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Rod Vagg's statement on the request to be removed from the Node.js CTC

214 点作者 krlkv超过 7 年前

31 条评论

orless超过 7 年前
What I&#x27;m completely missing in this discussion of Code of Conduct violation is a specific list of which actions violated which clauses in this Code of Conduct.<p>I see a list of complaints, but for an outsider it is really hard to follow why these actions are considered to be CoC violations.<p>Take this, for instance:<p>&quot;In [moderation repository discussion], Rod’s first action was to apologize to a contributor who had been repeatedly moderated. Rod did not discuss the issue with other members of the CTC&#x2F;TSC first. The result undermined the moderation process as it was occurring. It also undercut the authority as moderators of other CTC&#x2F;TSC members.&quot;<p>Do you know how this reads? A case is being made against a &quot;toxic&quot; person who &quot;repeatedly breaks CoC&quot; and the first complaint against him is that he <i>apologized to a contributor</i>? Really? I just don&#x27;t get this.
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wakeywakeywakey超过 7 年前
Having reviewed the relevant tweets&#x2F;GitHub issues&#x2F;blog posts, I feel most of the noise is generated by people who make it their mission to find things about which to be outraged.<p>The NodeJS brand has the momentum necessary to build great things. If they squander it by cry-wolf-forking every time there is an internal disagreement, another JS engine (e.g. Chakra) will take the helm.
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andrewguenther超过 7 年前
&gt; I have submitted myself to our Code of Conduct as a participant in this project. I have been involved in the application of our Code of Conduct. But I do not accept it as a sacred text that is above critique or even discussion.<p>This, to me, is one of the most important lines of his response. I feel like critiques of CoCs and other related documents and processes coming from a white male are often interpreted as hostile. I would consider myself an ally, but I am afraid to weigh in on these kinds of discussions because differing opinions are so often manipulated into &quot;hate&quot; and &quot;toxicity.&quot;
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bjt2n3904超过 7 年前
This has echoes of Title IX proceedings. From the account above.<p>&gt; Some time ago I received notification via email that there are complaints against me. No details were provided and I was informed that I would neither receive those details or be involved in the whatever process was to take place. Further, TSC members were not allowed to speak to me directly about these matters, including my work colleagues also on the TSC. I was never provided with an opportunity to understand the specific charges against me or be involved in any discussions on this topic from that point onward.<p>From the article below, [1]<p>&gt; Right away, the accused is cautioned about confidentiality: s&#x2F;he is warned not to discuss the pending complaint with colleagues or students. The accused will only learn of the accusations against them when s&#x2F;he meets face-to-face with the local Title IX enforcement squad.<p>Kangaroo court.<p>[1] <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;quillette.com&#x2F;2017&#x2F;08&#x2F;24&#x2F;survived-title-ix-star-chamber&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;quillette.com&#x2F;2017&#x2F;08&#x2F;24&#x2F;survived-title-ix-star-chamb...</a>
ChuckMcM超过 7 年前
One of the things that is useful about due process is the right to confront your accusers and cross examine them under oath. Without those rights, it is difficult, if not impossible, to see justice done.<p>Too often these important elements are missing, and Rod&#x27;s statement &quot;At no point have I been provided with an opportunity to answer to these complaints, correct the factual errors contained in them (see below), apologize and make amends where possible, or provide additional context that may further explain accusations against me.&quot; suggests that this lack of due process is present in this case as well.<p>When &quot;Somebody complained about you in a serious way, but we can&#x27;t say who, or the substance of the complaint.&quot; is the standard against which the process is measured, then it leaves itself open for abuse.
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chis超过 7 年前
It&#x27;s insane that we might reach a point where people install different branches of a project based on their political leanings...<p>I think the main takeaway here is that a Code of Conduct, while valuable, has to be treated carefully. A lot of these projects agreed to a Code of Conduct just to appease a certain faction of their devs, and are now seeing that it can be used against them.
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rdtsc超过 7 年前
It was pretty hard to discern what happened. A lot of text and veiled insinuations. He is how far I got:<p>It was this article tweeted by Rod:<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;quillette.com&#x2F;2017&#x2F;07&#x2F;18&#x2F;neurodiversity-case-free-speech&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;quillette.com&#x2F;2017&#x2F;07&#x2F;18&#x2F;neurodiversity-case-free-spe...</a><p>Which was noticed by a member of the community:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;captainsafia&#x2F;status&#x2F;887782785221615618" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;captainsafia&#x2F;status&#x2F;887782785221615618</a><p>Does that describe it? Maybe someone has a more clear summary<p>One thing I noticed is that Node.js community seems to be followed by drama. Maybe it&#x27;s just something I misunderstood, but I have observed Python, Erlang, Elixir, other communities around specific projects and libraries and I just don&#x27;t see these many scandals there. In fact at one point when I reject Node.js as viable platform, the community scandals and seeming immaturity was one of top factors. What is it about this community that seems to attract this kind of behavior? And note I am not taking any sides in this case, as it is not clear what happened, it is just it looks messy to an outside developer looking in.
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_Marak_超过 7 年前
It really makes me sad to think of the amount of hours Rod has spent on this instead of writing free software for all of us to use.<p>Node got really popular, and with that came a whole group of people who are more interested in social justice instead of actual technical work.<p>NPM is partially to blame for employing most of the people who are pushing to remove Rod.
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bhouston超过 7 年前
Too much drama and polemics. My god he spent a lot of time on that response -- like hours.<p>If you are writing long emails dealing with responses to drama, you need to move on. Not because you are at fault but the whole situation is screwed up and not worth your time. This is not a win-win situation, but an everyone lose situation.<p>It means you and others are in the muck. Once you get a bunch of these accusations and long polemical post flying around it is nearly impossible to figure out who is right and who is wrong. The way people try to win here is ultra long polemical posts, secret discussions, accusations, character assassinations, etc. Non of which is at all productive.<p>Being in the muck is a huge waste of time and energy for everyone. Find something that doesn&#x27;t involve so much drama, life is short.<p>I think one rule in software development is that once you are engaging in polemics, especially many hours of it per day, and not technical matters, something is sick about the situation -- get out of it.
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bsder超过 7 年前
This story actually helped crystallize why I have been quite so knee jerk against things like Codes of Conduct.<p>The whole point of a Code of Conduct, Homeowner&#x27;s Association, or anything else which attempts to codify politeness, common sense, respect, etc. is to be used as a bureaucratic bludgeon against <i>someone</i>. And, while those may get put in place to get used <i>against</i> a single egregiously bad person, they then stick around to get used <i>by</i> the far more numerous petty political jerks.
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gred超过 7 年前
We need an updated Waldorf Statement [1].<p><i>&quot;Members of the Node.js community deplore the action of the CTC men who have been cited for contempt by the Foundation board. We do not desire to prejudge their legal rights, but their actions have been a disservice to this project and have impaired their usefulness to the industry.&quot;</i><p><i>&quot;We will forthwith discharge or suspend without compensation those in our employ, and will not re-employ any of these men until such a time as he is acquitted on Twitter or has purged himself of contempt and declares under oath that he is not a Meritocracist.&quot;</i><p><i>&quot;On the broader issue of alleged sexist and non-inclusive elements in Silicon Valley, our members are likewise prepared to take positive action.&quot;</i><p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Waldorf_Statement" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Waldorf_Statement</a>
nawgszy超过 7 年前
I don&#x27;t particularly understand the claims against this man, but as this organization and its discussions happen (almost) entirely online [is this correct?], surely it must be incredibly obvious whether or not allegations brought against him are true or not?
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zbentley超过 7 年前
Possibly off-topic: this is why GitHub, and GitLab, are both problematic platforms for online collaboration and community-building.<p>There was once a list of grievances against this person here <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;nodejs&#x2F;TSC&#x2F;issues&#x2F;310" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;nodejs&#x2F;TSC&#x2F;issues&#x2F;310</a>. That list is no longer present; it has been redacted, and a reason for that redaction has been posted.<p>As someone who has zero context for this issue, this makes it very hard for me to understand.<p>This redaction is not something that can happen easily with source code. Comments and other &quot;metadata&quot; can be edited, permanently and without a view into history. That makes it very hard to trace the genealogy of discussions.<p>Sure, you can rewrite git history and push, but that&#x27;s a) less durable, because someone might have a fork&#x2F;copy of the repo, and b) much less common by convention.<p>I really don&#x27;t like the tendency of GitHub&#x2F;GitLab as platforms to encourage the &quot;facebook style&quot; of content authorship (what you posted is what you posted . . . until someone edits, it, then it <i>never was</i> that in the eyes of recent arrivals).<p>Edit: I will probably accidentally type markdown into HN comments until the day I die.
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thwd超过 7 年前
Shame how such a cool project as node.js can drown in political fingerpointing. The only measurement that counts (in my opinion) is cold hard code contributions.
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avaer超过 7 年前
Are long-winded quarrels and dysfunctions unique to node core, or is node core just transparent in documenting the making of the sausage?
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par超过 7 年前
Node community is going to argue its way into obscurity.
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dmitrij超过 7 年前
It&#x27;s been quite a journey from a &quot;great babbling bazaar of differing agendas and approaches&quot;[1] to this mess. Bureaucracy always wins in the end.<p>[1] &lt;<a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.catb.org&#x2F;esr&#x2F;writings&#x2F;cathedral-bazaar&#x2F;cathedral-bazaar&#x2F;index.html#catbmain&gt;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.catb.org&#x2F;esr&#x2F;writings&#x2F;cathedral-bazaar&#x2F;cathedral-...</a>
tomcam超过 7 年前
A code of conduct without transparency or due process seems more than dangerous to me. It is the stuff of kangaroo courts and star chambers.
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gcoda超过 7 年前
It is weird. But a lot of times &quot;toxic&quot; people need real protection. It is easy to get accused but not every one can argue or explain their personal views like Rod. Or even have strength to deal with it and not over react or get panic attack<p>I am wondering about introvert geeks accused of &quot;toxic behavior&quot; silently sitting in the corner.
mikerathbun超过 7 年前
The Node community seems to have more issues like this than others. This feels similar to the Nodevember drama where Douglas Crockford was uninvited to speak because a small group of people felt uncomfortable. What that community needs to understand is that speaking takes a lot of work and guts to do. Professionals are busy people and it’s a privilege to hear experts present. Same goes for contributing time and expertise to open source projects. If it becomes common to force people out for perceived wrong think than all that will be left are codes of conducts instead of codes of systems.
geofft超过 7 年前
A bit of a thought experiment for myself: suppose that Rod were as terrible as the worst possible claims made against him. (I am confident he&#x27;s not.) Suppose he were actively, consciously hoping to deceive and harm the Node community. (I am also confident he&#x27;s not.) What sort of statement would he write? How much would it look like this one?
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DannyBee超过 7 年前
I have never understood why open source projects have taken to trying to cargo cult dispute resolution and due process.<p>They don&#x27;t have the training, resources, or infrastructure to make it work.<p>Really, they should just be realistic, and say &quot;we&#x27;re gonna look at what people say, make a completely arbitrary decision, and stick with it&quot;.<p>Because that&#x27;s what is really happening.
Rjevski超过 7 年前
Does anyone have a TLDR about this story? I haven&#x27;t had the time to follow all the drama.
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mattkrea超过 7 年前
Not surprised to see James Snell prominently involved in this. I&#x27;ve had bad feelings about this since the io.js group joined the foundation. This is upsetting having followed (and used) the project for so long.
PrimHelios超过 7 年前
I&#x27;ve tried keeping up with what&#x27;s been happening with Node, but I&#x27;m completely lost here. Could anyone summarize what&#x27;s been happening or point me to a summarization?
orless超过 7 年前
As a thought experiment imagine your manager asks you about the new node.js fork and whether you should switch to it. What would you say?
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danso超过 7 年前
I didn&#x27;t know who Mr. Vagg was or his role in Node before reading his post, and without looking at posts&#x2F;tweets from the people who opposed him, or having a clear grasp of the controversy, I still appreciated that he put the time toward a lengthy rebuttal. Writing a lot of words, for any reason, is a decent time investment. And it takes significantly more time to make it reasonably accommodating and (at least from my non-informed viewpoint) not obviously antagonistic. Whatever the merit of the arguments&#x2F;complaints, I can at least appreciate that this is something important to him.<p>Since the primary complaints against him involve details that he does not specify (and may not be easily findable after a lot of digging), I was interested in the 3rd listed complaint, which was about how he allegedly conducted himself on Twitter:<p>&gt; <i>Most recently Rod tweeted in support of an inflammatory anti-Code-of-Conduct article. As a perceived leader in the project, it can be difficult for outsiders to separate Rod’s opinions from that of the project. Knowing the space he is participating in and the values of our community, Rod should have predicted the kind of response this tweet received. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;rvagg&#x2F;status&#x2F;887652116524707841*" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;rvagg&#x2F;status&#x2F;887652116524707841*</a><p>Point 1 of his rebuttal:<p>&gt; </i>The post I linked to was absolutely not an anti-Code-of-Conduct article. It was an article written by an Associate Professor of Evolutionary Psychology at the University of New Mexico, discussing free speech in general and suggesting a case against speech codes in American university campuses. In sharing this, I hoped to encourage meaningful discussion regarding the possible shortcomings of some standard Code of Conduct language. My intent was not to suggest that the Node.js project should not have a Code of Conduct in place.*<p>Point 4:<p>&gt; <i>To re-state for further clarity, I have not made a case against Codes of Conduct in general, but rather, would like to see ongoing discussion about how such social guidelines could be improved upon, as they clearly have impact on open source project health.</i><p>Here&#x27;s his Tweet and its reply chain: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;rvagg&#x2F;status&#x2F;887652116524707841" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;rvagg&#x2F;status&#x2F;887652116524707841</a><p>I don&#x27;t think the tweet rises to the level of demanding his removal. I don&#x27;t know Vagg or his Twitter account so I don&#x27;t know what his rhetorical style is (and I tend to give everyone the benefit of the doubt that Twitter is part-performance). But I didn&#x27;t find his rebuttal to be convincing. It&#x27;s not just that he tweeted out an article that may have annoyed&#x2F;offended people. It&#x27;s the way his tweet replies are what you&#x27;d expect from someone who just doesn&#x27;t like CoC&#x27;s, but is too politically savvy to say it, e.g.<p>&quot;<i>And folks who think there&#x27;s a possibility that CoCs may not be achieving their stated aims? No room for discussion on that?</i>&quot;<p>&quot;<i>I accept that, but there are surely valid concerns about their current implementation that could lead to improved solutions</i>&quot;<p>&quot;<i>If we&#x27;re talking evidence, I&#x27;d love to see some solid data on the use of CoCs, it doesn&#x27;t exist, we just have to have faith.</i>&quot;<p>&quot;<i>But I have witnessed the negatives, again and again, the most tragic are against those who don&#x27;t naturally fit in</i>&quot;<p>Even accepting that Twitter is just not ideal for substantive debate, it&#x27;s hard to not feel he&#x27;s being less than upfront. He wants an open discussion about CoC&#x27;s. But every tweet has the tone of <i>&quot;But maybe CoCs can be bad? Why isn&#x27;t there data? etc etc&quot;</i>. For the sake of argument, I&#x27;ll happily assume his premise -- that CoCs may be inherently flawed and lead to the injustice they purport to fight -- but <i>why doesn&#x27;t he describe an actual example</i>? Calling for &quot;open discussion&quot; and then just retorting with points so vague that no one can honestly discuss them is one of the most annoying things to see. e.g. <i>&quot;But there are surely valid concerns about their current implementation that could lead to improved solutions&quot;</i> If you think this surely must be the case, <i>why don&#x27;t you kick off the discussion with just one of those things you&#x27;ve considered</i>?<p>Back to his posted rebuttal on Github. I&#x27;m glad that he pointed out his record for supporting Node.js&#x27;s CoC and using CoC in his own projects. But when he says:<p>- <i>&quot;I have never made a case against the Node.js Code of Conduct.&quot;</i><p>- But on Twitter, he implies that people aren&#x27;t skeptical enough of CoC&#x27;s and that he has &quot;witnessed the negatives, again and again&quot;.<p>Is his lack of criticism of Node.js CoC (&quot;I have never made a case&quot;) because Node does <i>it right</i>? Or is it because he doesn&#x27;t think it&#x27;s worth it for him (in his position) to critique Node.js CoC (which is an understandable position). His rebuttal, when looking at the source material, doesn&#x27;t feel direct enough to me. How can he claim that &quot;the post I linked to was absolutely not an anti-Code-of-Conduct article&quot; when the article starts off with:<p><i>&quot;In this article, I’ll explore the science of neurodiversity, and how campus speech codes and restrictive speech norms impose impossible expectations on the social sensitivity, cultural awareness, verbal precision, and self-control of many neurodivergent people.&quot;</i><p>Concludes with:<p><i>&quot;Campus speech codes discriminate against neurominorities.&quot;<p>Followed by:<p></i>&quot;In a future article, I’ll outline a legal strategy to use the ADA to eliminate campus speech codes that discriminate against neurominorities.&quot;*<p>Reading the entire post a couple times over, if the professor believes that there are code of conducts that are not inherently discriminatory, he doesn&#x27;t cite any evidence of their existence, or make an attempt to outline what an acceptable CoC looks like.<p>----<p>Putting aside all the other complaints leveled at Vagg -- not because I think they&#x27;re unimportant, but because there&#x27;s not enough info for outsiders to have an informed opinion -- I sincerely hope that Vagg and Node.js&#x27;s governance can come to an amicable and transparent resolution at least on whether Node.js CoC is as good as it can be -- which seems reasonable if Vagg&#x27;s public record of supporting it comes from his personal principles.<p>I do believe that CoC&#x27;s are both well-intentioned and worth fighting for. And I also agree that they are and will always be a hard problem, because they attempt to address and mitigate hard problems. I don&#x27;t know what the resolution to Node.js&#x27;s conflict is, but the last thing we need is yet another fucking blowup in which the entire debate gets reduced to the lazy polemic of &quot;Objective programmers yelled at by SJW soft scientists&quot;
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feduzi超过 7 年前
What is wrong with Node.js governance (except Rod&#x27;s case)? Is there any list of such problems?
dmitrygr超过 7 年前
He is clear, logical, and reasonable.<p>Poor guy, they will eat him alive.
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danjoc超过 7 年前
My momma had a way of dealing with these sorts of arguments. Everyone was punished. Look at these petty people. They all seem to have missed out on that sort of parenting.<p>&quot;Rod has his opinion on CoC and you have yours. Now play nice or you both go to bed early with no TV.&quot;<p>I believe Rod and his detractors are all earning a different sort of punishment though. Who wants to hire a bunch of drama queens like this? It&#x27;s too bad salary data isn&#x27;t public like tweets. It would be interesting to see exactly how much internet drama negatively impacts a person&#x27;s lifetime earning potential.
GenericsMotors超过 7 年前
TLDR: core contributor displeases blue-haired SF nobodies, who fail to evict him from the project.<p>They proceed to throw a temper-tantrum and create a useless fork which so far has done nothing but bike-shedding.
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