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Index Investing Makes Markets and Economies More Efficient (2016)

156 点作者 songeater超过 7 年前

15 条评论

cft超过 7 年前
I always thought that the role of the stock market is the collective intelligence of a large pool of investors, that allocates resources to the most effective or highest performing businesses. Index investing is a blunt instrument that does not allow investors to resource-allocate on the fine-grained individual business level. In the best case, it's more like the Soviet central planning, where a handful of people selecting which stocks comprise an index do most of the financial planning. In the worst case, it causes bubbles- the only decision power there is buy/sell , the detailed microeconomic information about individual businesses is almost irrelevant to the investors.
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lend000超过 7 年前
This could not be more wrong and it&#x27;s discouraging to see it on the front page of HN -- index investing exerts a normalizing pressure on the prices of assets, which is rarely supported by the underlying values of the companies.<p>This is unlikely to be a popular opinion amongst passive investors, but day traders and market makers are responsible for making economies for efficient and providing price discovery (if they make profits) by reducing the spread and reducing volatility. Traders who lose money have the opposite effect -- they make assets more volatile by pushing up tops and pushing down bottoms.<p>Active long term value investors also contribute to positive price discovery and reduce volatility (if they make money) for the same reasons, but on a different time scale.
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fallingfrog超过 7 年前
This guy is making all kinds of assumptions to get his results that can&#x27;t possibly be true. On a first read it looks like he&#x27;s assuming:<p>Stocks in the passive investment category stay that way forever- they are <i>never</i> sold at any price.<p>Money never enters or leaves the stock market<p>Companies never issue or buy back stock.<p>I mean with bat<i></i><i></i> crazy assumptions like these, you can come up with any conclusions you want!
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cs702超过 7 年前
The OP defines an &quot;efficient&quot; market as one in which active investors cannot consistently outperform the average by selectively picking individual securities. In this regard, the OP is absolutely right that index investing is making markets &quot;efficient,&quot; because active and passive managers, when considered as two distinct aggregate groups, must necessarily earn the same average return before fees, expenses, and frictional costs.<p>HOWEVER, that doesn&#x27;t necessarily mean the growth of index investing makes markets more <i>accurate</i> at pricing securities.<p>There&#x27;s NO evidence of that.<p>Maybe the growth of index investing is doing the opposite: making markets LESS ACCURATE at pricing securities.<p>Indeed, by many measures, US stock prices are looking positively FROTHY these days.[1][2][3]<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;2017&#x2F;09&#x2F;15&#x2F;business&#x2F;stock-market-mass-psychology.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;2017&#x2F;09&#x2F;15&#x2F;business&#x2F;stock-market-mas...</a><p>[2] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;2017&#x2F;06&#x2F;29&#x2F;business&#x2F;stock-market-value-trump.html?mcubz=1" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;2017&#x2F;06&#x2F;29&#x2F;business&#x2F;stock-market-val...</a><p>[3] <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;time.com&#x2F;money&#x2F;4943479&#x2F;wall-street-prediction-stock-market-downturn&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;time.com&#x2F;money&#x2F;4943479&#x2F;wall-street-prediction-stock-m...</a>
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kolbe超过 7 年前
Economists are always right within their own narrowly-defined models! Yes, if you pre-define a set of securities that you will forever be limited to exclusively trading, and divide two groups into passive (never makes another trade again) and active (makes trades), the two groups will perform equally (excluding fees).<p>Now, in the real world, there are several significant reasons why that model model offers nothing but a fun little thought experiment.
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sethev超过 7 年前
Ownership seems to get mixed up with efficient capital allocation in a lot of discussions about this (referring to likely comments, not the article). For index investing to work you only need a market that&#x27;s &quot;efficient enough in aggregate&quot;. What you&#x27;re actually purchasing is ownership of future economic growth.
hellsten超过 7 年前
For those interested in indexation, FRMO&#x27;s Murray Stahl has published some thought-provoking articles about indexation here:<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.frmocorp.com&#x2F;indexation.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.frmocorp.com&#x2F;indexation.html</a><p><i>In principle, the theory behind indexation is very much like the theory of perfect competition. In perfect competition, the idea is that no participant is sufficiently powerful or sufficiently large to influence the price of the product. The product is assumed to be homogeneous, and shares are designed to be homogeneous. In the theory of market efficiency, no one has an information advantage over anyone else, and there is always enough liquidity. It seems reasonable to make those assumptions. Yet, it is worth making some observations about them.</i>
jyriand超过 7 年前
I think the main reason someone chooses to invest money into index funds is either they just want stable returns without too much hassle, or they believe in efficient market theory that basically states that you can&#x27;t beat the market, so no point in even trying(and that&#x27;s true for most of the mutual funds). But looking at value investors, it seems you can consistently beat the market.<p>Also, what bothers me about indexing, is that a lot of money is going into same companies(S&amp;P500). Look at any S&amp;P500 companies Top Institutional Holders and without a doubt Vanguard is on top(wild guess). Not sure what happens with the price, when company is excluded from S&amp;P500.<p>In conclusion, indexing is fun in the bull market, it&#x27;s just you can&#x27;t retire in the recession years.
cjlars超过 7 年前
This assumption that passive investors have no cash inflows &#x2F; outflows totally breaks his model. As soon as passive investors start buying or selling the index -- a real world necessity -- they are playing a zero sum game against a counterparty. Specifically, active investors could sell overpriced stocks to indexers and buy underpriced stocks from indexers, which in turn drives the price discovery. This churn allows for active investors, as a group, to gain alpha at the expense of indexers.<p>Piggybacking off the article&#x27;s example: Suppose news breaks that Facebook has made a catastrophic legal error which will result in them losing 50% of their revenue over the next year. This is obvious to the active investors who collectively decide to sell their Facebook shares, resulting in a fall in the total value of the index equal to the drop in value for Facebook. In the time it takes the old pre-news price to drop to the new post-news price, active investors have, on net, sold Facebook and gone to cash and will have shared in a relatively small portion of the crash, and passive investors will have bought Facebook due to churn, or held Facebook as part of the index, resulting in them absorbing a larger portion of the crash than active investors.<p>So how does this all fit into the &quot;active managers don&#x27;t earn their keep&quot; narrative? I think what we&#x27;ve seen is a long term drop in the alpha available to the active share due to things like narrowing spreads, faster response to new news, etc. So effectively active management is in a secular decline, which allows for (1) bad results for active managers on net, and (2) failure of poor performers and their removal from the market, and (3) continued real value generation by the better and remaining active managers. So this idea of conservation of alpha is also silliness because the market will always be slightly oversaturated (net negative value for money managers) or undersaturated (net positive value for money managers).<p>If you doubt this, read Ben Graham&#x27;s the &quot;Intelligent Investor&quot; -- In 1949 he thought it was quite easy (EASY!) for an average Joe to earn outsized returns with a little stock research (and I think history proved him right until at least the late &#x27;70s).
paulpauper超过 7 年前
<i>It’s important to remember, here, that secondary market trading and investing is a zero-sum game for the participants. For a given market participant to outperform, some other market participant has to underperform. Obviously, for a market participant with a given level of skill, the ease at which that participant will outperform will be a function of the quantity of unskilled participants that are there for the skilled participant to exploit. To the extent that the prevalence of indexing preferentially reduces that quantity, it makes outperformance more difficult.</i><p>That is a myth that refuses to die.<p>Market makers and liquidity providers enter into neutral trades so it doesn&#x27;t matter which way the market goes..they make money from the spread and churn. Just because you made $40k from being long Google doesn&#x27;t mean some schmuck lost $40k.<p><i>Eventually, indexing comes around to disrupt the industry. Of the 500,000 individuals that were previously managing funds, 499,500 go out of business, with their customers choosing the passive option instead. The remaining 500–which are the absolute cream of the crop–continue to compete with each other for profit, setting prices for the overall market.</i><p>Indexing has been around for a long time now, but active mgmt has had a terrible time and is actually getting worse in recent years, against the author&#x27;s thesis that passive investing is supposed to create a small pool of &#x27;superstars&#x27;.
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skdjksjdksjdk超过 7 年前
Quick Question: Why is efficiency a desired outcome in markets? Or is it just a natural outcome of competing players?
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jamez1超过 7 年前
This is dumb, the point of the stock market is the return the stocks give you in dividends etc. Here, he treats those returns as not being a factor, and as stocks having no intrinsic value.<p>If they have no intrinsic value of course passive management makes sense!
bcoates超过 7 年前
Prices are set at the margin.<p>This article is concerned with the average skill of investors, an entirely meaningless metric that determines nothing. The marginal investor determines prices not the mean one.
bandrami超过 7 年前
Is efficiency a desired quality of a market?
CoreXtreme超过 7 年前
Investing in index is like subscribing for slavery. It only benefits people with tons of money. Sure, it&#x27;s less risky. But along with preventing massive downside, it prevents massive upside too. I&#x27;ve just got 1 life, limited time and I want to risk everything for a massive upside, not efficient market.
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