Would WordPress Sue The Maker Of Thesis WordPress Theme? - Mixergy Interview

Some choice quotes from Chris Pearson in this interview:<p>"This can't be understated or just glossed over as if it's not true. My position at the market is pretty much at the top. I'm the most visible person in this space so everyone's gunning for me. Everyone wants a piece."<p>"There's no resolving this. Either you sue me or you don't. Or you continue to talk, or you don't."<p>"I've been arguably one of the top 3 most important figures in the history wordpress."<p>Regarding GPL enforcement: "When I was in college in Georgia it was apparently illegal to get a blow job. But that's one of those laws that's never enforced. So that brings up a valid question. What kind of law is it if it's unenforceable?"<p>"At this time I feel like my method of operation is exactly congruent with my feelings about everything."<p>"I don't have time for rhetoric, I have time for action."<p>"There's no incentive that incentivises me to do anything. All of my decisions come from within."<p>Also, he calls the GPL a flimsy and unenforceable license. I agree with everyone calling Matt gracious and patient. My respect for Matt shot up after listening to this.

I've been spending a lot of time today wondering why Matt cares so much about what license Chris uses - it seems like no real harm is being done to either party here, but both parties are digging in their heels so strongly I find it hard to believe it's purely a philosophical difference.<p>I just had a thought, and I'd like to sanity check it. I don't know Matt or Chris, but I use both Wordpress and Thesis every day, so consider this 100% speculation based on my experience:<p>1. I use Thesis to manage almost all of my Wordpress sites because it makes my work significantly easier - Thesis extends WP in many useful ways that aren't built into WP core. I'm capable of doing it all myself in the code, but it's much easier to handle it in Thesis, which I think is a major reason why it's so popular.<p>2. If Thesis adopted the GPL, that means the code is open to be distributed and reapplied by anyone for free. That means Thesis features could legally be added to WP Core <i>without paying Chris royalties</i>. In Matt's eyes, that would be great - it would make WP better by incorporating many new features that users have demonstrated they like/want/need. (I'm pretty sure some former WP plugins have been added to core over time in this way.)<p>3. If Thesis' features are incorporated into WP Core, Chris' very profitable business evaporates almost immediately - the value is in the added functionality, not the stylesheet, so there'd be no reason for anyone to purchase Thesis. That means if Thesis is forced to adopt the GPL, Pearson stands to lose <i>big time</i>.<p>4. If Thesis' commercial license is legal (which the post at <a href="http://perpetualbeta.com/release/2009/12/why-the-gplderivative-work-debate-doesnt-matter-for-wordpress-themes/" rel="nofollow">http://perpetualbeta.com/release/2009/12/why-the-gplderivati...</a> makes a strong case for, depending on the definition of "derivative work" when it comes to software), any IP from Thesis incorporated into WP Core without permission or royalties would violate Chris' rights and potentially generate a valid IP infringement lawsuit.<p>5. Based on the tone of the conversation so far, I don't think Chris would ever give Matt (or anyone else) permission to use IP from Thesis in WP Core without a massive royalty payment.<p>6. If Matt wants to have the freedom to incorporate Thesis features into WP Core, but doesn't want to pay Chris royalties, he'd have a vested interest in publicly pressuring Chris into adopting the GPL, which is what Matt appears to be doing. Chris finds that offensive, so he's telling Matt to fuck off and sue him if he really wants to push the issue. To Chris, a lawsuit (which will be easier to defend because his business partner, Brian Clark, is an attorney) is a small price to pay to prevent losing millions in revenue, and he believes Matt will lose in the end.<p>Again, total speculation, but this is the only reason I can think of right now they'd go after each other so strongly. Thoughts?

Trying my best not to sound rude, but Chris Pearson sounds extremely obnoxious. His analogies are all over the place and very defensive; most likely because he realizes that he is on the wrong end of the debate.<p>The license explicitly says it has to be GPL. End of discussion. He is making up his own rules!

Chris Pearson's defense is thin at best: Switching to GPL wouldn't affect my business at all! It just rubs me the wrong way!<p>Additionally, he comes across as a real jerk.<p>EDIT: After listening to the whole thing I am appalled by Chris Pearson's lack of understanding about licensing and his offensive attitude.<p>Matt Mullenweg deserves an award for being so gracious and patient.

From what I've seen of the portion of the GPL in question, the definition of "derivative work" is subject to interpretation, in my mind. Something for the lawyers to figure out.<p>My 2 cents: Myself, I'm not convinced that a theme is a derivative work. Isn't the API documentation public? Is it not -theoretically- (although impractical) possible to create a theme for Wordpress without having Wordpress itself? (Having said that, it would also be possible to write a non-GPL blogging engine that uses the same API without seeing the Wordpress code) Also, since the theme isn't distributed with Wordpress, I personally think it's harder to argue that it's a derivative piece of work, since none of the original Wordpress code is altered.<p>A better source of information from a legal perspective is the guy at perpetualbeta.com, who delved into this a few months ago with a couple of posts:<p><a href="http://perpetualbeta.com/release/2009/11/why-the-gpl-does-not-apply-to-premium-wordpress-themes/" rel="nofollow">http://perpetualbeta.com/release/2009/11/why-the-gpl-does-no...</a> <a href="http://perpetualbeta.com/release/2009/12/why-the-gplderivative-work-debate-doesnt-matter-for-wordpress-themes/" rel="nofollow">http://perpetualbeta.com/release/2009/12/why-the-gplderivati...</a><p>From what I understand, he -is- a lawyer, and he has done intellectual property work, so his opinion, at least on the surface, would seem to have some weight. His position that "fair use" moots the GPL argument is quite interesting.

I guess I'm the only one who saw Matt as the obnoxious one in that conversation? He kept putting words in Chris' mouth, playing slap-fight, and making snarky statements like, "Oh, I'll be sure to consult you in the future before I say anything." And the worst was when he said that "literally the whole legal community except for one guy in Florida" agrees with his interpretation of the GPL. That's just ignorant and irresponsible. About as bad as citing three clearly biased pro-GPL organizations as your sources for why you're right.<p>Look, I agree that Chris probably overstated his position in the WP community. It probably wasn't the smartest thing to call himself one of the top 3 most influential people in WP. However, I feel that his reasons for not wanting to go GPL are legitimate and for some reason Matt can't seem to understand that Chris is making a stand on principle here, not just revenue. I also understand his frustration. He's getting pounded left and right, sometimes with vicious personal attacks, mainly based on Matt's specious arguments. He's fed up, he's tired of the talk, and he wants Matt/WP to take action if they really care that much about it.<p>As far as I am concerned, if they really believe Chris is in violation of the license, WP can and should take action to try to shut down Chris if he doesn't comply, including legal action. They are fully within their rights to do that. But please, don't just sit back and spew half-truths and try to tear down the guy's reputation. As the old saying goes, if you're going to talk the talk, you should walk the walk.

"However, I think any astute economic analysis of economic systems of the way businesses and economies actually work would very quickly notice that a GPL does some very inorganic things to what are otherwise organic systems. So, from a systemic standpoint, on a systemic level, I disagree with the way the GPL perpetuates economies."<p>What on earth does that even mean? Also, he's one of the top three most important people by his own admission. Not any of the people who actually write the software that allows him to have a business.

What's up with that esoteric rant about systems by Chris? What the hell is that guy talking about? Sounds like Sarah Palin.

Chris misinterprets GPL and fails to give valid argument. He even comes off as Sarah Palin of the WordPress community.

Matt, much much respect for acting like a true gentleman and staying calm, you showed Chris what he is really like by letting him make a fool of himself!

Wow, the amount of ignorance displayed here is significant. It's painful just listening to it, and the blatant double think -- I'm protecting my rights by disregarding your rights...

I gotta say, I was in the audience for this and it was stunning to hear. If you have not listened to the full audio it is well worth the listen. Huge props to Andrew for doing awesome moderation. This whole thing went down because his booked guest canceled so Andrew moderated this very heated discussion on the fly.

Matt Mullenweg is, in general, the nicest person in the world and if you can actually find a point of contention with him then you are doing something wrong.

I'm trying to see the practical reasons of why NOT to use the GPL in this specific case. If people are going to steal thesis they will steal it. GPL doesn't change that. Here's what I want yo know: how many people has chris asked to stop illegally distributing thesis? This is interesting to me as I'm releasing something very cool re: wordpress themes next week.

I don't understand why just because something requires Wordpress to work it is a derivative work? Surely anything designed to work on any platform would be a derivative work by that argument? The GPL talks about containing the original Program, not requiring it.<p>Looking at the quote below from the Software Freedom Law Center, if you replace "PHP" with "VBA" and "Wordpress" with "Excel" it would imply that all Excel macros are derivative works of Excel and so only Microsoft can distribute them.<p>The following is taken from <a href="http://wordpress.org/news/2009/07/themes-are-gpl-too/" rel="nofollow">http://wordpress.org/news/2009/07/themes-are-gpl-too/</a>, bits in [] are my addition:<p><i>The PHP[VBA] elements, taken together, are clearly derivative of WordPress[Excel] code. The template[macro] is loaded via the include()[whatever] function. Its contents are combined with the WordPress[Excel] code in memory to be processed by PHP[VBA] along with (and completely indistinguishable from) the rest of WordPress[Excel]. The PHP[VBA] code consists largely of calls to WordPress[Excel] functions and sparse, minimal logic to control which WordPress[Excel] functions are accessed and how many times they will be called. They are derivative of WordPress[Excel] because every part of them is determined by the content of the WordPress[Excel] functions they call. As works of authorship, they are designed only to be combined with WordPress[Excel] into a larger work.</i>

I'm like Chris. I get really emotional and passionate when I argue. ...and that's when I end up sticking my foot in my mouth.<p>A mentor sat me down and told me, "Look, don't let your emotions drive your logic. Choose when to be mad. So that when you're mad, people will see you're making a point by choosing to be mad."<p>Matt is a PR agency dream. He calm, cool, and collected. He is a frickin pro in this exchange and it's hard to side with Chris when he sounds like a buffoon.

Chris Pearson generally is quite the ass. Try submitting any comment that in any way mildly suggests he might be wrong to his blog - it gets deleted immediately.

Haven't seen the interview but I'll give my $0.02 here.<p>I use WordPress and just started using Thesis, I think it's a well designed product, albeit a bit simple, but does that it supposed to do really well. It's a nice theme, and very easy to configure either from the WP UI or via the filters/actions. It definitely extends WordPress nicely. It's by far my favorite theme and I plan on using it on my projects (and I must've tried a million themes).<p>Now, if Thesis becomes open source, you can forget about quality, premium themes. Without monetary incentive, people won't rise up to create a good theme, and believe me, I checked WP themes, and most them are just crap.<p>Second, what's the fuss? Thesis is part of the WP eco-system, and its a mutual relationship. The more Thesis grows, the more WP grows. I'm sure he has his moral views, etc, but if someone wants to create a premium product (not using WP's code) and charge for it, let them do it.

From my understanding, only the code that interacts with the Wordpress method calls would be subject to GPL. You can abstract out the code that is not dependent upon Wordpress and avoid GPL overall.<p>An example of this is using RESTful APIs in a cloud environment, where your logic runs on an entirely different server.<p>Another example is to imagine a plugin that integrates Microsoft Outlook with Wordpress. Would Outlook then be subject to GPL? No. But, the code that sits between Wordpress and Outlook probably would be.

Themes are GPL too: (Interesting read)<p><a href="http://wordpress.org/news/2009/07/themes-are-gpl-too/" rel="nofollow">http://wordpress.org/news/2009/07/themes-are-gpl-too/</a>

If it's just function calls to the Wordpress code, I still can't see how it can be considered derivative. He also does not distribute Wordpress along with his theme. It's the user's job to put them together. This to me means it's separate and not derivative.<p>This just exemplifies the viral nature of the GPL and why businesses need to seriously consider using any code that involves the license.<p>This entire situation is a little hypocritical to me (for HN). Whenever there is an article about the piratebay (or piracy for that matter), there is usually a barrage of comments about how piracy is okay, it helps the content provider (because it's getting more usage), and it doesn't hurt or harm the original author.<p>Now that it involves the GPL (a person defending their copyright/license ownership..just like the record and movie industries), the majority here are singing a different tune. This just means that it has nothing to do with what's right and wrong, but political ideology.

They talk about CSS, JS and Images being excluded from the Wordpress GPL. Isn't this 99% of what most themes are made of?<p>What Chris has is not a theme but more of a dynamic theme generator.<p>What he should do is make Thesis additionally compatible with another CMS/Blogging tool so that the claims about Thesis delivering nothing but a blank page without Wordpress will no longer be true.<p>I appreciate the work of the open source community and donate to projects that I use most often but I also fully support Chris in being able to make a choice as to what license he wants to apply to his software.

This is pretty interesting, someone did a detailed analysis of GPLed code found inside of Thesis:<p><a href="http://drewblas.com/2010/07/15/an-analysis-of-gpled-code-in-thesis/" rel="nofollow">http://drewblas.com/2010/07/15/an-analysis-of-gpled-code-in-...</a>

I have not checked. Do other CMS projects force the GPL license on themes?

Guys, it's important for you to not frame your opinion solely on this interview. Take a look at Matt's tweets prior to this as well as his comments elsewhere. He's far from a gentleman or patient.

I'm listening to this while posting this question, but if Matt is correct, does that mean Thesis and therefore all wordpress themes must be available for free?

You cant fight against open source. The masses will always side with open source. But I can't blame Chris Pearson for not wanting to mess with his cash flow. Chris needs to really start thinking Legacy &#62; Currency.