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61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

482 点作者 giffarage大约 7 年前

41 条评论

jmadsen大约 7 年前
It seems to me the whole problem amounts to companies deciding to redefine the word &quot;entry&quot;, then acting all disappointed when no one else uses that definition.<p>&quot;Entry&quot; means &quot;to enter the workforce&quot;. It means you have pre-work experience such as a specific degree, speak a certain language, etc.<p>If you advertise an &quot;entry level web development&quot; job and I just boot camped for that, I am qualified and will apply.<p>If you want &quot;Junior Developer&quot;, say so.<p>(Comment by someone that this is a gimmick to reduce salary sounds pretty right on.)
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jamestimmins大约 7 年前
The buried lede here seems to be &quot;In real life, folks need to apply to 150-250 jobs to get a job&quot;.<p>I&#x27;d be so, so interested to see the breakdown here, and what causes these types of numbers. Are there just enormous numbers of applicants for every job? Are people applying for jobs they aren&#x27;t qualified for? How does this compare in tech vs the rest of the job market?<p>The signal&#x2F;noise ratio must be absurdly low if this is possible.
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ry_ry大约 7 年前
Phone post, so may be a little disjointed...<p>Until very recently I was frontend lead for a fairly large UK site, and one of the best hires I ever made was a 32 year old former-recruiter with no commercial programming experience, and no CS background.<p>However it was far from plain sailing. We had mutual friends and whilst chatting in a pub, and they won me over with their passion and enthusiasm for what I discovered was their dream job.<p>I brought them on as a jr, into a small talented team with measures in place to ensure there was the opportunity to learn on the job and appropriate tasks to work on, but it quickly became apparent they were out of their depth. I worked on mentoring in work and and pointed them in the direction of stuff they might look at outside of work to dodge the bullet.<p>My work started to suffer because I was spending so much time mentoring, fixing code that had become irrevocably tangled and trying to manage a very stressed &amp; frustrated jr dev.<p>Eventually I had no choice but to move them into a different team where the work was less technically demanding and more html&#x2F;css focused, with a small salary cut. Everybody was disappointed with the situation but the alternative was letting them go.<p>Three years later, that dev rejoined the core engineering team a more experienced developer, passion intact, and having learned their trade in a lower pressure environment, comfortable they could handle the role. I&#x27;m incredibly proud of them for the way they handled the situation and am absolutely confident this time will be a success.<p>That said, it&#x27;ll probably be the last time I hire a dev with zero development experience. As an investment in an individual it&#x27;s incredibly worthwhile, but despite the happy ending, the whole experience was fairly disastrous.
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kushalc大约 7 年前
Hey guys, I&#x27;m the author of this post! (And also happen to be TalentWorks CEO.) A friend sent me this link, I&#x27;m happy to answer any Qs.<p>Also, we&#x27;re hiring. :) If you&#x27;re sick of spending all your hard-earned education and experience to help Facebook, Google, Amazon, etc. increase ad CTR by 0.001%, we&#x27;re working on some pretty cool technical problems. Just email me at kushal@talent.works.
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Spooky23大约 7 年前
It’s not jobs, it’s job postings.<p>You need to demonstrate that no candidates with skills are available to get a visa waiver. It’s called compliance advertising. There’s a whole industry of body shops that do this stuff and collude on rates. The folks they hire are the foot soldiers of banks and government.
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StaticRedux大约 7 年前
3+ years doesn&#x27;t mean 3+ years &quot;in a job&quot;. That makes no sense. (Well, maybe for some companies it does, but you don&#x27;t want to work there anyways). For some reason people can never get over that.<p>It means 3+ years with a technology. It means don&#x27;t walk in the door out of a Java college having used nothing else and apply to work on a Triple A game written in C++. It means don&#x27;t show up after a weekend html course and apply for a job using Node&#x2F;React. And before you say &quot;well that isn&#x27;t me for so and so reason&quot;, it happens ALL the time to employers.<p>An entry level position does not mean you get to learn on the job from scratch or near scratch. It means that you are at least capable enough to work on small or easy problems and features and an employer or other devs can coach you along the way and you&#x27;ll know what they are saying to you.<p>That&#x27;s all it means (to any reasonable employer).
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fzeroracer大约 7 年前
Speaking as someone currently in that position (developer with two years of experience) my personal experiences seem to align quite well with the data they collected.<p>When companies say &#x27;entry-level&#x27;, they seem to be referring to around 2-3 years of working experience. Not just college + internships, but actual professional experience. It&#x27;s an extremely silly market to be in right now if you&#x27;re a fresh grad.<p>All this talk about passion or numbers aside, I&#x27;ve had the opportunity to experience things from the other side and see how many senior-level developers with 10+ years of experience couldn&#x27;t write an if-statement in their choice of language to save their lives, or even elaborate on basic design choices&#x2F;decisions.
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PeterStuer大约 7 年前
Over here the labels are &#x27;junior&#x27;, &#x27;medior&#x27; and &#x27;senior&#x27;.<p>They are primarily used as a pay-scale indicator. It&#x27;s not that recruiters are dumb and looking for fresh graduates with 3 years of industrial work experience, it is that they are looking for people with 3 years of experience that will accept working in the &#x27;junior&#x27; pay-scale knowing that it will be 2-3 years before they move up to the &#x27;medior&#x27; payscale.<p>Many&#x2F;most companies in the IT industry fail to have a decent technical &#x27;ladder&#x27;, so upping the &#x27;label&#x27; once every two years while basically not changing the job is way of pretending that your developers are having a &#x27;career&#x27;.<p>Traditional &#x27;entry level&#x27; does not exist at most places as the bulk of companies don&#x27;t want to pay for the training&#x2F;mentoring phase. Too much overhead given the projected short career span.
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dotcoma大约 7 年前
Do we need more evidence that &quot;Entry-Level&quot; means &quot;poorly paid&quot;?
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throwaway2016a大约 7 年前
Apologies for a post that s pretty much 100% anecdotal...<p>This article rings true to me.<p>My wife ran into this after college only for her industry (biomedical engineering) it is 5 years for &quot;entry level&quot; and they didn&#x27;t even count her paid college jobs even though they were relevant experience.<p>Robotics is even worse. Unless you&#x27;ve been building robots as a hobby for the last 5-10 years (which is a VERY expensive hobby btw) it doesn&#x27;t matter how much other engineering or programming experience you have, they won&#x27;t take you.<p>I got lucky with the opposite. I started paid programming in high school and employers counted my high school and college jobs as experience and I had three competing mid-level offers at graduation. So I skipped entry level entirely. And this was in 2007 right before the recession really kicked in so companies were already starting to hold back on hiring.<p>On the flip side, an actual entry level coder we just hired expects to be working on fun new R&amp;D stuff even though he has 0 experience and I thought we set expectations during the interview. We have him working on bug fixing and client change orders (he will eventually get to R&amp;D but someone needs to fix the bugs, we can&#x27;t all work on just the &quot;fun&quot; stuff).
faitswulff大约 7 年前
This also explains why I started to get so many callbacks on job applications at year 5 in my programming career:<p>&gt; 3, 5 and 8 are your magic numbers. After 5+ years of experience, you (officially) qualify for most mid-level jobs. After 8+ years, you qualify for senior ones. And 3+ for entry-level, obvs.
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bproven大约 7 年前
Another interesting factoid I gathered from this is the &quot;avoid ageism&quot; tip about removing dates from graduation + only list last 10 years of job experience. I&#x27;ve always suspected it, but this supports it as a reality. Sad reality that we throw away experience...
shawn-furyan大约 7 年前
What you think this does: filter out inexperienced people<p>What this actually does: bias you toward hiring people who are comfortable lying
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jaimex2大约 7 年前
And this is why you lie on your entry level resumes kids.
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jaclaz大约 7 年前
What I often cite (for fun):<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;tudorbarbu.ninja&#x2F;message-to-recruiters&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;tudorbarbu.ninja&#x2F;message-to-recruiters&#x2F;</a><p>most notably &quot;This is how most job ads sound nowadays:&quot;:<p><i>We’re looking for a person with more than 100 years of experience in software development, coding everything from BIOSes to cloud applications, knowledge of all past, present and future operating systems and setting up secure networks. The applicant must also be able to juggle up to twenty balls and read hieroglyphs, be fluent in Swahili and dance like Michael Jackson (especially moonwalking – nice to have at corporate Christmas parties).</i>
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kardos大约 7 年前
Don&#x27;t forget that people with 3+ years experience probably aren&#x27;t applying for entry level jobs
gnopgnip大约 7 年前
Entry level doesn&#x27;t mean people with no experience, and it means something different for every company. Entry level for the NFL means having 8+ years of football experience for instance. Not every company hires people straight out of highschool or college. But there still are many that will hire people with 0-1 years of experience for entry level roles.
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alankritjoshi大约 7 年前
The best I saw on LinkedIn was &quot;3 years of experience required in TensorFlow&quot;. Released in late 2015...
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mrarjen大约 7 年前
Best way to get a job is through networking with people, I had a year of unemployment and after sending out hundreds of applications I ended up getting asked by a friend to do some work for him instead.<p>In a matter of fact all jobs I had, have basically been thanks to people I know who worked at those companies.
paulie_a大约 7 年前
I remember 2 years after .net came out there were jobs requiring 6 years experience. I asked a recruiter about that and they were shocked I had the audacity to even ask
sixdimensional大约 7 年前
There is an interesting catch-22 I&#x27;ve experienced regarding a recommendation the article makes - if you remove things like graduation dates, previous positions &#x2F; etc. once you reach a certain age (35+ per the article), potential employers now don&#x27;t have that information.<p>The catch-22 is, if you&#x27;re not careful, now employers may think you are NOT senior and so you may be able to get a job, however, it might not be appropriate for your skill level. It can be frustrating for an experienced person.<p>Although, I&#x27;ve found that, once you have a job, generally typical employers don&#x27;t really care what you&#x27;ve done before and forget your past experience (which is a shame for them!). Depending on the employer, most of them care, &quot;Can you do what I want from you when I ask it of you?&quot; and that&#x27;s about it.<p>I&#x27;ve also heard the advice that says, if you have the experience, and you want a job, your resume should be explicitly tailored to no more and no less than what a job posting requests. I think the advice of obscuring your information to make yourself difficult to gage from an age perspective is an interesting approach, but it probably fits into the same category of advice.<p>I know this article is likely just a promotional piece for the author&#x27;s business, but, I have to admit, a number of points felt pretty accurate based on my personal anecdotes.
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thepra大约 7 年前
Am I the only one who thinks that basing your actual skills <i>only</i> on how many years of work you had is a little bit retarded?
collyw大约 7 年前
Isn&#x27;t this just useless management trying to be cheap?<p>In a company I worked for, I saw a LinkedIn ad for an intern with experience in a lot of specific tech that would have been more intermediate to senior level. For around a tenth of what I was being paid. I know in that case it was the company owners trying to be cheap and not having much clue about IT.
justin_vanw大约 7 年前
&quot;Entry Level&quot; is a euphemism. It doesn&#x27;t mean &quot;No experience&quot; it means &quot;Not very good so has to work cheap, but can do basic tasks with lots of supervision.&quot;
tyler_larson大约 7 年前
I guess it depends on how &quot;experience&quot; is defined. I had 8 years of &quot;experience&quot; programming before my first full-time paid job.<p>I am somewhat entertained every time a see jobs requiring 10+ years of experience with Go or Typescript or Swift. It&#x27;s a sign of just how well-thought-out these postings are.
golergka大约 7 年前
&quot;Require&quot;? The fact that something is written in job description as a &quot;requirement&quot; doesn&#x27;t mean that you won&#x27;t get hired without it. I think that most jobs I got as a self taught engineer had a degree as a requirement – and it was almost never even mentioned in an interview.
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jorblumesea大约 7 年前
I have heard that in many cases, these are actually H1B&#x2F;Visa positions, where they can set requirements that no one realistically hit, then use that to cover that position with a visa. Reason being, then you can say &quot;no qualified applicants&quot;.<p>Is there any truth to this? Or is it just FUD?
stinkytaco大约 7 年前
I worked part time for a couple of years before I ended up full time in my profession. It&#x27;s a luxury few people have, but quite common in my line of work.<p>But having hired people, I see this from the other end. I have precisely one person under me. It&#x27;s all we can afford and I&#x27;m in municipal government, so positions are not easy to create. Given that situation, and how hard it is to get rid of someone, I have to be <i>really</i> careful who I hire and that means favoring experience. I expect more supervisors than not are in my position, wanting to mentor but not being able to take the risk.
treis大约 7 年前
I call bullshit. I searched &quot;entry level developer&quot; on indeed and spot checked 10 of them. Not one said 3 years experience required.
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williamscales大约 7 年前
If you go to college and do an internship or research fellowship each summer, you will come out with &quot;3 years&quot; of experience.
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jrs95大约 7 年前
In my experience it&#x27;s been more like:<p>61% of Entry-Level Jobs &quot;Require&quot; 3+ Years of Experience. (They almost never do in practice)
adamredwoods大约 7 年前
Is this because it has become too easy to apply for jobs? Should there be a stronger barrier to even apply to something (ie. take this automated test to apply...)?
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Waterluvian大约 7 年前
Won&#x27;t the market sort out whatever this is?<p>Is there a specific unfair mechanism at play that would prevent supply and demand from finding its balance?
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tyingq大约 7 年前
Maybe the crackdown on H1B visas will change this? I&#x27;m sympathetic to the valid cases, but it was&#x2F;is being abused.
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unixhero大约 7 年前
This should he a banned tactic by every Ministry of Labour
crimsonalucard大约 7 年前
I get it though. The employer is thinking: Why do I pay you to train you? You should pay me to train you.<p>Lets bring back the apprentice system.
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Density大约 7 年前
We&#x27;re almost in the society from the movie Elysium.<p>The US went from being the land of opportunity to the land of overqualified uber drivers and warehouse workers.
known大约 7 年前
Let&#x27;s be realistic; Entry level jobs are filled with recommendations&#x2F;connections;
jlebrech大约 7 年前
yes, you have to spend 3 years doing something you don&#x27;t like doing while you learn 1 skill that you actually want.
rb808大约 7 年前
I dont really understand what the problem is. If a job says 3 year experience &quot;required&quot;, it just means they want people that know what they&#x27;re doing. If you worked a few summers and are good at something you&#x27;re qualified to apply.
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crankylinuxuser大约 7 年前
This also sounds like a great way to cut out &quot;undesirables&quot;. The women can be &#x27;given&#x27; social roles and kept out of the tech areas, and minorities are never allowed the 3 years experience.<p>Yeah, its jaded. I&#x27;ve been around the block a few times. Of course nobody outright says these things. They never really have to. The policies enforce those decisions.
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