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Bots playing the market make some bizarre patterns

131 点作者 freejoe76超过 14 年前

15 条评论

smanek超过 14 年前
Some people I work with (at a HFT firm), joke that it's someone warming up their JVM by placing clearly unfillable IOCs ;-).<p>My personal pet theory (for some of the graphs) is that someone is just loading up the book at many price levels with unlikely-to-be-filled limit orders to gain priority (for the rare occasions the market makes big swings). It's a perfectly legit tactic, that would help the market by providing liquidity and support against other players' big orders.<p>Some other graphs have perfectly innocuous explanations - for example someone probing the depth of the book or filling a big order piece-by-piece.<p>FWIW, you can't really pull a serious DoS against most exchanges. Most decent ones have pretty strict rolling-window rate limits. And no other firm is going to have much trouble processing the maximum number of orders one firm is allowed to place within their limit.<p>Even if you could get away with a DoS once (and I suspect you could), who's going to risk it? The exchange knows who you are and will punish you when you do.
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noname123超过 14 年前
It's basically DoS attacks for other market participants.<p>Basically all algo trading systems need to cancel/modify their limit orders to keep things relative to the last traded price and the whole quote book. The way they maintain their own quote book is through some data feed's API. e.g.,<p>Processing messages via onBidChange(double price, int bidSize); suppose you send a million buy orders at $2.00 when the stock price is trading at $6.00; your orders won't get executed, but your competitor who's processing these messages will be busy processing these message. You ignore the bottom of the book because you know your own garbage orders while you focus on processing messages at the top of the book in case of a inter-market/equity-options-futures arbitrage opportunity arises for 200ms. Your competitor was busy processing your garbage orders for 200ms; he/she either can't arb the trade as fast as you can, or they are the mutual fund algo and they can't cancel/modify their VWAP limit orders fast enough, while you trade in and out 2000 shares for $0.01/share profit plus liquidity rebates in that 200ms.
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d_c超过 14 年前
Yet more:<p>- <a href="http://www.zerohedge.com/article/algorithmic-crop-circles-redux-rise-stock-market-machines-part-2" rel="nofollow">http://www.zerohedge.com/article/algorithmic-crop-circles-re...</a><p>- <a href="http://www.zerohedge.com/article/its-not-market-its-hft-crop-circle-crime-scene-further-evidence-quote-stuffing-manipulation-" rel="nofollow">http://www.zerohedge.com/article/its-not-market-its-hft-crop...</a><p>- <a href="http://www.zerohedge.com/article/todays-dose-crop-circle-quote-stuffing-algos-focuses-v-dug-and-trn" rel="nofollow">http://www.zerohedge.com/article/todays-dose-crop-circle-quo...</a>
drdaeman超过 14 年前
I could image those seemingly-pointless patterns to be some sort of anonymous (since noone knows who the receiver is) steganographically-protected messaging. Well, I'm not serious.
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narrator超过 14 年前
It's a big game of core war(see <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Core_War" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Core_War</a>) as far as I'm concerned.
charlief超过 14 年前
Original report was posted on HN a few months back: <a href="http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1458175" rel="nofollow">http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1458175</a><p>Original Nanex report: <a href="http://www.nanex.net/20100506/FlashCrashAnalysis_Intro.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.nanex.net/20100506/FlashCrashAnalysis_Intro.html</a>
ShabbyDoo超过 14 年前
I know nothing of trading networks. Is there any benefit in analyzing latency by pushing data out at known intervals and observing when you get it back in your data feed?<p>Is there a cost to the HFTs to make bids which will never see the light of day?
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jamii超过 14 年前
I see a lot of weird graphs but no actual data. I can imagine this kind of stuff going on but I'd like to see some actual evidence attached before people start railing against HFT again. It reads more like an advert for Nanex than anything else.
alanh超过 14 年前
This reminds me of Stross's <i>Accelerando</i> and its Strange Children, the ultra-fast AIs trading stocks and powering Economics 2.0. Humans were completely outclassed and excluded from stock exchanges.
Simucal超过 14 年前
Are there any trading services that a normal person can pay for that provide it some API to get quotes and do different kinds of trading?<p>I think putting a little money in an account and then working on writing a small trading bot would be a fun project.
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Volscio超过 14 年前
The Daemon is working in the background, preparing for its activation.<p><a href="http://www.amazon.com/Daemon-Daniel-Suarez/dp/0451228731/" rel="nofollow">http://www.amazon.com/Daemon-Daniel-Suarez/dp/0451228731/</a>
arnorhs超过 14 年前
Why don't they just change the rules by lowering the granularity? An actual trade could only happen every minute or so. What is the biggest argument against that?
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RiderOfGiraffes超过 14 年前
Dup: <a href="http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1576024" rel="nofollow">http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1576024</a>
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ThomPete超过 14 年前
They remind me of some of the Cellular Automate examples from Wolframs A new Kind of Science.
akshayubhat超过 14 年前
Interesting anyone knows which strategies they use to decide to buy/sell, once they have determined the expected price?<p>do they use physics based techniques, like black scholes?<p>or do they use statical learning based techniques?