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Improved fraud prevention with Radar 2.0

170 点作者 collision大约 7 年前

14 条评论

sixhobbits大约 7 年前
I really hope that this improves the false-positive rate, as mentioned in another comment.<p>We&#x27;ve been hurt badly as a startup breaking into the US market and getting many of our genuine charges blocked by Radar (and at a &quot;highest risk&quot; level where it is not possible to disable rules).<p>As a developer, I had the best possible impression of Stripe, as they provide easily the cleanest API and best documentation of any payment provider I&#x27;ve used.<p>From a business side, it was highly frustrating losing so many of our early US sales. A lot of this was due to US banks blocking the payment, but Stripe did not handle these cases well in our case.<p>* Error messages presented to the customer are often ambiguous or misleading, and if you&#x27;re using checkout.js you cannot customize these easily. In some cases, the customer gets a client-side &quot;Card is declined&quot; error, with no communication passed through to the merchant at all, which makes telephone support very difficult.<p>* Stripe will not provide any kind of telephone or chat support to merchants. By the time a specific blocked payment can be escalated to a &quot;fraud specialist&quot; the customer is usually long gone.<p>* Stripe will not allow you disable certain Radar rules.<p>* If a user tries to pay several times (due to their bank blocking the payment as suspicious), and then phones their bank to clear the payment, Stripe will often then block the payment due to &quot;repeated attempted uses of the card&quot;. This is highly frustrating as even very determined customers who try several times and then contact their bank to resolve the issue there still get blocked by Stripe, and usually give up at that point.<p>* We had one payment blocked by Radar due to it being from a &quot;high risk location&quot; (Pakistan if I remember correctly). This represented unacceptable levels of discrimination for us. Machine learning and probability is useful, but ethically it&#x27;s hugely problematic to deny people service based on their country, race, gender, age, or other attributes that they do not have control over.<p>My early experiences with PayPal were nothing short of terrible, but BrainTree is looking like a more and more attractive alternative to Stripe, especially with the PayPal integration built in -- if people have issues with their Credit Card they can simply pay with PayPal credit instead.
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mlm大约 7 年前
Engineering manager for Stripe Radar here. Today’s update has been almost a year in the making and we’re excited to help Stripe businesses fight fraud more effectively. Here&#x27;s more on what&#x27;s new: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;stripe.com&#x2F;blog&#x2F;radar-2018" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;stripe.com&#x2F;blog&#x2F;radar-2018</a><p>I (and the entire Radar team) are on hand to answer any questions you may have!
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Silhouette大约 7 年前
Anything that will cut the number of false positives is a welcome development. We lose far more to mysteriously failing charges than we&#x27;ve ever lost to fraud...<p>Can the new system now distinguish between the initial charge to start a subscription and subsequent ones? A recurring cause of those false positives is someone moving house after they&#x27;ve subscribed and not telling us, and thus failing a mandatory address verification when their next charge goes through. The concept of pre-approved and automatically-blocked lists seems like it might help with that problem, but it would be better still if we could just define the rules more flexibly in the first place so the address-related checks are done the first time but if they&#x27;ve passed previously then we&#x27;re not too concerned if they start failing later.
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lifeisstillgood大约 7 年前
Ok some really dumb questions if you don&#x27;t mind, but how &quot;fraud detection&quot; works has always been one of those areas I am interested in, but not enough to seek out a practitioner and pin them down - until now !<p>- Any idea what the total fraud vs genuine transactions ratio is? And how that breaks down across industries? I am assuming that SaaS services don&#x27;t get as much of this - i mean would people buy bingo cards with a stolen card?<p>- how does fraud get monetised? Once i have downloaded my millions of credit card numbers from Tor (or stolen my friends mothers wallet) I need to persuade a merchant to deliver me something - but it&#x27;s always bugged me that they actually have to deliver it. to a physical address. that can presumably be traced. It all seems very low level<p>(Quick story, years ago, call it the year 2000, was in the UK version of BestBuy and the manager called up a service to verify that this 17 year old kid could have a laptop. The manager asked what&#x27;s your name ? Ok Your address ? Ok. Date of Birth? March 1954? really? you look a bit young for fifty. It just seems a poor way to commit crime)<p>The question i am trying to ask is that turning credit card numbers into cash seems like a grind that farmville would be impressed by? is it just lots of low level grunts in shops and online or is there something i am missing?<p>- what advantages do you get as a payment processor that a merchant does not have? And how is that better &#x2F; worse than the card provider? I would assume there are people trying the same card in multiple different stores at the same time, so if you spot one attempt you stop them all, whereas individual merchants could not know. But Visa probably spots that i just paid for goods on two continents which you can only spot of both merchants use you? Do you and visa share data or do sequential checks and the like?<p>- how much do the &quot;obvious&quot; checks help - highly unlikely purchases (3 iphones) timing or physical activity (I probably won&#x27;t buy books on amazon, clothes on boohoo and petrol in a garage in the same five minutes) versus the more ML &#x2F; secret squirrel stuff?<p>cheers
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kawsper大约 7 年前
It is really cool that Stripe is building Radar, we wanted to use <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;siftscience.com" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;siftscience.com</a> for something similar, but they went all corporate, and changed their pricing model before we could implement, so instead of them charging per &quot;transaction&quot; or user action, you now had to pay a minimum of $1000 per month for their smallest offering.
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kweks大约 7 年前
We&#x27;ve all but given up on Stripe&#x27;s radar. We plugged in Signifyd, and it&#x27;s amazing to see how often Stripe gets things .. completely wrong.<p>Now obviously Signifyd scrub, but we haven&#x27;t seen a case where we&#x27;ve had clean transactions scrubbed, and when a CB goes through, you&#x27;re refunded.<p>Likewise, you no longer have to worry about your CB% going over and you getting blacklisted for life.<p>Until Stripe steps up and starts providing chargeback protection, their protection is simply lipservice.
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hartator大约 7 年前
I wish they will be a way to minimize false positives. It’s a biggger issue to block legitimate customers because they are not from the US.
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guessmyname大约 7 年前
Clean landing page as always, keep up the good work.
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DTE大约 7 年前
Good video on how they built out Radar. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.infoq.com&#x2F;presentations&#x2F;stripe-machine-learning" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.infoq.com&#x2F;presentations&#x2F;stripe-machine-learning</a>
johnnyg大约 7 年前
I love Stripe and am an early and long time customer.<p>Everything about them is beautiful, simplified and easy - except Radar.<p>For all the blogs and good intentions of the team, Radar to me means an email 3 days after I&#x27;ve processed and shipped an order telling me it may be fraudulent, followed a month later by a reminder &quot;I&#x27;m sorry, you lost your credit dispute for $X&quot; email, followed by a $15 charge by Stripe for no error or bad faith on the part of my company.<p>When Radar isn&#x27;t busy sending me reminders that we&#x27;re having money stolen from us, they are hard at work denying legit charges and sending customers down a Kafka-esque rabbit hole, hell bent on seeing exactly how much friction can be introduced into our website&#x27;s buying process by a single third party service.<p>Stripe didn&#x27;t create the fraud and they are taking on a difficult and emotional part of their business, which is commendable, but it must be said:<p>1. The false positive rate of Radar is so bad that it renders the product worse than useless - worse because it initially provides a false hope.<p>2. You can&#x27;t disable some parts of Radar. Better to throw the whole thing into the sea and use a plugin then be forced into some parts of this.<p>I know there are good people trying hard to build this product well. Some of the people on it serviced our account in the early days. They had a vision of a better way and they made it real. My hats off to them. Now, people I respect, I have hard words and a hard truth to impart to you:<p>You are not delivering the value you claim to provide. Do not continue iterating. Discontinue the product. Allow others who focus on this to do it well. You are great at what you do but you are frustratingly, annoyingly, arrogantly bad at this. It pisses us all off to be forced to use it and to be told again and again how great it is going to be or how fixed it is this time. I don&#x27;t want to engage with Stripe on Radar or &quot;learn more about it&quot;, I don&#x27;t want to be interviewed by you so you can better understand the voice of customer, there is no email or back channel thing you can send to make this better. The beauty of Stripe is that it &quot;just works&quot; but Radar does not just work - and it never will.
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etaioinshrdlu大约 7 年前
Stripe&#x27;s false positive problem has been awful for my business. Hoping it gets better.
the_arun大约 7 年前
Shouldn&#x27;t fraud detection available by default? Why customer has to pay extra?
Sephr大约 7 年前
Do you use ML on street view imagery of addresses to attempt to detect if an address is abandoned (and subsequently, more likely to be used to recieve fraudulent orders)?
throwaway123121大约 7 年前
On a throwaway so I can reply to this. Creditcard fraud is ripe and easy when it came to stripe a few years ago, I havn&#x27;t carded anything for awhile. But glad to see stripe working on fraud prevention. We use to use tor and not even need to hop exit nodes and we could drain 100+ ccs into twitch streamers alerts for a gag and without stripe then we&#x27;d be stuck with paypal, screw carding paypal stripe all the way. Might be useful if stripe tried to card their services themselves to learn to prevent it, but they didnt even appear to try. Atleast block tor for credit card transactions come on, no one is going to use tor to pay for something under their own credit card. Kinda defeats the purpose of tor.