Ask HN: How do you deal with overconfident and mediocre individuals?

63 点作者 kevintb超过 7 年前

I have a high bar for expressing absolute confidence for something (ie knowledge in a field or proficiency in a language) and am continuously surprised by people who claim mastery of something/that they are a natural at something, but in reality are quite mediocre, or above average at best. Furthermore, the same individuals tend to put down others who are more humble/less confident in their skills, directly or subtly.It infuriates me when these individuals subtly bring down others, but I am unsure how to approach it - directly, indirectly, or just ignore it and focus on my own work and goals.I also anticipate that I’ll be told the only way is for me to be more vocally confident in myself, but that is not my natures and I have little appetite in continuing the status quo.

27 条评论

peterhi超过 7 年前

There are two issues here. Firstly is your perception that they are 'quite mediocre, or above average at best' - this is your problem. Looking down on people for being less than yourself is not an admirable trait, something you seem to share with them.The second issue is the other person 'tend to put down others who are more humble/less confident in their skills'. This is a what you would call a jerk (or arsehole in UK parlance). This is the issue that needs fixing. Are you in a position to call them out on this? Not necessarily official manager type position but pull them up each time they do it.Someone like this could be seen as a bully and making the workplace unpleasant for the quieter / more humble members.Their skills are irrelevant, if they were the most brilliant programmer in the world this would not excuse such behaviour.

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muzani超过 7 年前

It's natural. It's Dunning Kruger effect. People become very confident when they first learn a little and consider themselves experts.It is rather hypocritical to put someone down for lacking knowledge; doing so implies that you are judging them as lacking knowledge. You end up doing the exact same thing. I have never seen this done in a way that doesn't backfire.I just treat people like that as children or teenagers. You don't have to be mean. You just entertain and enjoy their illusion. They might grow out of it and realize what fools they were.Be tolerant, similar to religious tolerance. They believe what they do. If you have enough evidence to convince them, you can do so.You might end up in a closed circle of smarter people, but that's fine. The competent ones tend to float to the top.

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brazzy超过 7 年前

Well, you're not going to be able to change the status quo that confidence is largely admired and taken at face value. That's the world you live in and have to deal with.But if your specific goal is to prevent overconfident people from "bringing down" those who are less confident (presumably mainly you), your best bet is to move the discussion concrete, measurable past successes and failures, and resist attempts to change the topic away from those.If the discussion is inherently about plans for the future and there is no past record of achievements (how do you know they're overconfident then?), insist on a process that produces concrete, meaningful process in reasonably short increments so that unrealistic promises will be exposed early on.

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mmjaa超过 7 年前

>>How to deal with 'overconfident' and 'mediocre' individuals?Realise that the source of your problem is your own hubris."Overconfident" just means "un-tested and un-proven"."Mediocre" just means "un-developed".No man is an island, if you feel that your social perspective is coming from a place of moral authority, it is incumbent on you to place that altitude in perspective - push these people forward. The "overconfident" need testing - real application. The "mediocre" need training - you have an opportunity to push these key members of your team forward.And, you should. Anything less would be a manifestation of your own 'overconfidence' - and the fact you're asking, means you are, actually, also 'mediocre'.Thus, hubris is your real bug. Fix it.

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slamdance超过 7 年前

Remember, we're ALL learning all the time, always progressing in knowledge and ability. Or at least we SHOULD be.So lets take something simple. tying your shoelaces. when a 5 year old does it while singing the bunny song, they feel they have it down pat. SO when a 3 year old sees it, the 5 year old MUST be a master, right? the 5 year old thinks they're awesome at tying their shoes when the bunny goes around the tree and through the hole, etc.... so it must be true, until they see the NBA ballers do it without missing a step or 3 seconds off the clock.The point is that being a "master" actually depends on the viewpoint of the person(s) they're interacting with. In this case, you or the person you feel they are subtly bringing down. IMO, the best way to handle these situations is to humbly remind everyone that we're all still learning. There is always someone better out there, there is always a better or more efficient way to do things. Correcting someone while teaching them (and without insults) is optimal (especially if you're not the expert you thought you were, either). Doing it this way brings both the braggadocios and the meek to the same plane and does it without bruising egos. It works even better when these two personalities are on the same team - But this is just my experience.

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maxxxxx超过 7 年前

There was an article posted here a while ago that described how people from elite schools always talk with confidence even if they have no clue and how this is a recipe for success.If you are soft spoken I think the only way to get peace is to get in a position where you can control your part and can ignore louder people. I have done this at previous companies and in the long run you get noticed by your results. If you can't find that place it's probably better to look for another job.

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saint_abroad超过 7 年前

> Talk is cheap. Show me the code. - <a href="https://lkml.org/lkml/2000/8/25/132" rel="nofollow">https://lkml.org/lkml/2000/8/25/132</a>Insist on implementation to back theory.

combatentropy超过 7 年前

One way is to ask questions.The first way that most of us think to confront someone is to make statements: "You're wrong." Even impersonal facts, like "Solar is now cheaper per watt than coal" is unlikely to persuade your opponent, partially because they can tune you out as you ramble on.But if you ask a question, they have to listen closely, to avoid looking foolish when it's their turn to talk. A direct question is also more likely to lead them to think. Furthermore, a question is more polite.A question can still be devastating, "If you think x is better than y, then how do you account for (insert hard fact here)."

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jokoon超过 7 年前

Maybe tell them that it can be hurtful, even when said with humor, or tell them it's not really funny.If they are that much overconfident, just remind them of what they did wrong to make them realize they are not so perfect.Also just try to tell them without being judgemental. Try to use the "maybe" word or "I might be wrong but", try to make the person doubt a little so that he/she can take a step back.You can also try to joke about that person's overconfidence.

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willart4food超过 7 年前

I believe that most anyone who has been in a managerial position has experienced some of what you have described, some people handle it better than others.I don't know the specifics of your situation but I will attempt to point you toward some resources that might help.The fundamentals lay within the issue of Dominance hierarchy (<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominance_hierarchy" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominance_hierarchy</a>) whereas if you are placed in a position of Dominance, these people will at least challenge, if not wanting to replace you.They might be insecure about their capabilities/knowledge so with time they have developed a "fake it till you make it" survival techniques.One of the solutions is for you to become more assertive and therefore have more/better skills to maintain your deserved Dominance within the hierarchy.It might have to do with your Personality Traits (<a href="https://www.verywell.com/the-big-five-personality-dimensions-2795422" rel="nofollow">https://www.verywell.com/the-big-five-personality-dimensions...</a>), scoring too high in Agreeableness (higher than the people you're talking about).Prog. Jordan B Peterson talks often about this issues, you might want to go on YouTube and search "big 5 personality traits Jordan Peterson" and watch some of his videos for some highly interesting material on the matter.

rootlocus超过 7 年前

I've met such people, and they were very hard to work with. Fortunately, I don't work there anymore and my current team is comprised of very good people (both technically and socially). This is due to the fact that the team leader simply doesn't hire people with toxic attitudes, no matter their skill level. And personally, I would simply refuse to work with someone toxic either by filing a complaint with the team leader, requesting a transfer or leaving the company.I see no problem with filing a complaint because the most likely results are fine by me:* Either he has a talk with the manager and hopefully tones down* or he accumulates enough complaints that he's removed from the team* or the management doesn't respond well to complaints, which signals it's not a team / company I would want to work with.

dhoulb超过 7 年前

There may be a place for those people — i.e. where a fast confident decision is actually better than a thoroughly discussed ‘correct’ decision.Those people, in my experience, are usually pretty comfortable taking big risks (on their spotty information), which can be useful.But if you’re the second kind of person, working with the first kind would be infuriating. So if long term happiness was your goal you’d probably want to work for organisations that encourage careful collaborative decision making.Basically, if you’ve recognised in yourself that you don’t like these people, avoid them (and places they’d be drawn to).I can’t think of any way you could ‘bring them down to size’, etc, that wouldn’t just bring more pain.

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athrowaway3z超过 7 年前

> I also anticipate that I’ll be told the only way is for me to be more vocally confident in myselfIf you know better you should be more vocally confident in yourself.The world is full of people who bullshit. You should not hide from it, and you should not deny it.>the same individuals tend to put down others who are more humble/less confident in their skills, directly or subtly.They also need to learn that the world is full of these kind of people. If you wan't to help build their confidence , you can explain how the 'master' is overestimating his/her skills.

EZ-E超过 7 年前

In which context ? In personal life I would simply avoid them.In any case trying to confront them and get them to "change" is bound to lead to disastrous results.Just focus on yourself unless it personally affect you.

dennis_jeeves超过 7 年前

If it's any consolation, I'm in the same boat as you. I suspect the solution if any, would be group up with similar minded people and run an profit making enterprise. But I speculate that this is unlikely to happen as most profit making enterprises tend to overstate what they will deliver in their marketing of products or services. But if the enterprise is made of individuals who do not oversell their services or product often their business never really takes off.

skmurphy超过 7 年前

Easiest way to raise the level of discussion in a team is to model the behavior you would like others to adopt. In the situation you describe you could do the following: when you express your opinion briefly summarize the basis for it and when you see others doing good work or providing useful insights praise them both privately and in front of the team.

bitL超过 7 年前

If you are managing them, give them a solvable but challenging task. When they succeed, remove them from your mediocre individual pool. When they fail, repeat once. When they fail again, you have 2 examples in your favor when arguing with them. Use wisely.

teekert超过 7 年前

Imho the entire problem is -and should be- yours. If you feel that such people take jobs/fame/complements away from you, you should work on your expression of confidence. Because logically, these what you call "over confident" people get stuff done and get praise (or you wouldn't be jealous of them!) Yes, you are jealous of the success which you think is undeserved. But that is an opinion. Nobody needs a smart person that never opens their mouth at the right time or that doesn't offer their services or is unclear about what they can do.You are obviously an introvert, so this will be hard for you, at first. But you are going to have to grow a pair and either offer your skills to people looking for them and prove you are better than the other person or learn to not feel annoyed by it. As you say, you ignore the situation and you focus on your work, ask yourself: Why? What will this behavior bring you? How could you alter that behavior to feel less frustration in such situations?You want change. You are going to have to deeply realize that the only factor you can change in this world, is yourself. Change your behaviour and you change the status quo. Keep being frustrated and you end up with the status quo: frustration... until it breaks you.Start by seeing (and naming, writing down even!) the merits of the behaviors that you seem to hate so much. It is also (mainly?) your metal connection between this behavior and the value you give it (you call it negative, it is not negative, it is nothing but a behaviour). You are going to have to unlearn this connection before you can start to apply it yourself (and receive the merits that come with the behaviour). This takes time and requires energy and constant awareness and honest reflection.What works for me is mantras. Short things I tell myself before entering a situation. For me it's things like: "Everybody here makes money, I'm not here for fun, be clear on the fact that you are going to want your hours paid if this negotiation turns into a set of tasks that you can pick up." Because I feel like the things I do are not worth a lot of money because I convince myself they are easy. But they usually are not, I'm just good at them (and I have to tell myself that as it doesn't come naturally to me.) And man, it took me 35 years to realize this ;). Don't underestimate these processes.Yes you are going to have to learn the subtle art of not giving a F (which -if you read the book- translates to giving a F* about only the right/useful things). I think that book is very valuable to people like you and me.

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Dowwie超过 7 年前

When you work as a team, being right is important but so is getting along with others. Try to turn your fury and intolerance into a constructive experience by developing an important skill of diplomacy.

gadders超过 7 年前

Point them to this page: <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect</a>:-)

mattdeboard超过 7 年前

Bitch about them to friends who don't work there.

nortiero超过 7 年前

"Hell is other people"

monk_e_boy超过 7 年前

Follow up question: How do you deal with this when it is your boss?

rasengan超过 7 年前

The age-old adage:1 delete Facebook 2 hit the gym 3 ???? 4 profit.Who cares what others do. Focus on what you do.People still think I don't know how to code for example lol.I don't give a flying f. :)

lostmsu超过 7 年前

I shave one every morning. Works well.

singularity2001超过 7 年前

Fire them

nnq超过 7 年前

It's easy if you're the one putting forward the task for which mastery of X is needed: (1) add clear bad consequences for failure; make it sure that the job is "so easy" for "someone master at X"; make it obvious that failing can only occur through their fault; add that "this is a crucial task" and its bad execution could threaten the future of all; hint at ways of future public shaming in case of failure, preferably in a humorous way :), (2) add an expected performance quotation "someone knowing X should be able to do it in N days easily" and (3) add some VERY desirable reward for task completion, that includes social status increases, but it's also conditioned on a performance metric like time/budget spent, not just 'task completion'".The above will discourage anyone faking competence. The high reward that includes peer recognition will attract the truly competent ones.Also it may help if you try to understand the problem better. Try and figure out what are the motives of the persons over-selling themselves.There are on one side desperate extroverts who really need/want a job/project that requires them to have mastery of X, or they really want the client for whose projects mastery of X is required. So they play the "fake it till you make it". Of course, this is the optimistic perspective, some "just fake it", some become blocked in ever making it because they've faked it. I'm an introvert but I've played this game once myself - never again! (The insane amount of work that I had to do while also learning something I claimed to know, in a "jump straight in" way that slowed my learning paradoxically because I did not have the time to sit and learn the fundamentals was horrible and nerve wrecking.) -- There's noting to do about these people than avoid them, they'll learn their lesson and move on!Then there are the "chronic deceivers". They cannot be dishonest in one aspect alone. -- So to deal with them just prove to the _others_ that they are untrustworthy. You can toy them into saying contradictory things if you're clever and have the time to waste. Or maybe ask them for help on something in front of other people in a way that if they say "no" they are either _assholes_ or they don't really have knowledge of X - both outcomes help.Then the ones that also falsely believe themselves to have mastery of something. -- Just make it obvious to others that they are clueless and stupid in general.