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Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

107 点作者 dsiegel2275大约 7 年前

19 条评论

throwaway000021大约 7 年前
The real problem is that as an &quot;older&quot; programmer (50) I am probably the best I have been, but I no longer believe in the missions of pretty much any company, I&#x27;m not interested in the silly ways the companies try to build their culture with toys and trinkets and blankets and rituals and sparkles and phony constructs designed to create workplace as a funpark. I am diplomatic, so I would of course keep all this a secret - I know how to be a good employee.<p>I&#x27;m very happy to do a great job, and easy to get along with and productive and a team player, but I&#x27;d be happy to program in a grey box on a plain chair and table.<p>The employment deal for me is this:<p>I program, do a great and professional job<p>You give me money and&#x2F;or equity<p>I do appropriate hours and give me this time I need to leave early for example to pick up the kids<p>I get you a great result<p>I set in a chair and table at an office or ideally I work from home (travel is dead time)<p>But that&#x27;s not the deal on offer.<p>For me, the primary satisfaction comes from working hard and getting a result that advances the goals of the business.<p>And BTW I am <i>very</i> much on the cutting edge technically, but I probably wouldn&#x27;t get through any recruiting process for god know what reason why.
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notacoward大约 7 年前
This article seems a bit backward. The low number of people who stay in programming is not entirely the result of people being <i>forced</i> out. A significant number of programmers never meant to stay programmers forever anyway. Even early in my career, long ago, it was easy to spot people whose long term plan was clearly to move into the executive suite, or VC, or HR, or sales&#x2F;marketing. Saying &quot;I used to be a programmer myself&quot; to them was a way to establish trust&#x2F;credibility from those other positions, so they were in it just long enough for it not to be a total lie.<p>Those people already had a plan B. They weren&#x27;t victims who had to scramble for alternatives, but they still contributed to those statistics. As far as I can tell, the vast majority of people who <i>want</i> to stay programmers are able to do so as long as they keep their skills updated.
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berg01大约 7 年前
I&#x27;m a little bit past 40 now. I saw the writing on the wall about ten years ago (hey, why is there like 1 programmer older than 50 in my company&#x27;s engineering team of 500?) and started thinking about optimizing my career for this. I was the lead engineer for a rising product. Based on this thinking I consistently made choices that led to more engineering management rather than individual contribution work.<p>Don&#x27;t get me wrong, I&#x27;m still deeply technical, but I spend at least 40-50% of my time dealing with human problems, getting them to work together, resolve conflicts etc etc.<p>Ten years later, the results are:<p>- Financially: Check. I&#x27;m okay. I can kinda stop working now, if I want to. If I hadn&#x27;t done that thinking a decade ago, I would not be in this financially secure position.<p>- Fun-wise: Meh. It was a lot more fun to build stuff than to get people to build stuff.<p>To be honest, I&#x27;m not sure what&#x27;s the right path here.
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weeksie大约 7 年前
I&#x27;m over that hill and I also got on the consulting train a few years back. It&#x27;s funny because I sometimes get recruiters calling me with good jobs (high salary, unlimited vacation, interesting projects) and I respond with, &quot;Sure, but you&#x27;ll have to double the pay and give me six months off per year to match what I have right now.&quot;<p>Never looking back.
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fenwick67大约 7 年前
I get that the author is being pragmatic, but that people even have to put up with this level of ageism is ridiculous.<p>&gt; Considerable accusatory ink has been dedicated to the age discrimination problem in technology, but I suspect it may be an inevitable consequence of the rapid pace of change that defines this field.<p>Interesting that this doesn&#x27;t apply to medicine, education, mechanical or electrical engineering, all of which change very quickly and have a broad knowledge set, but somehow it applies to computer programming.
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rsuelzer大约 7 年前
This is scary. I&#x27;m 30, and I can&#x27;t imagine doing anything else with my life. I have no formal CS education, but coding is huge part of my identity. I would do it even if it meant being poor. Of the developers that I know that are older and went into management, most of them did so because they had children and family and didn&#x27;t have the same level of free time to keep up with new tech or were just burnt out.
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krapp大约 7 年前
HA! Joke&#x27;s on you, programming <i>was</i> my plan B, when I went back to school, when I was already past 30.<p>Don&#x27;t you feel like a chump now, as an adult with your mountain of student loan debt, and nothing to show for your efforts but half-finished projects, and job at an Amazon warehouse that pays more than the only professional programming job you ever had?<p>Sucker.<p>I wonder if I&#x27;m already too old to sell myself as a blood-thrall to Peter Thiel?<p>Eh, probably.
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typomatic大约 7 年前
&gt; The unfortunate truth is that unlike other forms of discrimination that are more arbitrary and capricious, age discrimination can often be a result of objective and sound business justifications.<p>The entire ridiculous immoral premise of this article is built on this idea that age discrimination is somehow objective or best for the company. It is not--hiring a new grad for their stupid excitement over the canny cynicism of an old hand is the definition of penny-wise and pound-foolish. Although given the incentive structures to executives, pound-foolishness has never really hurt anyone &quot;important&quot; in the business world.<p>What should programmers do before they turn 40? Advocate for less ageism, instead of writing blog posts that try to pull the rug out from under aging programmers by positing ageism as a fact of nature.
folkhack大约 7 年前
I understand the sentiment but I would also like to offer my own anecdotal &quot;youngin&#x27; webdev&quot; experience:<p>I have worked with a ton of great people who program that are over 40, and having experience isn&#x27;t just what you are familiar with as far as tech stacks.<p>Employers are just looking for a value add when hiring - and I believe that devs in their 40s bring that value just the same as devs in their 20s.
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rajeshpant大约 7 年前
I think most companies that are trying to tackle the aging problem in tech don&#x27;t quite understand the real underlying issue. They reward people who climb management ladder more than engineers who stay in engineering roles. I see my colleagues who made made a switch to management have far more successful career by mid 40&#x27;s.<p>The real issue is non-technical folks are valued &amp; rewarded more than engineers. All tech companies follow more or less same org charts. What is really required is to reverse this org pyramid.
wainstead大约 7 年前
Ward Cunningham. Linus Torvalds. Kent Beck. Pavel Curtis. The list goes on and on. Plenty of programmers over 40 out there.<p>I know there are a lot reading&#x2F;commenting on Hacker News too (and I&#x27;m one of them).<p>What we really lack are concrete numbers. The article is nine years old, citing data from nearly twenty years ago.
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mkozlows大约 7 年前
This article is needlessly alarmist. Really, there are three ways you can go as you get up there in seniority:<p>1. If you&#x27;re a good programmer, and you can&#x2F;want to keep learning new things and jumping onto the latest technologies (ideally because you enjoy them for their own sake), you can be very successful as a senior&#x2F;lead&#x2F;whatever dev -- there is not a superabundance of skilled devs with a lot of pragmatic experience who are up on the latest techs. The downside of this approach is that you really do have to keep learning very aggressively; the instant you coast on what you learned five years ago, you&#x27;re at risk of falling into the next category. (And that sounds obvious to anyone who&#x27;s 23 -- the stuff you used five years ago is ancient! -- but once you&#x27;re in your 40s, five years passes suspiciously quickly.)<p>2. If you&#x27;re a mediocre programmer, and you don&#x27;t want to keep learning new things and want to ride your old technologies, you can often get jobs in big companies&#x2F;govt maintaining slow-changing legacy apps, and ride that out in comfort until you retire, but this is legit risky, because maybe that system will stay in use until you retire (I know devs who retired in the last few years, still maintaining COBOL apps running on VAX emulators)... but maybe it won&#x27;t (I also know devs who lost their jobs well before retirement because the AS&#x2F;400 applications they worked on got replaced by newer stuff, and they couldn&#x27;t&#x2F;didn&#x27;t want to learn the new tech).<p>3. If you are good at management, and want to move into that, you can do that. This isn&#x27;t some last-ditch escape hatch from development, though, it&#x27;s a whole separate field that requires different skillsets, and not all devs are well-suited for it. Yeah, you have to know some tech to be a good manager of a dev team, but organizational and interpersonal skills are much more important. And also, experience here matters, too -- if you&#x27;re trying to shift to management late in your career, you&#x27;re competing against people who have a lot more management experience than you, which is going to make it challenging.
commandlinefan大约 7 年前
&gt; dealing with unrealistic requests will pretty much become your life.<p>Yeah, so it&#x27;s the same as being a programmer then?
aogaili大约 7 年前
That mindset seems mostly in the bay area, so they can cult the young into their world changing mission while building their next Snapchat.<p>Senior engineerings&#x2F;developers accumulate experiences that goes beyond just implementing a feature, they can make better decisions, work better with people, manage stress better, more consistent in their work etc. And those who want to stay technology make the transitions to emerging tech relatively easy.<p>But if the person is lazy, don&#x27;t invest in their career growth, then yeah, just like any other job, they&#x27;ll soon find themselves stagnating.
djtriptych大约 7 年前
I think I&#x27;m in my prime earning years right now at 37. My plan B is a bunch of media plays, basically a land grab for a bespoke social network, and news&#x2F;blog media engine, and a few other pieces of software I&#x27;ve been working on for a few years I&#x27;d like to develop &#x2F; bring to market.<p>I have enough saved now to move to a cheaper city and live there for a few years (or break even indefinitely by picking up a small amount of client work). Retirement for me will probably mean happily working on and servicing a couple of income earning pet projects.
salmonfamine大约 7 年前
Anecdotally, it seems that a lot of the 40+ engineers turn into &quot;architects&quot;. Not sure if that still counts as a &quot;programmer&quot; by this article&#x27;s definition.
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dang大约 7 年前
Discussed in 2009: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=650437" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=650437</a><p>and in 2015: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=9361580" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=9361580</a>.
icedchai大约 7 年前
The best plan B you can do is to save and invest your money.
nomy99大约 7 年前
I plan on buying a coffee shop(tim hortons franchise) from the consulting money and leaving the software gig at 40. I am 30 now.
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