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Beg the question

21 点作者 atuladhar将近 15 年前

11 条评论

bobbyi将近 15 年前
Just because an obscure idiomatic usage exists doesn't make it incorrect to use the words literally.<p>If cats and dogs were falling out of the sky, I could correctly say that it's raining cats and dogs.<p>Some situations beg for a certain question to be asked.
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sounddust将近 15 年前
One of the meanings of the word "beg" has disappeared over time, and the meaning of "question" has evolved as well; as a result, the meaning of the phrase "beg the question" is evolving to more closely fit the currently understood definitions of those two words. It's amusing that none of the prescriptivists criticizing people for misusing this phrase seem to argue that we should be actively start using the second meaning of beg again, nor do they ever use it themselves.<p>For a much more comprehensive and interesting analysis of this topic, I'd recommend languagelog's article: (<a href="http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2290" rel="nofollow">http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2290</a>). I agree with his conclusion; it's futile to force people to understand the traditional meaning of this phrase, and it would be preferable for the phrase itself to evolve to use words that are currently in use and unambiguous ("assuming the conclusion" and "raising the question," for example)
mcknz将近 15 年前
A noble effort, but "begging the question" is destined to go the way of split infinitives....
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JacobAldridge将近 15 年前
Now this is change I can believe in.<p>And once we've sorted the 'Begs the Question' usage, let's tackle the media with an 'Enormity does not mean Enormous' campaign (Enormity = Great Evil, not Large) and then train sports journalists to pronounce conjure the way it's meant to be pronounced (kun not kon).<p>It's a losing battle in a language as beautifully fluid as English, but if I stand for nothing I will fall 4 N-E-Ting.
_delirium将近 15 年前
I'm not sure this phrase is actually worth using in any guise, especially given that the people using the "correct" meaning are often not using the even more pedantic correct meaning. Many logic books today use "beg the question" as synonymous with "circular reasoning" (some equate them explicitly), but there traditionally were subtle differences. Aristotle and medieval logicians considered circular reasoning to be a formal fallacy, presenting what appears to be a syllogism but is actually not a valid one. But they considered begging the question to be more of an informal fallacy, where an arguer has relied on assumptions that would be unreasonably large to grant, or are too similar to the conclusions, for the argument as a whole to be considered a legitimate or interesting demonstration of the point.<p>In medieval debating, it was sort of an out-of-bounds request more than a fallacy. The difference between on the one hand, putting forth a chain of reasoning that is explicitly circular (and thus fallacious), and on the other hand, asking your opponent to concede a point that, perhaps non-obviously, turns out to be equivalent to what you were arguing for, or at least, more subjectively, concedes too much of the way to your goal. That's not <i>fallacious</i>, because if they concede the point directly, or concede something that amounts to 80% of your point, your conclusion might correctly follow from it, and you have a proper syllogism, where you start with assumptions that all sides agreed on, and through valid reasoning arrive at your result. But it's in some sense cheating at debate, because you've tricked them into conceding the point, rather than having demonstrated the point.<p>(One reason it's subjective and informal is that you're effectively saying that demonstrating B from A is unreasonable, because A already contains too much of B, such that anyone who granted assumption A would in effect have already granted conclusion B, making the argument pointless. But in a strict sense, that's always true with any argument: anyone who grants any set of assumptions is always implicitly granting all conclusions that follow from those assumptions. So what counts as an unreasonable assumption that gives away too much of the conclusion is an outside-of-logic issue.)<p>For any of these meanings, I personally avoid the phrase. If you want the formal circular-reasoning fallacy, you can just say "circular reasoning", and if you want "raises the question", you can say that, or something similar. If you want the meaning I've described above, it's a bit trickier, but you probably will have to explain it anyway using more words, since it's the least common of the three meanings today (but maybe "circular reasoning" will work for that meaning too, in an informal sense of not being strictly circular, but maybe morally equivalent to a circular argument).
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run4yourlives将近 15 年前
Unfortunately, regardless of whether you are right or wrong, the English language is the rule of the masses.<p>That is why you are crushed.<p>If thou hast concern; shall be perplexed withe the change of lang-uage, read thise and acknolege.<p>(olde English for illustrative purposes only, god knows if it is accurate. )
julius_geezer将近 15 年前
It does not beg but it does demand the question, Why should I care that much?<p>I've essentially given up on "problematic" and "actionable"...
atuladhar将近 15 年前
This error has always bothered me and I don't really know why. I was reminded of the site when I noticed it on Nathan Marz's latest blog post (discussed at <a href="http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1650051" rel="nofollow">http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1650051</a>).
mcknz将近 15 年前
I'm very disinterested in this topic.
klochner将近 15 年前
one of my pet peeves . . .<p><pre><code> http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1603891 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1603799</code></pre>
Qz将近 15 年前
<i>This is why we fight.</i><p>I love it.