https://www.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/6ufeu1/does_hacker_news_have_a_fascismdenial_problem/" rel="nofollow">https://www.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/6ufeu1/does_ha...</a>

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