People leave managers, not companies

528 点作者 theyeti超过 7 年前

39 条评论

Greed超过 7 年前

One of the issues I've had that isn't mentioned here is the value of mutual trust. Communication and trust are the two cornerstones of a really solid manager <-> managee relationship in my experience. Whether that lack of trust manifests itself as micro-management, constant check-ins, or a constant threat of surveillance it can easily turn an above average performer into an apathetic and demoralized employee.I used to work remotely for a company that spanned more than a few timezones, with a wonderful daily team manager and a not-so-great weekly department manager. Learning that my minutes and output were constantly monitored completely destroyed my trust with the latter, and had me searching within the week. My reaction to that was so strong I actually considered it a fortune when I was laid off for unrelated reasons rather than having to quit.I would be reprimanded for signing on five minutes later than usual despite being on a team of individuals that spanned multiple countries, and would get a questioning ping if I was offline for more than 10 minutes (especially problematic if you're the type of programmer to write or plan code on the whiteboard / paper first). Extremely draining to deal with that sort of nonsense and mistrust.Please, managers of the world, trust your employees! You have performance metrics for a reason!

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ZenoArrow超过 7 年前

I think this article misses an important point, which is that managers, or at least line managers, are often the messenger for decisions made in upper management.If I think back on the jobs I've had in the past, it's very rare for me to have issues with line managers. However, I had serious doubts about the competency of upper management in multiple companies that I've worked for.In this case, unless upper management recognise the problems that the line manager is highlighting, there's often not much more the line manager can do. Seeing as upper are (in my experience) frequently out of touch with the repercussions of their decisions, line managers should accept that they can only do what they can with what they're given (either that or leave).

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ravenstine超过 7 年前

It's probably easier for managers to overrate their skills and performance because the problems they cause are often not overt; if parts of their team are underperforming, the knee-jerk assessment is that "there's something wrong with Joe" rather than "there's something wrong with our process" or "there's something wrong with what I'm doing."Some of my worst experiences with management involved cases of serious micromanagement. I'd say if you're micromanaging, there's a 99.9 percent chance that you're a bozo and you don't belong in the position you're in even if you had initially earned it. You have trust issues with your employees and you've failed to build a team and environment that allows people to effectively manage themselves.The best mangers I've known are the ones who are minimally involved. People who are given the space to make choices, be creative, and fail every so often, will often figure out how to manage themselves.I'd argue that people usually leave both managers and companies because companies too often fail to recognize the broken patterns of managers. This is anecdotal, but I worked at one place where more than half of the development team(those with the most talent) quit within a span of 2 weeks, and somehow upper management decided it was not the fault of our tyrannical manager and instead replaced those positions with junior developers they could underpay and abuse. It's all the more insulting when you can point out the problems and provide actual solutions, and the aloof men in suits on Mount Olympus allow the problem to fester. I might have stayed for another year had they booted out our manager.The fact that most people have stories of terrible management is astounding, and it doesn't say very much for whatever training managers receive(if any?).

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somberi超过 7 年前

I have been managing large teams (Anywhere from 100 to 300 people) and in my experience I would phrase it differently.1. In a going concern, which has found traction, a manager is often the _reason_ for people to leave the company.2. In a company that is not finding traction, or the larger view of its direction is obfuscated, managers are the reason people _stay_ back to work.This manager being the end-all of association comes from military knowledge that you fight because of allegiance to your battalion, cause and the country - in that order.In an knowledge enterprise, these constructs exist, but with almost equal weightage.The best manager cannot make an employee stay back if the company is not going anywhere, or if the cause is not evident.The worst manager will lose employees even if the company is going bonkers.

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toomanybeersies超过 7 年前

At my previous job, I left due to the company, not the management.My direct supervisor was great. He was a good manager on most levels.I left because the company had no future, they weren't going bankrupt, but they weren't growing either. I never got a pay rise, probably never would. My benefits actually shrunk as time went on, staff social functions were cut (e.g. team lunches), use of networking funds became more restricted, and my work environment became less flexible.In fact, the only reason I considered staying was my manager and coworkers.People leave poor working environments, whether it's a company or a manager causing that poor environment.

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quickthrower2超过 7 年前

You don't just leave a bad manager. You escape! Emotionally it is deflating, defeating, a real grind that affects your whole life if your work situation sucks.

jdsknene超过 7 年前

No, people leave companies too. Using my throwaway account because I don't want my name attached to this.I went contract-to-hire at my current job. When it came time to come on full-time, the offer they made was far too low to accept. The owner of the company made a big deal out of the bonus and at the time I believed him. I held out for $5k more before accepting.Fast forward a year later and I'm really looking forward to this bonus. It was 5% of my salary, basically an extra paycheck. I was expecting at least three times that because of what he said during the negotiation. I started looking that day and am interviewing with two companies.I've since realized that I just don't want to work for consultants anymore. You're being farmed out and your labor is being arbitraged. This incentivizes them to dick you on comp. I know in his mind it's just business, but I don't want that in my life anymore.So while the thesis of this article may hold for a certain segment of the labor market, it certainly doesn't hold for all of them. Some segments just suck. Conflicts of interest in these segments invariably pit line workers against management and no amount of manager cordialness or professionalism will prevent turnover.Sure there are a few workplaces that have ironed out conflicts of interest and so can attract the cream of the crop, these places can build nice engineer caves and then personal relationships rather than endemic conflicts of interest become the dominant cultural factor that drives turnover. But these guys trying to tell the rest of the world's managers how to run a shop is just profoundly naive.

rich_archbold超过 7 年前

Hey all,I'm the blog author, Rich Archbold from Intercom. Just to clarify …I wrote this blog, with the exaggerated / cliched title, to try to speak to the large cohort of over-confident, under-skilled and often lacking-enough-self-awareness, managers out there. I was (and often still am) a member of this cohort. Being a great manager all the time is really hard and almost impossible IMHO.The goal was to hopefully try and generate some more self-awareness and introspection and thus make life a little fairer, more pleasant, more growth-oriented and hopefully more successful for all concerned.I wasn't trying to deny or downplay that people also leave their jobs for all of the other reasons highlighted by folks here.Thanks, Rich.

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seanmcdirmid超过 7 年前

Likewise, there probably isn't such a thing as a 10X developer, but I totally believe 10X managers exist (they provide cover, they have empathy, they are able to lead people who otherwise aren't very manageable). I've only met very few of them in my career, most managers are 1X or even negative.

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lliamander超过 7 年前

I have only ever left good managers. I've had bad managers, but it was only under good managers that I was fully enabled to do my best work - work that would give me the confidence (and the resume fodder) to pitch myself to a new company for better pay.That may seem disloyal to those good managers, but I never left on a whim. It was always an agonizing process. But it was also always necessary. My former managers have never held it against me, and I now have connections with a number of great managers who would hire me without question if I was ever looking again (and they know I would work for them in a heartbeat).What always happened was that it became evident that my interests and my company's interest had diverged, whether it was a lack of opportunity for advancement, the company was going under, the product was a non-starter, or upper-management was bent on self-sabotage.EDIT: Added missing words

notacoward超过 7 年前

There's often a third possibility; leaving groups. At a small enough startup they're effectively the same, but I've seen distinct groups form in companies as small as 20. While it's true that a manager can affect the quality of the entire group, they're only one factor. High-performing fun group with a ho-hum manager? I'll probably stay. Dysfunctional bunch of ho-hum peers with a really good manager? That was my last job, and it's not my current job for exactly that reason.Especially at a larger company, managers might be constrained wrt hiring and firing, reviews and raises, pushing back against misguided product-management decisions, etc. Even a good manager might not be able to deal with these issues quickly enough to prevent attrition. I've seen some really good managers, people I'd worked with before and who have been superstars at other companies, burn out trying. That's sort of leaving the company that hobbled the manager, but other managers and other groups within the same company were doing fine so I'd call it leaving the group.

CalRobert超过 7 年前

Tellingly, when I interviewed with Intercom their "culture fit" manager was extremely rude and condescending, and constantly interrupted. Everyone else was polite, but if this is the person who gets to decide "yeah, they'd fit in here" that's a pretty huge problem.People turn you down because of managers, not companies, too.

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lovich超过 7 年前

I've definitely left companies and not managers before. To be fair it's usually because my manager's manager's manager was an asshole who thought 1% and an attaboy would be enough to keep people when our rent had gone up 7% and neighboring companies we're offering 50% more. Also to be fair, my managers were good enough that I stayed 6 months longer than I would have with even a neutral manager

k__超过 7 年前

Problem is, managers shape companies.Last company I left went bankrupt and got bought by a VC who replaced the whole management.The new managers were running around telling people how to do things because of the "company spirit".A few people, including me, were in the company for over 7 years and we knew the company spirit, because well, we lived and formed it.Now some newly hired MBAs try to tell me that I'm wrong?The bankruptcy lead many people to leave. The rest left because of the new management. Now the company has the old name and product, but noone of the people that created or formed it remained.

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mychael超过 7 年前

There is an important distinction that hasn't been discussed much:- The reason people decide to resign.- The reason people begin to consider resigning.In my experience, bad management is what usually kicks off the whole thought process, but other factors are what cement the decision (like an offer with higher pay, better title, higher prestige company etc.)

phaus超过 7 年前

I work on a team that lost about 66% of its members in the last year and a half. Every single one of them liked our manager, but the way the organization works at a higher level was making everyone's life miserable. People absolutely leave companies because of the company.I've also had toxic managers at other organizations, so I agree a manager CAN drive an employee away, but that's not always or even usually the case.

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gadders超过 7 年前

I can't help feeling that sometimes saying "People leave managers, not companies" is something senior company management tell themselves to absolve themselves of blame for staff turnover.I could be managed by the best manager in the world, but if I'm paid 20% below market rate I'm going to leave for a better paid job.

korginator超过 7 年前

People leave the environment, not just the manager, though the manager is a big piece of the puzzle.I quit my last employer because the manager was an abusive bully with severe trust issues who would constantly threaten, abuse and demoralize people, but HR was also to blame since they did not lift a finger to address the issue even though this manager's behavior was widely known throughout the company for decades.I've also left a great manager in the past since the business was going nowhere. I've left a good manager and good team because I was very underpaid in another company.

rconti超过 7 年前

Funny, I just left a job where new management was installed and promptly lost ~12/30 people in the span of 9 months. Not only was life markedly worse on day 1, it got worse every time another quality coworker or line manager left.You'd think this would send a signal to someone that a mistake had been made. Nope!

pan69超过 7 年前

The best software teams I've worked on didn't have managers, they had facilitators.

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nishantvyas超过 7 年前

#1. People get hired for what they are good, their skills and then get promoted (to management) for same technical/IC skills not for the MGMT skills. No MGMT ramp-up. No MGMT tools. No MGMT framework. You are now tasked to lead a team. it's surely will fail.#2. Next the mindset. Typical mindset when you move from technical (or any IC) role to MGMT and the higher you go in MGMT should completely change.... unfortunately its not so easy to give up the control. MGMT is about making others successful... giving up your control to others is very frightening and often causes identity issues... moving from do it all (as an IC) to ask_and_inspire is not easy...#3. Assuming you overcome these two... typical problem of MGMT/leadership is they try to find, "What's the matter?" where as the focus should always be on "What matters to you (an individual/ICs in team)"

spodek超过 7 年前

"People join good projects and leave bad managers" is how I phrase it, quoting a business school professor and author, Michael Feiner.I wrote about how to use the perspective to help prepare for job searches and interviews, and to enjoy your time at work more: <a href="http://joshuaspodek.com/people-join-good-projects-leave-2" rel="nofollow">http://joshuaspodek.com/people-join-good-projects-leave-2</a>

everdev超过 7 年前

I've left a good manager for a higher salary.

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DaniFong超过 7 年前

people drop out of shitty things that undervalue them, which is much of the modern world. welcome to the world, 2.0.

oldsmallcorp超过 7 年前

Not my usual account for obvious reasons, but - I'm on my way out because of the company, not my manager. My current manager is decent, and my previous one was the reason I came to work for this company.The thing that's driving me out is the company's lack of direction. They talk of innovation, but their actions demonstrate that they're more concerned with maintaining the status quo with incremental improvements to aging products.I've spent about 70% of my few years here working on new products that never saw the light of day. That's disheartening. Fool me twice... time to go.

tnolet超过 7 年前

Not disagreeing with the point made, but why is this "article" (or rehash of other people's management philosophy) on the intercom site? What does it have to do to with them outside the fact they probably have managers. I might be a sour old man, but I honestly don't get these infomercial type blog posts. It makes me have a lesser opinion of companies publishing these types of things, although with intercom their beep boop sound already pretty much destroyed any sympathy. /s

husamia超过 7 年前

I can relate to this as a manager and as being managed. I been looking into this, do you think Self-Managed types of Organizations reduce the issues with this type of problem of out of date communication style from top down? we are in the 21st century. We don't need to have information coming from top down we need information coming the the bottom up. Our smart devices can do better job than a human manager!

paul7986超过 7 年前

I left my big fat paying job after....- reported a females colleagues non sexual harassment- started to be harassed myself by my direct coworker who insisted I use css lint in the strictest mode. When I disagreed with what lint was saying in the strictest mode he sold to management that I don’t know how to code or do my job. From then on I struggled to change their minds even when linking to things like using negative margins is valid.

sriku超过 7 年前

It was ironic to see this title and "here is why I left google" on HN front page at the same time.

unabst超过 7 年前

The manager is your interface to management. It's their job to tell you what you need to know and what to do. To an employee, they're the face of the business.But at the end of the day, if it's the people that make up a business, then I'd question if they are not the same thing.I asked a new acquaintance of mine about something bothering me.I asked him, "so, how often do you fire people? How do find the right people for your businesses?""I hardly ever have to fire anyone," he said. "I ask them questions, and they leave."Damn.And the thing is, this pressure isn't faked or manufactured. This isn't anyone trying to fire someone. This is just someone needing work done, and answers.No business wants anyone incompetent, yet, it happens, because of interviewees lying through their teeth and not knowing any better.So they walk in and fail to do the exact job they won for themselves, then come the questions.Now they lose their place and have to leave, knowing they got the job by accident.There is plenty of real pressure to go around in a real business, and we avoid managerial roles because we know the stakes are higher. We know that having a manager is "safer" than being one, because having a manager is having someone responsible for you, and for your well being. It's how America figured out how to hire from the abundant talent pool of those who can't handle tough responsibilities and stay happy on their own, and those who'd rather have it easier. It's the luxury of being managed.But above that, it gets even worse. Fewer luxuries, just higher pay. Just think of all the bullets the CEO has to catch with their teeth every day. And wen they fail, it's news.

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awefpoij超过 7 年前

My experience has been the complete opposite. I'm grossly underpaid and I know for a fact that my manager is fighting for me to stay here.The company (HR and upper management) and myself (I should not have accepted such a low starting salary) are solely to blame.

haddr超过 7 年前

people also leave the environment, so not only their managers, but their peers. managers are somehow reponsible for creating a proper environment, but it is hard to enforce the atmosphere created by the rest of the team...

hkmurakami超过 7 年前

Do people join managers, not companies?Serious question btw. I think such a scenario would be vastly superior to the general "join a black box" type of recruiting we have today.

Paul_S超过 7 年前

People leave salaries.

a13n超过 7 年前

I had a great manager at my last job but left because the role wasn't the right risk/reward profile I was looking for.

amyjess超过 7 年前

I have mixed thoughts on this. The one company I quit, I quit in large part because my manager was abusive. A particular tantrum my manager threw was what caused me to apply to several jobs in a fit of pique, and when one of them gave me an offer, I put in my notice. On the other hand, the company was toxic on several levels, the abusive manager was only part of it, and I'd been looking at job postings on and off for months before that incident.The pay was abysmal. Nobody at the company had any insurance (because of this I will never work for a startup again). Company leadership was willing to roll over for a transphobic landlord and throw me under the bus. The company was a young startup without any infrastructure or processes, and pretty much everybody technical had very little professional experience (including both the technical leadership and the rank-and-file; and I say this even though I ended up becoming friends with several of my fellow rank-and-file, most of whom I still talk to to this day). Somehow I got along well with the CTO, but he was very mercurial and there were some people there (including a couple friends of mine) he took a strong personal dislike to for no real reason, and I was always afraid he would turn on me. I definitely quit the company and not just the manager.I still keep up with them and their employees on LinkedIn. One thing I've noticed is that since I left, they've been handing out Director titles like candy, I'm assuming to compensate for their lack of monetary compensation.The company was a disaster on pretty much every level. The one good thing I could say about it was that some of my ex-coworkers there are still friends of mine, but that's a really low bar.Edit: I want to add another story. The company I ended up jumping ship to, I came close to quitting before they laid me off, for reasons that had nothing to do with my manager. My manager was excellent. I liked him a lot. But the work I was doing had nothing whatsoever to do with my skillset. I felt like an idiot compared to my coworkers, I made far less useful contributions than pretty much anybody else at the company (my boss reassured me that he didn't care because he knew the stuff they did was esoteric and was willing to spend years training someone new), and the longer I stayed the more it felt like it was actually harming my career since I was letting my specialty atrophy (and I still thought this even though I'm not a career-minded person!). Ultimately, that decision got taken out of my hands because 1/3 of the company including me got taken out in the only layoff in the company's 20-year history, but if I did quit it would have been despite my manager being awesome, not because of him.

sifoo超过 7 年前

There's a lot of talk about full stack developers lately, I'm still waiting to find the first full stack manager. Someone who's visionary, yet realistic; confident, yet empathic; powerful, yet humble. I feel like there's some truth to the saying that the best leaders are those who don't consider themselves fit to lead.

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praneshp超过 7 年前

I left my first job because the company(Yahoo) was burning. My manager was great, I'd love to work for her again. I left a few months earlier than I needed to though, because her new manager was an asshole.

gaius超过 7 年前

That manager may not be your line manager, they may be several levels above, they may even by the CEO. So actually, it is “the company”.