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Canada to Scrap IBM Payroll Plan Gone Awry Costing $1B

417 点作者 RmDen大约 7 年前

53 条评论

dctoedt大约 7 年前
Reminiscent of the state of Indiana&#x27;s lawsuit against IBM for allegedly botching a project to automate the state&#x27;s welfare system — lots of finger-pointing on both sides; the trial court&#x27;s 65-page decision started out with the words, &quot;Neither party deserves to win this case&quot; [0]. The case has been up to the Indiana Supreme Court already [1]; on remand last summer, the trial court found that IBM is liable for USD $128 million [2].<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.scribd.com&#x2F;document&#x2F;100544020&#x2F;Indiana-IBM-Decision" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.scribd.com&#x2F;document&#x2F;100544020&#x2F;Indiana-IBM-Decisi...</a><p>[1] <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.in.gov&#x2F;judiciary&#x2F;opinions&#x2F;pdf&#x2F;03221601shd.pdf" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.in.gov&#x2F;judiciary&#x2F;opinions&#x2F;pdf&#x2F;03221601shd.pdf</a><p>[2] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.indystar.com&#x2F;story&#x2F;news&#x2F;2017&#x2F;08&#x2F;07&#x2F;court-ibm-owes-state-128-m-welfare-privatization-dispute&#x2F;544789001&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.indystar.com&#x2F;story&#x2F;news&#x2F;2017&#x2F;08&#x2F;07&#x2F;court-ibm-owe...</a>
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watertom大约 7 年前
I was the CTO for a large, Fortune 100 company.<p>When I first took over the position I would regularly get requirements documents for internal projects that were 3 or 400 hundred pages. The project team would dutifully carry out the requirements gathering process, everything was meticulously documented, with data flows, and process maps, etc. Everything was a requirement, everything was mandatory, and everything had top priority. IT wasn’t allowed to say no, wasn’t allowed to criticize the business, and wasn’t allowed to analyze if what was specified made sense, or would work. Luckily I had a CIO that was willing to back me up when I started rejecting these projects. In six months I killed 10 or so very large multi-year software projects, in each case the business was forced to use existing software and change their processes. We saved a ton of money and implemented the solutions in weeks not years. These would have projects that had upwards of 100 people for 2, 3 or 4 years, all because the business wanted a “perfect” process.<p>I consulted to the DoD and this pattern was repeated, over and over again.<p>Most assuredly this is what happened with the Canadian Payroll project. Every person had their pet requirement(s) and they made sure they “got them in”, in the end the system that was specified couldn’t be built.<p>It’s like SAP, if you buy SAP take it out of the box and adapt your processes to SAP, if you do you’ll have great experience. If you try to customize SAP, it going to get very expensive, you’ll have a ton of problems, you won’t be able to take upgrades and hou’ll Need a ton of staff just go try to keep it running day in and day out.
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goodroot大约 7 年前
As a Canadian who has worked at IBM, I&#x27;m not surprised that this didn&#x27;t find success. In IBMs defense, I don&#x27;t believe our public sector has the experience or aptitude required to act as a supporting interface for a job of this scale.<p>With that being said, IBM isn&#x27;t a successful technology company with a proven record building good software products. They were an unwise choice from the get-go. IBM is a successful financial engineering and sales firm that sells things, then scrambles to hire&#x2F;acquires to get things done to an ever-evolving, always justifiably rough spec. They quack and then start the hack-show.<p>What do you expect from the organization that invented &quot;FUD&quot; (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Fear,_uncertainty_and_doubt" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Fear,_uncertainty_and_doubt</a>) as a way to emotionally manipulate perspective clients into making a purchasing decision?
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zaroth大约 7 年前
Not having ever worked on anything like this, the death knell for these projects must be the inability to ever reduce functionality into a reasonable core set. Basically the 80&#x2F;20 rule but where there are practically an infinite number of edge cases that stretch the project on indefinitely?<p>You could serve 80% of the payroll burden with software that cost $10m. 90% coverage costs $100m. 98% costs $1,000m. And 100% costs $∞
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jellicle大约 7 年前
Incidentally, the error was here:<p>&quot;The project was meant to save costs by firing 1,200 employees handling payroll at various departments around the country and replacing them with about 500 people in a centralized location using Phoenix to handle most of the government’s payroll needs.&quot;<p>It&#x27;s not software problems, or not primarily software problems anyway. They fired EVERYONE who knew anything about payroll in the entire Canadian government, all at once, and hired 500 brand new people in one call center to work with the brand new software as it rolled out. The new software doesn&#x27;t include code for a lot of &quot;special cases&quot; which together represent a lot of cases. The new people have no idea how to solve most pay problems (people problems OR software problems). They get four days of training.<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.cbc.ca&#x2F;news&#x2F;canada&#x2F;ottawa&#x2F;phoenix-falling-pay-centre-miramichi-1.3687476" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.cbc.ca&#x2F;news&#x2F;canada&#x2F;ottawa&#x2F;phoenix-falling-pay-cen...</a><p>&quot;Phoenix was supposed to cut our work in half. It actually doubled our work. So, you can&#x27;t get rid of 2,000 people ... and double the work and expect the work to get done,&quot; one said.&quot;<p>Overall, even if the software worked <i>perfectly</i> the execution would have been a disaster.
kabdib大约 7 年前
Was not surprised to see Oracle and PeopleSoft involved.<p>I hope they get the crap sued out of them. That stuff is toxic, and I pity any organization that Oracle got its claws into using that junk.
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manofstick大约 7 年前
New Zealand in the 90&#x27;s was trying to have an integrated policing system designed by IBM which burnt a lot of money (in the order of 100 million) and was abandoned [0].<p>I was working with one of the companies that came along to replace one part of the system with a much smaller component that just handled that individual piece and vividly remember the meeting with the IBM team. They had no code to show me, but they handed my a massive folder - probably verging on 10cm thick of use case diagrams. So many little stick figures staring up at me I was awestruck - but not in a positive way!<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;INCIS" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;INCIS</a>
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erpellan大约 7 年前
The real achievement here is managing to run up a bill of 1B CAD while still failing to deliver. I mean, I can think of a few projects that probably cost several million&#x2F;yr but 100x? Astonishing.<p>There&#x27;s an anecdote floating around about the consultant who heard of a billion-dollar government IT project who promptly offered to do it for 20 million. When asked how, they replied that they would sit on a beach for 5 years then pick up the phone and say, &quot;We failed&quot;. Their contact got back in touch 5 years later and said, &quot;I wish we&#x27;d given it to you&quot;.
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kellysutton大约 7 年前
This sounds like a good application of Gall&#x27;s Law:<p>A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simple system that worked. A complex system designed from scratch never works and cannot be patched up to make it work. You have to start over with a working simple system.
didgeoridoo大约 7 年前
The name is just too perfect: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amazon.com&#x2F;Phoenix-Project-DevOps-Helping-Business-ebook&#x2F;dp&#x2F;B00AZRBLHO" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amazon.com&#x2F;Phoenix-Project-DevOps-Helping-Busine...</a><p>To that point, I’m wondering if all IT initiatives codenamed “Phoenix” are doomed from the start, given that the implication is “let’s burn down everything we have that works, and rise anew from the ashes”...
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vidanay大约 7 年前
So, what makes a payroll system at this scale so difficult? On the face of it, there are salary employees and there are hourly employees. How many taxing bodies does Canada have? Federal, provincial, and municipal? Is that a few dozen or a few hundred? Is Canadian tax code crazy complicated that doesn&#x27;t allow for a rules based system?<p>I&#x27;m honestly curious as to how a &quot;simple&quot; payroll system can go so far off the rails.
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nradov大约 7 年前
For historical perspective on another (in)famous payroll system project I encourage developers to read about the Chrysler C3 project. It ultimately failed, and yet provided the genesis of some agile development best practices that most of us use today.<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;wiki.c2.com&#x2F;?WasChryslerComprehensiveCompensationSuccess" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;wiki.c2.com&#x2F;?WasChryslerComprehensiveCompensationSucc...</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Chrysler_Comprehensive_Compensation_System" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Chrysler_Comprehensive_Compens...</a><p>These things are hard to get right in any complex enterprise.
blantonl大约 7 年前
<i>The software platform itself, a heavily modified version of Oracle’s PeopleSoft program ...</i><p>What implementation of Peoplesoft <i>isn&#x27;t</i> heavily modified?<p>Adapting business processes to COTS software packages is extremely challenging. Anyone remember the absolute <i>bank</i> that Peoplesoft consultants made back in the day when ERP and Business Process Re-engineering was all the rage?
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patio11大约 7 年前
Cross-posting a comment I made from 7 years ago when NYC&#x27;s payroll project blew up: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=2716319" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=2716319</a> which I last cross-posted to the thread about Phoenix&#x27;s payroll project blowing up: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=15303555" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=15303555</a>
dman大约 7 年前
Could this be the first time someone gets fired for hiring IBM? (Sorry could not resist after having heard of that quip so many times).
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bloomingfractal大约 7 年前
and that&#x27;s why governments should hire software engineers that can be in the loop and understand not only the technical but the policy side. Hiring an army of contractors earning 300k&#x2F;year to deliver &quot;something&quot; in the waterfall model is a recipe for disaster.
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giarc大约 7 年前
So it doesn&#x27;t have to be this way.<p>I work for Alberta Health Services, we have 120,000 employees across the province. There are likely 5 separate unions plus out of scope staff (management). This organization was created after the merger of 5 separate health care organizations all with separate systems etc. They over time rolled everyone into the same pay system and I didn&#x27;t hear about a single person missing their pay. The federal government transition has resulted in tons of people being not paid at all, being paid too little or being paid too much.
lopmotr大约 7 年前
&quot;there is reputational risk for IBM in not helping us fix this,”&quot; - not true. IBM has a long history of exactly this kind of problem. Canada didn&#x27;t care about their existing poor reputation and the next government to hire them won&#x27;t either.
endorphone大约 7 年前
The Canadian government attempted to build a gun registry, originally predicting it to cost $12M, then $85M, then $1000M, then $2000M, and then it was scrapped. While it&#x27;s easy to blame vendors like IBM, I have to imagine feature-creep and &quot;what about&quot;-isms lead to such monstrosities.
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myrandomcomment大约 7 年前
This is sad. IBM used to be the watch word for &quot;It just works!&quot; I started at IBM many years ago. When I went to my 1st ISP (back in the early 90s) and things broke I was like &quot;what do you mean it broke? How is this okay?&quot; It was quite a shock to move from a company where we had systems with 20+ years of uptime to having reboot the USENET server every 5 days.
j45大约 7 年前
The comments made about the government about excluding IBM from making future systems for the government stood out.<p>The reality is payroll should be executed by payroll specialists. I recently had to research payroll providers and there are players who service 20-30% of the Canadian population already.<p>This is another sign of folks not knowing how to source, design, oversee or implement software implementations.
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Analemma_大约 7 年前
It&#x27;s been a <i>long</i> time since I&#x27;ve heard about any successful projects coming out of IBM&#x27;s consulting and services businesses. Mostly it&#x27;s one headline after another like this- &quot;Billion dollar project scrapped&quot;. How much longer can they keep coasting on the reputation of what was, if we&#x27;re being honest, a completely different business that just happened to have the same name?
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walrus01大约 7 年前
Canadian here. This has become a huge political football. People are blaming the current Liberal government, when the project was started by the Harper Conservatives. The full extent of just how fucked up it is has just now become public knowledge.<p>It is also a political pork barrel project.<p>&gt; The project was meant to save costs by firing 1,200 employees handling payroll at various departments around the country and replacing them with about 500 people in a centralized location using Phoenix to handle most of the government’s payroll needs.<p>What&#x27;s not written there is that the decommissioned long gun registry was located in a rural part of New Brunswick. When it was killed by the conservatives, they had a big political issue on their hands because suddenly hundreds of federal government clerical workers were out of a job in this area. So what was the solution? Re-hire the same people and put them on the Phoenix payroll project. Never mind that not one of them had any experience with IBM, Oracle, PeopleSoft, payroll, finances, or anything else related. They wanted butts in chairs in front of keyboards and to keep those people on the federal workforce payroll.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.google.com&#x2F;search?num=100&amp;client=ubuntu&amp;hs=ssW&amp;channel=fs&amp;ei=6leYWpieE4PgjwOUsoGIAw&amp;q=long+gun+registry+new+brunswick+miramichi&amp;oq=long+gun+registry+new+brunswick+miramichi&amp;gs_l=psy-ab.3...6322.8176.0.8318.10.10.0.0.0.0.143.918.5j4.9.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..1.8.778...33i160k1j33i21k1.0.czpxz7HDuMU" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.google.com&#x2F;search?num=100&amp;client=ubuntu&amp;hs=ssW&amp;c...</a><p>quick edit, history lesson:<p>early 1990s, Chretien Liberals: we need a gun registry<p>liberal party: okay we passed a gun registry law<p>liberal party: we need a pork barrel project to make these people in small town new brunswick happy, let&#x27;s hire 500 people in miramichi<p>liberal party: this gun registry has now cost 400% of what was originally budgeted<p>liberal party, paul martin government loses an election to stephen harper and the conservative party<p>harper conservatives: we promise to scrap the long gun registry<p>harper conservatives: we&#x27;ve removed the long gun registry but now all these people are out of work and pissed off<p>harper conservatives: we need to overhaul our old payroll system that runs on a bunch of old minicomputers, let&#x27;s hire ibm<p>harper conservatives: let&#x27;s re-hire those people we fired and put the payroll center in small town new brunswick!<p>harper conservatives lose the 2015 elections<p>trudeau liberals: wtf is going on with this contract the previous government signed. wtf is going on with this clusterfuck of oracle, ibm, peoplesoft and porkbarrel politics of employing people who are not payroll specialists.<p>trudeau liberals, later on: seriously this is broken beyond repair
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fnordsensei大约 7 年前
It&#x27;s possible to infer from this that CA ordered an output from IBM, rather than an outcome.<p>IBM can claim that they have indeed delivered the <i>thing</i> that was ordered, while CA remain disappointed that the <i>effect</i> they had in mind is missing.<p>In Canada&#x27;s defense though, it&#x27;s sometimes hard to find someone who will even take on contracts of this magnitude. Getting good terms, even more so.
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cm2187大约 7 年前
Hard to have an opinion without knowing the details but from my little experience I feel like the reason why these big project fail is not so much because they are too complex, I am sure a good (not excellent) developper could come up with an algorithm and data structure generic enough to accomodate all corner cases. But because these big projects start from a preexisting solution (PeopleSoft in this case), that wasn’t designed for this particular complexity, so it requires orders more energy to go around its limitations, and the people staffed by the likes of IBM on these projects are usually project managers with little to no programming skills and little domain knowledge. So you end up with a disaster for things that aren’t that complicated (custom shifts for coast guards and prison guards doesn’t look like a hard computer science problem).
tboyd47大约 7 年前
&gt; The project was meant to save costs by firing 1,200 employees handling payroll at various departments around the country and replacing them with about 500 people in a centralized location using Phoenix to handle most of the government’s payroll needs.<p>&gt; The government will spend C$431 million to keep the program running in the near term, on top of C$460 million already spent to put Phoenix in place and fix the problems it generated.<p>So for each of the individual salaries Phoenix was supposed to eliminate, they spent C$600k ($500k USD) in up-front costs, and it will be another C$600k to clean up the mess. Turns out, software takes a lot of time and money to build. Who knew? I guess IBM didn&#x27;t. Or maybe they didn&#x27;t care?<p>Maybe there should be some kind of advisory board system for large software projects, made up of disinterested-yet-well-informed techies, similar to what exists for corporations.
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jorblumesea大约 7 年前
The whole big 4 IT consulting industry needs to die a swift death. It&#x27;s basically institutionalized corruption. Overbill the client, under deliver with shoddy products made overseas, get that vendor lock in and watch the money flow in. The cost savings are largely an illusion sold by false promises of a better world.
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makecheck大约 7 年前
Sometimes I wonder how these projects are started; is it really that they go straight to “here’s a binding contract for millions”, without having them do any smaller projects in between?<p>If it were me, at the very <i>least</i> I would start with something small and say: “deliver this, let me see how it works, give me every last line of code for further inspection, then we’ll talk more”. I mean, have them build a mini-site or something and make sure that they’re competent before unleashing them on <i>the entire payroll system</i>, right? And you don’t need some grand familiarity with the software industry to plan that way, it just makes sense to start smaller and make sure you know who you’re really dealing with (and also spending less money if it fails).
guyzero大约 7 年前
I hope to someday read a comprehensive post-mortem but I doubt there&#x27;s anyone involved who can&#x2F;would write one without a lot of bias against the other parties involved. This will go down in an annals of massive software project failures.
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redleggedfrog大约 7 年前
IBM?! Oracle?! And you got away with only losing $780 million! Consider yourself lucky.
dalbasal大约 7 年前
We really need to rethink the metasystems around these kinds of projects. A $1bn government payroll project is like the canonical &quot;project that is guaranteed to suck&quot; but realistically this extends pretty widely.<p>These custom software builds, built around specific corporations, with all the sales and account management and expectation planning and making sure that *when&quot; this fails, it is the other party&#x27;s fault....<p>We need to find better ways of doing this stuff.
toomanybeersies大约 7 年前
To add to the list of failed (at least initially) payroll systems, we have New Zealand&#x27;s Ministry of Education and their Novopay system: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Novopay" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Novopay</a><p>It cost $180mm and was borderline non-functional, and then cost another $40mm to fix to its now functional state.<p>The same company that did Novopay also did the payroll for NZ Post and had similar issues.
verdverm大约 7 年前
I have payroll issues with IBM still. They overpaid me when I left, then they got my end date incorrect and wanted more back than they deserve. This has been ongoing for 7 months, they can&#x27;t seem to figure it out... just check the email logs, if they had any... They sent it to collections some time ago, now trying to get them to negotiate a payoff rather than dealing with IBM Employee &quot;services&quot;
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tw1010大约 7 年前
This reminds me of the part in the Robert Moses biography when he was made responsible over implementing a more meritocratic employee review system for the government. Just like this story, that one also ended in flames, though Moses made it out all right in the end. I wonder who the Moses character in this story was, and if we&#x27;ll read about it in a biography in a few decades.
ttt111222333大约 7 年前
&gt; Canada to scrap IBM payroll plan gone awry costing $1B. The Phoenix project was originally chosen by Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s Conservative predecessors 10 years ago to centralize the government payroll.<p>Is it me or is this wording terrible?<p>Trudeau is not a Conservative. It makes it sound like it is Trudeau&#x27;s party that caused the problem.
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PayrollIssues大约 7 年前
So: for anybody who is curious what&#x27;s actually going on here:<p>1. Problems are far bigger than the specific payroll software system. There were tens of thousands of outstanding cases in 2015 before the new system went live. There were tens of thousands of outstanding cases in 2012 when the project started. And there were tens of thousands of outstanding cases every year before that on the &quot;old great system&quot;. (why? read on)<p>2. IBM didn&#x27;t create a new system from scratch - Govt chose PeopleSoft HCM, an industry-leading system which reliably pays people day in and day out at thousands of customers. Base solution is not the core issue.<p>3. When you buy PeopleSoft (or SAP, or JDE, or whatever), ideally you make your business fit the system&#x27;s best practices, customize as little as possible. No client fully does it, but govt doesn&#x27;t even try. IBM, together with govt employees, spent five years trying to hammer several tens of thousands of complex time and labor rules from more than hundred labour agreements into the system.<p>3. Implementing this system was half of the initiative, other half was reducing workforce for compensation advisers and moving them all to NB, hiring new grads as replacements. Who were surprisingly not exactly intimately familiar with these hundred labor agreements and tens of thousands of time and labour rules. We&#x27;re talking one third of the support force at one tenth of experience.<p>4. So, the billion wasn&#x27;t spent on &quot;the system&quot;. It was mostly spent scrabling afterwards to re-hire old CA&#x27;s as expensive consultants and trying to catch up the damage.<p>5. Because guess what, garbage in, garbage out. If your manager doesn&#x27;t submit or approve your acting gig or leave of absence or maternity leave for several weeks, or months, or more, system won&#x27;t magically know about it. Not the old one, not the new one, not some magical future one.<p>If your HR person doesn&#x27;t create you as a new employee, you won&#x27;t get paid.<p>If you don&#x27;t submit your overtime slips on time, but instead collect them for 10 months so you can have &quot;Xmas bonus&quot;, that also MAY just may create an issue. Ditto with retirement applications. Secondments to other departments. And if through this all employee groups perform denial of service attacks on the system because this is all a political game, that may also be a problem.<p>There is a pervasive cultural issue that boggles mind as to why nobody does their HR things on time or correctly there. The system just provides useful target of the moment, but issues were there before and without cultural change they&#x27;ll be there in the future.<p>There are real problems and there are real people suffering because of them, and they have for decades, and yes it&#x27;s gotten worse. Grandstanding over some magical new systems won&#x27;t fix it though.<p>This is a burner account, I had the dubious privilege of working on this few years back and am aware of some of the horror stories - from the present and the past. I&#x27;ll stay the dear heck away from Federal Govt &#x2F; Public Sector project in the future if I can.
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hindsightbias大约 7 年前
&quot;ADP tech chief Stuart Sackman says his company is under constant attack globally and is hoping to encrypt more of its data using the new technology. A sixty year customer of IBM, ADP currently runs its largest domestic payroll engine on the systems, calculating 20 million paychecks per pay period, while also running its money movement, tax filing systems and cloud-based software suite on versions of the Z-series mainframes.&quot;<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.forbes.com&#x2F;sites&#x2F;alexkonrad&#x2F;2017&#x2F;07&#x2F;17&#x2F;ibm-seeks-boost-with-hacker-proof-mainframes&#x2F;#7304138ca9e8" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.forbes.com&#x2F;sites&#x2F;alexkonrad&#x2F;2017&#x2F;07&#x2F;17&#x2F;ibm-seeks...</a>
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CivBase大约 7 年前
Does anyone know what the real problem was here?<p>&gt; Some people were paid too much, others not at all. Those issues snowballed with the deluge of requests to fix incorrect paychecks.<p>&gt; IBM said it’s “fulfilling its obligations on the Phoenix contract, and the software is functioning as intended.”<p>Okay, so the cost is coming from incorrect paycheck values, but the software is working correctly?<p>Does that mean it&#x27;s human error? Can these issues be traced back to one or a few major instances of human error? Is this a widespread issue caused by a confusing or misleading UX design?<p>The article is quick to talk about the projects costs and failures as well as the politicians involved, but I can&#x27;t learn anything or blame anyone until I understand what went wrong.
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kitd大约 7 年前
Totally OT but<p><pre><code> The Phoenix project was originally chosen by Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s Conservative predecessors 10 years ago </code></pre> seems an odd way to refer to Stephen Harper&#x27;s government.
dgregd大约 7 年前
The only solution to tax &#x2F; accounting law and software problems is to create a reference accounting system and set it as a applicable law. In other words, to describe the law in unambiguous language.<p>Do we really have to write a law in the same way as Romans did? Math as a science made progress after it invented a new precise language for itself.<p>I&#x27;m not talking about the whole law. Only about that according to which the software is built. Since no one calculates taxes today by hand, it is worth to write the law so that it can be easily applied.
harry8大约 7 年前
Ibm global services, Accenture, computer associates, Oracle. See a company sign a big contact with them or their ilk, short that co. Their whole raison d&#x27;etre is to rip off old assholes in the c suite who can&#x27;t find the on switch of the company or government money they&#x27;re meant to be protecting.<p>Hiring these consulting firms should get you fired every single time. It&#x27;s a wonderful indicator of total incompetence. Notice how they&#x27;re all deep into Washington? Yeah. Makes me sick these companies exist.
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Murkin大约 7 年前
Would you sign to build a project who&#x27;s MVP is 260,000 salary calculations with rules poorly documented and spread other hundreds of agencies?<p>Maybe if they started with a subset and slowly built up..
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dagw大约 7 年前
Anybody have any insight on what it feels like working as consultant on such a huge failure? I (or my department, but honestly mostly me) once failed, as a consultant, to successfully deliver on a $50k contract and I felt like absolute shit for weeks and had trouble sleeping. I&#x27;d hate to think how it would feel to fail on this scale. Or is it a situation where the whole thing is so large and diffuse that no one can honestly be said to be responsible.
bitmapbrother大约 7 年前
I&#x27;m surprised there weren&#x27;t any financial penalties for the IBM practice of over promising and delivering a broken system that generates more problems than it solves. They underbid and embellish proposals with BS to get the contract, staff if with overseas workers to get the maximum return and then hope for the best. This is how IBM does business and it&#x27;s unfortunate that they continually get away with it by profiting on their incompetence.
moltar大约 7 年前
The Big Rewrite. What can go wrong?
ismail大约 7 年前
I am guessing one of the reasons is probably the software selected... oracle
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maerF0x0大约 7 年前
I wish governments would just get on with it and open source their functionality for those of us who want to &quot;serve our country&quot;
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nlolks大约 7 年前
Have you heard of Open Source? Government of France has. Enjoy the article. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.enterprisedb.com&#x2F;blog&#x2F;france-takes-lead-new-open-source-front" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.enterprisedb.com&#x2F;blog&#x2F;france-takes-lead-new-open...</a>
rmrfrmrf大约 7 年前
I&#x27;ve never seen a PeopleSoft implementation go well. It&#x27;s always underbaked and overpriced.
tandr大约 7 年前
I am genuine curious - Are there any recent examples of big, long but _successful_ projects that involves these 2 companies? (IBM and Oracle are mentioned in the article)
ll931110大约 7 年前
There seems to be a gap to fill for companies&#x2F;organizations building software for government. Wondering which reputable companies are filling this gap?
S_A_P大约 7 年前
Former ibm employees are even toxic. The cmo of openlink is a former ibm cloud marketer that has effectively run out the entire marketing staff
mathgladiator大约 7 年前
I wrote my own payroll system for my house keeper, and it is surprising hard to get taxes right... I am not surprised.