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Advice for Coding Bootcamp Graduates

38 点作者 wayofthesamurai超过 7 年前

20 条评论

shawndrost超过 7 年前
I am a cofounder of a bootcamp (Hack Reactor) that teaches Big O. I believe our average grad knows more about it than I did when I graduated with a CS degree.<p>Some comments:<p>1. If you&#x27;re a bootcamp grad, be aware that impostor syndrome &#x2F; low confidence &#x2F; &quot;maybe I&#x27;ll be ready to interview after I take one more class&quot; is a FAR GREATER RISK than not knowing big o. When you read an essay like this, consider it as useful input. Big O is useful, and is a special point of interest to interviewers, but do NOT listen to any of the voices (especially those in your head) telling you &quot;you&#x27;re not a real engineer until you XYZ&quot;. So, by all means, internalize this essay if your takeaway is &quot;nudge big o up on the study list&quot;. Reject this essay and everything it stands for if your takeaway is &quot;I am not ready to be a software engineer yet&quot;.<p>2. A dissenting viewpoint from me: this is good advice for interviewees, but interviewer focus on Big O &#x2F; data structures &#x2F; etc is a part of the same culture that fetishizes CS degrees from tier-1 schools and mistakenly believes that the most difficult&#x2F;valuable part of software engineering is computer science. In reality, the most difficult&#x2F;valuable parts of software engineering are craftsmanship (measured in decades of real work, not built at schools except those named waterloo) and working effectively in teams. Big O is not uniquely useful to your work or uniquely difficult to learn on-the-job. You should study it anyway because many interviewers believe that it is.
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t0mbstone超过 7 年前
I&#x27;ve been doing full stack web programming and server administration for the past 20 years, and I almost never encounter &quot;Big O&quot; notation and algorithm problem solving except in interviews.<p>99% of the things I have built in the past (and continue to build on a daily basis) consist of just gluing things like APIs together, or building user interfaces that essentially just allow users to display and modify data in various databases.<p>I&#x27;ve had to learn tools like Docker, Git, Travis, Ansible, and Kubernetes. I&#x27;ve had to be able to learn the basics of languages like Javascript and Python and Ruby in a matter of months or even weeks. I&#x27;ve had to pick up frameworks like Angular and React and whatever new shiny thing exists, at the drop of a hat.<p>I have built large web-based software projects that power multi-million dollar companies, and that handle millions of users on a daily basis.<p>I don&#x27;t have a college degree, and my knowledge of advanced math ends at Algebra. But that didn&#x27;t stop me from assembling and launching a machine learning platform for the company I work for.<p>But yeah. I don&#x27;t know shit about algorithms or your &quot;Big O&quot; that you love so dearly and love to judge every &quot;programmer&quot; by.
wootie512超过 7 年前
Bootcamp dev here:<p>The camp I went to was very small and went under after my class graduated. There were just 4 of us in the class. 2 of us now are devs. The other guy who became a dev had a good amount of IT experience coming in, but needed more hands on work with development. The other students just weren&#x27;t picking up the stuff fast enough and quickly fell behind and didn&#x27;t recover. I have met a decent amount of people from other camps that had similar experiences, sometimes coding isn&#x27;t for everyone.<p>After graduation, I had to do a few more months of solo studying&#x2F;project work before I reached hire-able level. I got lucky and got hired by a startup that needed a junior dev ASAP. I had a great boss at this startup and learned a lot while also getting the chance to work on features.<p>Now getting work is easy because I have worked before.<p>TLDR: You have to put in more work than just the bootcamp to go from no experience to hire-able. And some people just aren&#x27;t made to be devs, and they may be able to get into a boot camp but they won&#x27;t be able to contribute when hired. Hopefully I don&#x27;t come off as conceited&#x2F;cocky, but that&#x27;s just my 2 cents.
dglass超过 7 年前
Slightly off topic, but I&#x27;m working on putting together a newsletter aimed at career advice for junior software engineers and bootcamp graduates. It will focus more on the soft skills side of engineering. I&#x27;ve gained enough experience in my career where I feel I can offer advice for career advancement for people just starting out their careers. It&#x27;s something I never had when I first started and I haven&#x27;t been able to find a lot of solid advice more than a blog post here and there.<p>If you&#x27;re interested you can take a look at the first post and subscribe if you think it would he helpful. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;exponentialbackoff.substack.com&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;exponentialbackoff.substack.com&#x2F;</a>
wccrawford超过 7 年前
My advice for them?<p>Don&#x27;t tell people you paid for a coding bootcamp.<p>Without fail, every single &quot;code bootcamp&quot; that has applied for a job here has had a horrible resume. They didn&#x27;t have <i>anything</i> on their resume that wasn&#x27;t from the bootcamp, and even that was horrible.<p>And they generally failed our &quot;use Flickr&#x27;s API to get some images&quot; test that we give out. Miserably.<p>I think we ended up interviewing 1 of them, out of dozens, and they just weren&#x27;t worth trying out.<p>So now, when I see that on a resume, I groan. I still go look at whatever&#x27;s on their Github, but I&#x27;m already primed to fail them. They would have been better off having nothing on the resume and <i>anything</i> in their portfolio.
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FLUX-YOU超过 7 年前
This article treads lightly around calling bootcamp grads inferior on average, when actually, very little is standing between the company itself turning the bootcamp grads into the engineers that they want.<p>After all, you already have ample evidence someone can learn software development concepts on a compressed timeline compared to college, surely another week or so covering time&#x2F;space complexity and data structures topics is worth the time if the candidate is otherwise a good fit.<p>But I don&#x27;t know, maybe their idea of junior development tasks is &quot;find and fix deadlock or race condition that occurs 0.00001% of the time&quot;
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songzme超过 7 年前
I started this non-profit to address the bootcamp problem: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;garagescript.org&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;garagescript.org&#x2F;</a><p>After trying out different methods of teaching, here&#x27;s what works for us: 1. We do peer to peer teaching. If a student learns arrays, he&#x2F;she is in charge of teaching it to new students. This builds the ability to communicate technically.<p>2. Students are code reviewed from the first line of code they write. As challenges get harder, inefficiencies are caught through code reviews and explained to them by their mentors.<p>3. Rather than building their own ideas, students build products that everyone on the team use on a daily basis. We have our own internal hosting, our own email, stackoverflow, and student progress, all built by the team of students. By making students work together on one big project that runs exactly like an engineering team (with sprint planning, code reviews, project discussions), students not only get work experience but also get to learn with others through trial-by-fire. Its incredibly fun for everyone.<p>4. Since we are so young, we have only graduated 3 students, but each of them love their jobs and were able to jump right in to their issues and get stuff done. They were also able to have in-depth discussions with their teammates.<p>Having worked with so many engineers, I personally value technical soft skills. When I work with engineers who can communicate &#x2F; collaborate well, I feel that I can teach them anything.
foroak超过 7 年前
After going through a web dev bootcamp myself where we actually devoted a decent amount of time to algorithms and their time&#x2F;space complexity -- this has been the thing I have used the least in my professional career.
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passivepinetree超过 7 年前
The author has the right idea. The company I work at hires junior engineers somewhat regularly, and the quality of bootcamp grads varies wildly. It&#x27;d be awesome to see additional CS courses on a resumé, as fundamentals like time&#x2F;space complexity are usually the biggest weaknesses of the bootcamp grads we interview.
FLUX-YOU超过 7 年前
Google Cached: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;webcache.googleusercontent.com&#x2F;search?q=cache:soISHS9sP6EJ:https:&#x2F;&#x2F;thinkfaster.co&#x2F;2018&#x2F;02&#x2F;my-advice-for-coding-bootcamp-graduates&#x2F;+&amp;cd=1&amp;hl=en&amp;ct=clnk&amp;gl=us" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;webcache.googleusercontent.com&#x2F;search?q=cache:soISHS...</a>
jpzisme超过 7 年前
I&#x27;m a bootcamp grad and am about to finish my first year as a dev at a well-known, medium size start-up in San Francisco.<p>The advice the author gives is spot on. Taking the time after finishing the program, working through multiple algo textbooks, and taking an online course on data structures and algorithms definitely helped seal the deal.<p>To those deriding bootcamps, you are missing out on lots of great developers. The trick is to determine whether the individual worked hard during&#x2F;after the bootcamp.<p>Lastly, if you&#x27;re considering a bootcamp, do your homework, pick a good one, and work relentlessly (I was there generally 8am-11pm every day). It has turned out to be one of the best decisions I&#x27;ve ever made in my life.
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who_is_firing超过 7 年前
I am a bootcamp grad with several years of experience now. I agree with the article that the two of the weakest areas for bootcamp grads are data structures and algorithms.<p>However, my advice would be to interview at places that have focus less on these areas instead of taking coursework. At the end of the day if you are bootcamp grad you are probably not in the financial situation to take extra coursework. It&#x27;s better to lower your standards a bit to get your first job and then pick up these skills on the job.<p>You will still have to grind out algorithm prep by using sites like Leetcode and Cracking the Coding Interview, but it&#x27;s probably a better idea to focus on companies that focus less on this area.
meri_dian超过 7 年前
&quot;Error establishing database connection&quot;
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focusgroup0超过 7 年前
Have interviewed a bunch of bootcampers. Goal is to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. Without fail, they lack the fundamental knowledge needed to excel. Not because the classes or assignments are bad, but because there is so much hard-earned experience and &quot;instinct&quot; that only comes with time in front of a keyboard.
matty22超过 7 年前
The advice to include online MOOC courses on your CV runs counter to every piece of advice I&#x27;ve ever received in regards to putting online courses on a CV. I&#x27;ve always been told that that is seen as a red flag and that you might get docked &#x27;points&#x27; for having something like that on a resume.
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mnm1超过 7 年前
In over a dozen years as a professional web developer, I&#x27;ve never once needed to use Big O notation outside of an interview. Sounds like this guy doesn&#x27;t know how to interview, knows that he doesn&#x27;t know, but still doesn&#x27;t want to admit it. No wonder he can&#x27;t find anyone.
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starpilot超过 7 年前
&gt; A coding bootcamp person could perform as well as a CS graduate if he or she took 2 more courses:<p>&gt; 1. Data Structures and Algorithms<p>&gt; 2. Probability and Statistics.<p>&gt; You could take them at either a community college or online for minimal expense.<p>Are there any specific online courses for these subjects that you recommend?
DataWorker超过 7 年前
Coders who don’t have enough statistical expertise is a problem why? I understand the importance of O notation, but didn’t know that stats&#x2F;probability was important for things like web design and other coding jobs. Can someone help me understand this part?
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cholantesh超过 7 年前
Curious as to where this demographic gets hired, as it is rare for me to find a JD out there that doesn&#x27;t ask for a degree in comp sci&#x2F;soft eng.
magice超过 7 年前
&quot;if you take one of the 6 month programs, you’ll get a similar amount of experience as in an undergrad curriculum.&quot;<p>I am sorry, what?<p>Look, I know that people are all about &quot;disrupting&quot; the world. But, for the love of hard-work and whatever goodness left in your heart, can you please stop insulting people?<p>I once worked as TA for an introductory class in Computer Science. It takes about a semester for students to wrap their heads about what is &quot;programming.&quot; It takes at minimum another semester of honest to goodness to absorb the fundamentals of computer science (incl. formal languages, basic complexity theories, and basic algorithm). It takes at least another semester to work through how the computer (you know, the silicon?) works.<p>Of course, I have only talked about the theory side the programming world. A good CS program also needs to introduce at least 2 (if not 3: one introductory, one system, one industrial) programming languages, plus at least 3 paradigms (corresponding the languages above: functional, system&#x2F;procedural, and OOP), plus some discussion over the industry. And they should ensure that the students get stock overflow at least once, infinite loops at least a few times, and (on the verge of?) kicking their classmates&#x2F;teammates at least once on some stupid bugs.<p>More challenges: a brain isn&#x27;t a hard drive. Cramming is about the worst way possible to induce understanding. All of these above need time and space to work themselves through various layers of consciousness.<p>(BTW, all of the above are just the basics; if you notice, I have not brought up any &quot;sexy&quot; topics like networking or cloud computing or AI or what-have-you)<p>Imagine for a minute: what happens if a person walks up to newly minted chemical or mechanical or even electrical engineers and tells them that their 4 years of education can be done in 6 months. What would the new engineers think? Well, here is the nice version: such &quot;disrupter&quot; is laughed out of the room. The less nice version involves some honor-defense beating. The pragmatic version probably involves some lawsuits over how such claim is a fraud and may endanger the consumers (not to mention co-workers).<p>And yet, here we are. Software engineers, who spent years to acquire immensely complicated skills, are forced to sit through and agree with such insults, then to give comments like &quot;oh yeah, maybe you should learn more about big-O notation.&quot; You know what I think about big-O notation? It&#x27;s about as useful as calculus. Remember, doing something twice does NOT cost as much as doing it once (and this is before factor in goodies like cache miss and waiting for OS and whatnots). It&#x27;s like push-ups: good mental exercise, but not actually used. So, telling someone &quot;you need to learn big-O notation after 6-month bootcamp&quot; is like saying &quot;learn football for 6 months, add some push-ups, and you are ready for NFL.&quot; Am I the only one finding this ridiculous?