TE
科技回声
首页24小时热榜最新最佳问答展示工作
GitHubTwitter
首页

科技回声

基于 Next.js 构建的科技新闻平台,提供全球科技新闻和讨论内容。

GitHubTwitter

首页

首页最新最佳问答展示工作

资源链接

HackerNews API原版 HackerNewsNext.js

© 2025 科技回声. 版权所有。

Lana Del Rey, Radiohead, and the Difficulty of Making Original Music

149 点作者 nikbackm超过 7 年前

24 条评论

cJ0th超过 7 年前
As a hobby music producer I just can&#x27;t wrap my head around the logic behind copyright infringement. It&#x27;s so arbitrary. It&#x27;s illegal to steal a melody but sophisticated chord progressions are fine. It&#x27;s illegal to copy the text of even the simplest verse but reverse engineering some complex synthesizer sounds is fine.<p>Although I personally strive for it, I don&#x27;t think originality is a point worth discussing. Music is about expression first and foremost. The difficulty we have today is that you can&#x27;t freely express yourself. Many of the great hip hop records of the 90s, for instance, couldn&#x27;t be produced today because sample clearing would be a nightmare.<p>I do, of course, understand that each work requires, errm, work. So I am fine with some form of protection for the artist. But imho it should be a rather broad protection. That is, releasing a cover without permission or selling someone else work (i.e. 100% of the lyrics or melody or even arrangement...) as your own is not ok. But I think as long as there is any form of creative alteration involved then &quot;copying&quot; should be fair play. Especially when several years or even a decade have past.
评论 #16144479 未加载
评论 #16144608 未加载
评论 #16144306 未加载
评论 #16144382 未加载
评论 #16145722 未加载
评论 #16145203 未加载
评论 #16145526 未加载
评论 #16144856 未加载
jimnotgym超过 7 年前
For anyone who doesn&#x27;t play the guitar, &#x27;Creep&#x27; and the Hollies track is is derived from come feature a rather obvious chord progression. Physically it is the result of sliding an open E chord down the neck to produce higher notes then, la piece de resistance, taking a finger off. Radiohead added a killer feature of turning the gain up on the amplifier for the chorus, genius. It&#x27;s the kind of thing teenagers everywhere find in their second month of guitar mastery.<p>It shouldn&#x27;t even be copyrightable. The guitar is full of things like this that are not great feats of musical theory but simple physical movements that are bound to happen. This is why guitar music generally sounds so derivative, because there are a number of obvious steps that all players will find quite quickly.<p>Why should you get paid for the guitar equivalent of pressing all of the white notes on a piano?<p>Edit: typo
评论 #16144480 未加载
评论 #16144513 未加载
评论 #16144691 未加载
评论 #16145572 未加载
评论 #16144697 未加载
评论 #16144441 未加载
评论 #16144331 未加载
评论 #16144429 未加载
评论 #16145353 未加载
评论 #16146604 未加载
评论 #16146551 未加载
jasode超过 7 年前
The issue with Lana Del Ray&#x27;s &quot;<i>Get Free</i>&quot;, Radiohead&#x27;s &quot;<i>Creep</i>&quot;, and Hollies &quot;<i>Air That I Breathe</i>&quot; is that we (and&#x2F;or the courts) don&#x27;t put the chord progression of &quot;I–III–IV–iv&quot; in the same everybody-and-their-dog-has-been-doing-it bucket as &quot;I-IV-V&quot; or the &quot;I–V–vi–IV&quot;[1] (axis of Awesome parodied in the youtube video[2]).<p>If musicologists for Lana Del Ray can find an out-of-copyright work such as a very old classical piece or folk song that uses that progression, the potential lawsuit would have no merit. Until then, that chord progression&#x27;s very identifiable &quot;chromatic movement and eerie tension&quot; is easy to notice so it will always attract new lawsuits.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;I%E2%80%93V%E2%80%93vi%E2%80%93IV_progression" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;I%E2%80%93V%E2%80%93vi%E2%80%9...</a><p>[2] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=5pidokakU4I" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=5pidokakU4I</a>
评论 #16144412 未加载
the_gipsy超过 7 年前
It id absurd to copyright a melody IMO.<p>Consider flamenco. It has about 10 base styles each with a specific scale, melody (yes you are reading right!), beat, and structure. Then there are a variety of variations, that perhaps change the structure or mix in another melody.<p>Between the base melody parts, there are falsetas which are unique melodies. These are also shared between guitarists. Some are considered popular and are untraceable, if their first appearance is near the time of the invention of recording devices.<p>The lyrics are also shared between singers. In fact it is quite rare for a singer to compose any new lyrics of his own!<p>Furthermore flamenco does not really have “songs” like pop music has. There is simply performance, where singers, guitarists, dancers and palmeros play. Never a specific song, but just one style so that the structnure is agreed and known. No one owns a verse, a melody or a dance move.<p>Flamenco is a music world totally incompatible with the western notion of copyright, because it falls apart. Really the o ly thing that can be agreed on is that one particular recording of a performance can have copyright.
评论 #16145197 未加载
yohann305超过 7 年前
Nowadays it wouldn&#x27;t be hard to build a program that generates a 500+ hour long instrumental piece which contains 80%+ of all song progression sequences. Then release it under &quot;free for commercial use&quot; and nobody can every sue anyone else in the future. Thank you very much
评论 #16144509 未加载
评论 #16145309 未加载
eat_veggies超过 7 年前
This really reminds me of a short story someone on HN recommended a while ago: &quot;Melancholy Elephants,&quot; written by Spider Robinson.<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;spiderrobinson.com&#x2F;melancholyelephants.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;spiderrobinson.com&#x2F;melancholyelephants.html</a>
评论 #16144404 未加载
privacypoller超过 7 年前
The interesting part of this is not actually the copyright infringement, but the aggressive use by the Del Rey camp as a marketing opportunity. Her song is a deep cut that was never a single and apparently Radiohead is trying to settle out of court, yet she&#x27;s actively pushing the narrative of a &quot;100% claim lawsuit&quot; and how they&#x27;re making her life a &quot;living hell&quot;. Coupled with the deliberate manufactured image of Lana Del Rey and the resulting exposure I can&#x27;t believe this in not an intentional ploy that&#x27;s driving huge exposure to both her and this substandard, at best derivative, song.
评论 #16145255 未加载
billsix超过 7 年前
I have &quot;written&quot; guitar riffs that I later found out were from a song I hadn&#x27;t heard in 5+ years. I had honestly thought that I wrote it.
评论 #16144545 未加载
评论 #16145037 未加载
评论 #16144436 未加载
评论 #16144445 未加载
bfsg超过 7 年前
There is no such thing as creating an original. Everyone and everything is inspired in some or many ways. You consciously or unconsciously select your source(s) of inspiration. The guitarist of Radiohead is not playing some never played before stuff, it&#x27;s the basic guitar thing millions of guitarists play. Everybody is copying everybody, changing only slight bits.<p>The whole music industry is stolen. And the worse part of this issue is that Radiohead is not making a dollar less because of Lana Del Rey, instead they just want to make some more of of her.<p>For some reason most people in this world want to own too many things they never should own in the first place. Intellectual property should only come into play if it really harms the &#x27;original&#x27; authors revenue because of a straight copy.
评论 #16144865 未加载
elnygren超过 7 年前
<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;open.spotify.com&#x2F;track&#x2F;61MoKejsY2k0hVb50zZ4Yn" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;open.spotify.com&#x2F;track&#x2F;61MoKejsY2k0hVb50zZ4Yn</a><p>To be honest, probably anyone can tell that the intro and first verse is a quite clear case of plagiarism. First 10-20 seconds is enough. It&#x27;s the same melody, same chords and even a similar way of playing those chords with a guitar.
jsgo超过 7 年前
I get that everyone is talking chord progressions, but honestly, to me in Del Rey vs Radiohead: it is the vocals of the opening part of Get Free. Because that&#x27;s the part where I&#x27;m thinking &quot;hey, this sounds like Creep&quot; (not a musician).<p>The Hollies and Radiohead, though, yeah, that&#x27;s very similar accompanying music.
odabaxok超过 7 年前
Everything is a remix video series is worth watching in this topic. It covers how every musician from Led Zeppelin to recent artists &quot;remix&quot; existing melodies. Also, how remix is done in other genres (e.g. movies):<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.everythingisaremix.info&#x2F;watch-the-series&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.everythingisaremix.info&#x2F;watch-the-series&#x2F;</a>
评论 #16146117 未加载
IAmGraydon超过 7 年前
I read this article and have to admit that I instantly sided with Radiohead because I have a natural bias toward them and against Lana. I&#x27;m just not a fan of her music. Then I listened to her track. I&#x27;m very familiar with the Radiohead track. Radiohead is just plain wrong on this one.<p>Here&#x27;s the problem - your average jury&#x2F;judge&#x2F;lawyer does not have the required music theory knowledge to understand how asinine Radiohead&#x27;s case is. There is a short list of 3-, 4- and 5-chord harmonic progressions that literally 90% of popular music is based on. What makes these songs different is the overlying melody and (to a lesser degree) the rhythm. Because these progressions are so commonly used, your mind doesn&#x27;t automatically go &quot;this song sounds like that song&quot; because they all somewhat sound like each other (in a harmonic sense) and none really sticks out. We focus instead on the melody and rhythm.<p>Now in the case of this Lana Del Rey song, she is using a far more rare chord progression in the verse where the last chord in the progression moves from a major chord to the minor of the same chord instead of resolving to the tonic. It creates the sense of dark tension in the song. Radiohead also uses this technique in Creep. Lana has really done nothing different from all the other pop musicians who use the same harmonic progressions as each other, but in this case there are very few songs to compare it to since it&#x27;s a very non-standard progression. So when you hear this next to Creep, your brain goes &quot;wow they do sound very similar&quot;. The melody of the vocals in the verse seems to carry some similarity to Creep as well, but it&#x27;s really a pretty natural melodic line to sing over that progression due to how strong the color of the harmonic sequence is. Most importantly, the chorus shares nothing in common with the chorus of Creep.<p>In court, Radiohead will likely win because the general population just does not understand this in-depth. They haven&#x27;t written music and therefore don&#x27;t get how easily one song can sound like another with absolutely no plagiarism intended. The sad thing, to me, is that Radiohead DOES understand this and they are still choosing to go ahead with the lawsuit against another creative artist. I guess that&#x27;s what happens when you still need to make money and your career effectively ended decades ago.
评论 #16151254 未加载
评论 #16146185 未加载
tr0ut超过 7 年前
I think this is just the nature of music. It requires a rather rigid system which does not offer enough diversity to be completely unique. All musical genres need to at least share the same root elements for association.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;Co9mW_9hH2g" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;Co9mW_9hH2g</a>
评论 #16144336 未加载
评论 #16144320 未加载
评论 #16144333 未加载
acobster超过 7 年前
&gt; <i>Sebastian Tomczak, an electronic musician from Australia, uploaded a ten-hour white-noise video to YouTube, and was promptly walloped with five infringement claims. YouTube’s automated Content ID system scans all uploaded videos against a database of copyrighted material; any overlapping content is flagged. When a supposed infringement is detected, the copyright owner can either have the video removed, or allow it to remain, and automatically garnish any advertising revenue that it might generate.</i><p>This kind of IP shenanigans is going to continue for as long as the burden of proof is on the party doing the &quot;infringing.&quot; YouTube and platforms like it are built with this inherent bias toward copyright holders, despite the absurd frequency of false positives. On one hand, I can see how this <i>might</i> protect, say, indie film studios who don&#x27;t have the resources to chase after everyone who posts their movies on YouTube illegally. At the same time, when a system&#x27;s incentives result in bullshit like Fair Use protections being completely ignored[0], it&#x27;s time for a new system.<p>Mammoth, centralized systems like YouTube are, unfortunately, still Really Hard to maintain without the backing of a proportionately mammoth company with lots of resources. You can be sure that that company&#x27;s interest will often align with those of others with deep pockets. So in my mind, as with many of the big problems on today&#x27;s internet, the technical aspect of this challenge really stems from centralization itself.<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=nryFmUjtwEY" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=nryFmUjtwEY</a>
milesward超过 7 年前
I have struggled to master guitar-based songs on my handy electric Sousaphone for years. I grab a small bass guitar and POOF: pop songs are mechanically easy on this device, it&#x27;s right there under your fingers. Turns out: the instrument informs and constrains the creation.
评论 #16145216 未加载
评论 #16150029 未加载
achr2超过 7 年前
If any one or two of the song characteristics were similar most would chalk it up to inspiration - but in this case every progression, melody, vocal slide, beat, and crescendo is appropriated. Not to mention the tone of the piece and lyrics.
fnl超过 7 年前
I don&#x27;t see why this isn&#x27;t just another example of a broken system - copyright is wrong, always. It was invented by the Inquisition, after all.
Justsignedup超过 7 年前
This also underlines the rediculousness of how long copyright is. Seriously, around what ~130 years?<p>Things inspire people, people copy, there isn&#x27;t an infinite amount of good ideas.<p>Frankly creep is old enough that I&#x27;d argue it should be copyable. Just like other ideas. But alas the Mickey Mouse laws are really hindering progress IMO.
blawson超过 7 年前
Well timed piece from the BBC related to this:<p>Has Pop Music Lots Its Fun? <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bbc.co.uk&#x2F;music&#x2F;articles&#x2F;fb84bf19-29c9-4ed3-b6b6-953e8a083334" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bbc.co.uk&#x2F;music&#x2F;articles&#x2F;fb84bf19-29c9-4ed3-b6b6...</a>
minipci1321超过 7 年前
Can&#x27;t help but think of: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Unaccompanied_Sonata" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Unaccompanied_Sonata</a>
piokuc超过 7 年前
I don&#x27;t normally listen to Lana but I clicked on the YouTube link and saw the title of the album is Lust for Life - is Iggy Pop planning to sue her too, lol.
klakier超过 7 年前
It&#x27;s not hard to make original music. It&#x27;s easy! But it&#x27;s way harder to find listeners of original music.<p>People like what they already know...
foobaw超过 7 年前
I&#x27;ll add on that this is an absurd lawsuit, in a music theory perspective. However, my legal knowledge is shabby.<p>Are there any precedents regarding cases like these? If, for some peculiar reason, Radiohead wins this case, then I can imagine they&#x27;ll have the ability to just sue anyone that becomes popular that uses a similar chord progression &#x2F; melody. Considering that &quot;original music&quot; is almost non-existent in pop music, what&#x27;s going to happen then?