Ask HN: Can you get away with not working?

69 点作者 throwaway184827超过 7 年前

Been working for a startup for about 5 months while I bootstrap my own stuff to ramen profitability and I feel like I can get away with not working as much as I should at my day job. I don't really enjoy my relatively new job (but who does), which consists of working on shitty enterprise software, on one of the worst code bases I've ever seen (what’s new).Managers are very hands-off here, not many meetings either, outside of a weekly stand-up. I get just enough done each week to seem mildly productive to management which seems to be working.Thing is, I spend a good 40% of my time working on growing a couple Android apps and a SaaS business I've built which make up ~40% of my income so that I can finally quit working for The Man and focus on my dream full time.Posting this to get some thoughts from people who may have been or currently are where I'm at. I get that it's wrong, but that hasn't stopped me from doing it.Am I the only one that does this?

34 条评论

decentrality超过 7 年前

From the looks of it, you asked basically this same question within the past year.I think the real question is: are you being honest with yourself?The last time you asked this it was more along the lines of "I hate my job and want out, btw I have wife and 1 child" and now it's more cooled down to "I've accepted that I hate my job and I'm sort of just punishing them with my lack of direction in life" and then looking for someone to make the decision(s) for you, here, /again/ evidently.So are you being honest with yourself? Apart from income, what do you actually WANT to be doing? When you "work full time for yourself" are you going to have the motivation to do that? What direction do you have already, and what do you want your direction to change into or continue to be?

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rburhum超过 7 年前

Ugh... Let me give you a different point of view that will most likely not be popular in HNs, but what the hell.I have had employees like you, and I try to scan like the plague during interviews to avoid hiring folks like you.The thing is, that I hate to be micro-managed and by extension, I hate to micro-manage people. Since to have a good work environment, you need to have trust that works both ways.When one person does what you do (20% barely getting by to appear like you are actually getting something done), you create resentment to the other folks in your team: "Why is throwaway184827 getting a pass when we are all working to do our best? This sucks, I end up having to do his work".It is because of people like you that we had to create a structure to make sure that progress is being done, and so, overhead is being added and the party is over.Do your employer and your teammates a favor and quit right now. Work in whatever is that you truly love - otherwise you are being toxic to people around you - and more importantly, yourself.

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reificator超过 7 年前

I can't speak to doing something to make sidemoney while you're on the clock. But I can speak to the boredom side of this question.Whenever you feel the temptation to just slack off, come up with something that you could do to help the company out that would also be enjoyable.For instance:Most of my job is in Javascript/web and Golang. A few months ago I needed to get back into the swing of C# (and learn WinForms) to help out with a new project. (Other than my normal responsibilities, we're mostly a Microsoft shop)At the same time, there was a PowerPoint file being sent around that we were supposed to fill out and screenshot to create an image based email signature.I got approval from my direct supervisor to whip up a WinForms app that made an HTML signature (with RTF/txt fallbacks) that contained phone, email, and address links and automatically installed the signature to Outlook. Had a couple other convenience features as well.So rather than screwing around, I learned a new library, provided value to the company, and had my name thrown around by the higher ups in a positive light for several weeks. All for the cost of maybe 16 hours of work here and there where I already had some spare time.

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deedubaya超过 7 年前

Morality and legalities aside (don't trust internet strangers for that stuff anyway), I have some comments.1. All employees should do the very minimum amount of work possible to sustain the relationship with their employer and meet their own personal goals. Check all the boxes, but don't go above and beyond unless there is a direct benefit to you (promotion, bonus, etc). If you can check all those boxes in just a fraction of the time, great!2. If you're bootstrapping, keep the paycheck job as long as you can. Keep it, even if you hate it, until you HAVE to make a decision about working as a Founder or as an Employee. The longer that paycheck is coming in, the longer you'll be able to survive on ramen profitability. The more money you save (you're going into this with savings, right?) the better you'll fare in thin times.Working for the man sucks, but running a struggling business while barely surviving can be worse. Running a struggling business with financial cushion can mean the difference between succeeding and failing.

antoinealb超过 7 年前

Be careful, many contracts contain parts that give full ownership of what you make on company time to your employer. You might loose your dream if you are not careful.

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andkon超过 7 年前

I don't think you're the only one. I think that, outside of being careful to not be caught, it's pretty okay. The only real thing I'd caution is that it's especially soul deadening to be in a job that legitimately uses so little of your skills and captures so little of your interest. If it's possible for you to live merely off of the side biz income, I'd say make the leap and quit your job.You'd be changing comfort for urgency and meaning, imo, and as long as it's financially sustainable, I'd say that's a good tradeoff.

FLUX-YOU超过 7 年前

- shitty enterprise software, on one of the worst code bases I've ever seen- Managers are very hands-off here, not many meetings eitherI was in a similar spot. You can get away with a ton of stuff in an environment like this, but as you've probably guessed, it will quickly bore you or the code base will invoke tears. Bonus if they let you work from home, and they probably would if you come up with a decent reason.Check your IP agreement, because someone doing due diligence on your Android/SaaS business will find that out if you ever plan to exit with your new companies.I'd be interested if you could 're-launch' your products with a clean version control history to sneak out from underneath an IP agreement since your current employer likely doesn't have any interest or any code from you regarding those unless you've told them. That would be a lawyer question though.Ethically, you should still keep enough working knowledge so that you don't fall into incompetence, and realize you may need to do occasional crunch-time which should get 100% of your attention.In my not-so-humble opinion, it's up to the business to assess your skills and make use of them, so by only handing you work which you can easily accomplish, you are fulfilling your responsibilities to your employer. This ultimately hurts you more than them because it ends up being low-quality stuff for your resume and you have to do more stretching of the truth. The business is already stretching the truth likely by promoting the shitty code base as a good product.Naturally, they won't be happy to find out you've been taking advantage of them, so I wouldn't ever bring up your Android/SaaS stuff or your free time around anyone.

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hutzlibu超过 7 年前

I don't think the hourly base of being paid doesn't work for programming anyway. There are hours when I get done a lot and on other times I just sit for hours on something and do things, but accomplish nothing. What matters is the result. So if they are happy with your results, even though you are only giving 60%, I think it is OK.But quit as soon as possible and do something you really want! You only have limited lifetime, don't throw it away ... (even if you get money for it)

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d0m超过 7 年前

I mean, it's illegal and you're lying to your employer.. so in the end it's about your morale sense.. it doesn't matter much what other people do or think of it.A somewhat stupid analogy is like saying "I'm killing people in my spare time. I get that it's wrong, but that hasn't stopped me from doing it. Am I the only one that does this?" If you find other people doing it won't make it more legal ;-)

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barrkel超过 7 年前

As long as you're not violating your contract with your employer, it puts you in a better position down the road, right?Employers have so much more negotiating power than employees that I find it extremely hard to feel sorry for them / blame employees in this kind of a situation. Obviously, if you're looking to make a difference in the company, or get promoted, or build experience you can use elsewhere, it's the wrong way to go. It may not be the best route to personal happiness either (making customers happy is probably key there, if you are in contact with customers). But it's your life, and once you leave the company everything you built there belongs to someone else. I don't see why anyone needs to pour their soul into building someone else's capital, in a moral sense.

friendly_chap超过 7 年前

I personally know of a somewhat successful AI company that was built by my coworkers while they were employed at our current company.They eventually got caught and fired but that didn't stop them from raising a couple of hundred K seed round.You are definitely not the only one.

sameers超过 7 年前

If you really know your stuff, enough to build good apps and a successful business, then it's possible that a smart enough co-worker (manager or not) will notice a gap between that potential, and your output. So "can I get away" seems to me equivalent to, "will they notice, and if so, does it matter to them?"The answers to those questions will vary over time as your employer's business itself changes. Your worst case scenario is "Yes/Yes," ofc, and best-case is "No/Irrelevant." Reality is probably somewhere in the middle. I have seen cases where someone like you got "noticed," because a peer who didn't care about a side business out-competed them at work performance. No one was malicious in this equation; once "Mary" got going with her natural enthusiasm, it just became obvious that "Joe" was being paid too much. "Joe" got a bit of talking-to; he decided to quit.If your W-2 income is critical to you, for whatever reason, you want to keep an eye on this whole situation. If the energy spent in keeping an eye on that drains you from pursuing your business goals, then it's not worth it to you to get away with it, even if you do.If you are weighing moral qualms, don't fall into the trap of over simplifying it in either direction. No, you probably don't work for a "soulless" corporation that doesn't care about your creativity and thinks you are dispensable yada yada; but no, you didnt sign some sort of pledge of absolute allegiance either when you joined (but yeah, you did sign something that would give your employer property rights to your business, under certain circs, and it's again not a given whether they'll exercise this right if they can.)Short version: it depends :)

rapfaria超过 7 年前

Why not quit the job and be fair to both yourself and the business that hired you? It's just like a relationship, leave if it's not working. The end of any relationship can be liberating in so many aspects.

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noonespecial超过 7 年前

Just imagine all of the coders that came before you that worked very hard on that project and made it worse. Your managers might be happy to finally see someone fubar-ing at a much reduced rate!

normalocity超过 7 年前

I think that's how a lot of developer-built businesses start.

nicodjimenez超过 7 年前

No you're not the only person that's gone through this. If you work at a 9-5 and you're not doing this or focused on your friends / family / hobby or creative projects then maybe you're wasting the valuable little time you have on this earth. Big corporations exist precisely because they can afford the large inefficiencies that come from having a lot of people not really care much.Now as far as quitting your job, that depends on how much savings you have, your historical ability to deal with extreme chaos, stress and uncertainty, and how much you realistically believe you can grow the business. Some business are great part time but difficult to scale.Don't overthink it and just do what feels right. Remember that doing the wrong thing can end up being the right thing 10 years down the line.

firstplacelast超过 7 年前

In my experience, the CxO's would likely chuckle if they found out (AND all your actual work is being done 100%). Middle management would likely not be very happy.I used to spend at least half my day wandering around our campus because I could get everything done in 2 hours and would typically do another 2 hours because that would double my output. I couldn't get a 400% raise and I was satisfied with the amount of work I did, management wouldn't fire me because I was providing them with an awesome deal, etc.I didn't tell them I did not work half the day. There's a lot of unspoken bullshit in the corporate would, normally it works against employees and I think it's okay for it to work for you sometimes, too.

sodapopcan超过 7 年前

I empathize with your position very much, but I think you should reconsider your attitude of, "I don't enjoy my job (but who does)". I have worked on small teams building software that, even tho it's a job, we all really care about and learn together. I agree with those who suggested that you should find a new job OR quit and focus on your side-businesses full time.Thinking more positively about the idea that a job can be fun will also work in your favour if your side businesses take off and you need to start hiring. You want to know how to spot and get-along with developers who actually care lest you end up with a team of people who will do to you what you are doing to your current employer.

throwaway777007超过 7 年前

Definitely not alone. I'm basically doing the same thing although none of my side projects are anywhere near as prpfitable.

ufmace超过 7 年前

Ethically, it's a bit dicey. I wouldn't feel great about working for an employer and deliberately slacking off or working on personal stuff most of the time. But then many employers are full of practices that are just as dicey on the ethical scale, if not more.I lean towards, if you're in a situation where you have to do something ethically dubious to survive, then go ahead, as long as you're spending some effort on getting out of the situation. If you're making a legitimate effort to get out of the situation rather than wallowing in it, then you're clean enough in my book.Do double-check your IP though. Depending on your country/state and any contracts you may have signed, your employer may have a legal right to things you have worked on. If the situation is at all unclear, it's worth a consultation with an appropriate lawyer to review your situation and be aware of what could happen if you ever try to take investment or get acquired.

mkonecny超过 7 年前

"working for the man". This "man" is paying for you to do a job. You don't have to do it if you don't want to, you can go back and live at your parents house.Excuse me if I'm sounding rude but you sound very young, and unaware that what you are doing is illegal and seem to have misplaced resentment

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hennsen超过 7 年前

I have some kind of understanding for what you're doing because I've seen many enterprise projects where the organization of the project, the way they work and care for properly engineered software, the bureaucracy that makes the simplest step complicated and all these things create an environment that reduces my productivity to 1-10% (yes, that's what left not how much is taken from the 100%!) so that acting this way would actually not even result in a noticeable lesser productivity. I also thought about spending time like this that I 'm otherwise waiting for bureaucracy steps to happen so I can go ahead. But somehow I feel it's not ok. I need to find projects that suit and motivate me better, or save some money and take a while off to work on my thing.

born2web超过 7 年前

I had a couple of employees working for me that used to do this... for more than three years they used to do the bare minimum (1-2 hours/day at most) ... I used to try to motivate/nudge them to at least automate parts of the work they were doing so that we could make a product (SaaS) offering out of it and provide that to additional clients and grow the business (of which all of us would benefit with generous profit sharing)... being a small business owner, i couldn't risk losing them... so I carried a fair amount of their load... Finding balanced people involves lot of luck as well!

Piskvorrr超过 7 年前

I do wonder where the line is. Not in the ethical sense, logically: do you expect to run your business as a one-man-show forever? If not, paranoia ahead: you'll see your employees as yourself-the-employee.

keyboardhitter超过 7 年前

I'm sure you're not the only one. Do you ever worry that your side project won't be as interesting if you ever stop working for the man? "Want what you can't have" and all that?

ivanhoe超过 7 年前

They're paying you for the amount of the work done and if they're OK with the progress I don't see a problem. Perhaps you're just more productive than the others who work harder?

santoshalper超过 7 年前

Be careful, you almost certainly signed a document saying anything you make during business hours is their property.

ScottBurson超过 7 年前

You would be on a better ethical and legal footing if you quit your job and switched to contracting. You might possibly even be able to contract with your current employer. Of course, the downside of contracting is that you have to spend a good fraction of your time finding and negotiating work.

letsgo-gb超过 7 年前

Get married and have children and then you won't be complaining about the codebase.

tyrex2017超过 7 年前

if it is a healthy company they will figure you out and throw you away once it becomes convenient.if it is a bad company, you might get away with that, but you will miss on a lot of learnigs, earnings and networking if you stay there.in both cases, i believe you should make a change.personally, i would be too compassionate to the company’s success, and too paranoid on improving my own job security and salary to ever think about doing what you do. i am not judging though.

sireat超过 7 年前

If you are producing roughly in line with everyone else then your 40% might be enough to last a few years.Still expect to be fired suddenly.

mr_spothawk超过 7 年前

I quit working for the man, and focusing on getting to ramen profitability is hard and scary.Way to keep a paycheck :)

arseraptor超过 7 年前

So, tell us. What are your SAAS business/Apps about? (broad area)

rmcilmoyle超过 7 年前

WOW!, what happened to personal integrity? If you think what you're doing is right then forward this thread to your boss. I assume you put the same integrity into your "dream" work; with that said I would advise all to avoid whatever you publish as you won't apparently put any more in than you think you can get away with.