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Dissolving the Fermi Paradox

113 点作者 monort将近 7 年前

22 条评论

poppingtonic将近 7 年前
The conclusion of this paper is, paraphrasing, "We should stop using point estimates for what should be distributions. When we do that, we get much lower bounds and have a better chance at being more precise, whether or not we are alone." It opens up avenues for more questions, which is the correct stance given how little we know.
PaulHoule将近 7 年前
Ecosystems are limited by the availability of water, not sunlight. Also there are more &quot;habitable&quot; places in the universe which are underground oceans (the default condition outside the frost line) as opposed to a tiny fraction of rock worlds which have to parametrically fine tuned to have water -- ex. there are 10-20 worlds that have underground oceans in our own solar system.<p>Why would a spacefaring civilization care about dry worlds inside the frost line? The most absurd thing about &quot;Battle: Los Angeles&quot; is not that aliens would come to Los Angeles (as opposed to Detroit) to steal water, but that they would come to a planet which has a thin layer on the surface as opposed to being just a run-of-the-mill dwarf planet or asteroid or comet or whatever you call it that is closer to 50% water.<p>If civilizations of the dark had deuterium fusion they might see very little reason to mess around with the puny resources to be found close to a star. It&#x27;s entirely plausible that a generation &quot;starship&quot; could live off the land and hop from comet to comet to the next star in 10,000 years but probably the crew would lose interest long before the first millenium.
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Sniffnoy将近 7 年前
I&#x27;m going to repost the same comment I made on Reddit:<p>This is quite interesting. It certainly sounds like this does dissolve the Fermi paradox, as they say. However, I think the key idea in this paper is actually not what the authors say it is. They say the key idea is taking account of all our uncertainty rather than using point estimates. I think the key idea is actually realizing that the Drake equation and the Fermi observation don&#x27;t conflict because they&#x27;re answering different questions.<p>That is to say: Where does this use of point estimates come from? Well, the Drake equation gives (under the assumption that certain things are uncorrelated) the expected number of civilizations we should expect to detect. Here&#x27;s the thing -- if we grant the uncorrelatedness assumption (as the authors do), the use of point estimates is entirely valid for that purpose; summarizing one&#x27;s uncertainty into point estimates will not alter the result.<p>The thing is that the authors here have realized, it seems to me, that the expected value is fundamentally the wrong calculation for purposes of considering the Fermi observation. Sure, maybe the expected value is high -- but why would that conflict with our seeing nothing? The right question to ask, in terms of the Fermi observation, is not, what is the expected number of civilizations we would see, but rather, what is the probability we would see any number more than zero?<p>They then note that -- taking into account all our uncertainty, as they say -- while the expected number may be high, this probability is actually quite low, and therefore does not conflict with the Fermi observation. But to my mind the key idea here isn&#x27;t taking into account all our uncertainty, but asking about P(N&gt;0) rather than E(N) in the first place, realizing that it&#x27;s really P(N&gt;0) and not E(N) that&#x27;s the relevant question. It&#x27;s only that switch from E(N) to P(N&gt;0) that necessitates the taking into account of all our uncertainty, after all!<p>[Note afterward: Over on Reddit, hxka points out that that should be P(N&gt;1), not P(N&gt;0). Or really it should be P(N&gt;1|N&gt;0)...]
btilly将近 7 年前
I have trouble calling it a paradox, because there is nothing that needs explaining in my view. Just throw in the fact that known fudge factors are important, and throw in the fact that there are more fudge factors that we don&#x27;t know.<p>For example the traditional Drake equation doesn&#x27;t include as a major factor &quot;large moon that stabilizes the axial tilt over evolutionary time&quot;. And yet that seems to be needed and at least somewhat rare.<p>The traditional Drake equation doesn&#x27;t include as a major factor &quot;life not wiped out by a supernova over evolutionary time&quot;. And yet per <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;earthsky.org&#x2F;astronomy-essentials&#x2F;supernove-distance" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;earthsky.org&#x2F;astronomy-essentials&#x2F;supernove-distance</a> there are estimates that this might happen on average once per 15 million years. From the Cambrian explosion to the present is around 540 million years. The odds of that forbearance is on the order of 7 billion to 1 against. How much does THAT change the Drake equation?
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light_hue_1将近 7 年前
It&#x27;s &quot;papers&quot; like this by people that are either clueless or malicious that make everyone pine for the pre-arxiv days.<p>Everyone considered this option. From the very first day the paradox was posed. We don&#x27;t know the parameters well, it&#x27;s within our margin of error that no one else is out there, so it&#x27;s an option. This is such an absurd claim to take as your own that it&#x27;s literally on the wikipedia page!<p>It&#x27;s also extremely shortsighted in order to get media attention. This resolves nothing about the paradox. What about the universe prevents other intelligent species from existing nearby? Sure, it&#x27;s within our margin of error, but where is this coming from? Too few planets, too little abiogenesis, etc? Many factors or a single one? Is our existence simply a consequence of the fact that we&#x27;re here therefore the dice must have landed well for us? Or is there something fairly unique about our solar system &#x2F; planet &#x2F; species &#x2F; etc.<p>That&#x27;s the real scientific question that keeps people up at night.
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not_a_moth将近 7 年前
How can we be expected to take seriously a probability estimate of life being &quot;out there&quot;? Only 10 years ago we discovered how many Earth-like planets are likely in our galaxy (I didn&#x27;t see this aspect mentioned in the paper...), and they are also calculating a probability of abiogenesis (emergence of life), which, while I&#x27;m not an expert, seems highly speculative.
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gmuslera将近 7 年前
The reasoning seem to be &quot;as we don&#x27;t have enough data, lets conclude whatever I want&quot;.<p>The Fermi paradox assumes that if there are aliens more advanced than us somewhere for a long time, they should be here by now. Maybe more advanced technology enables interstellar travel (maybe not, maybe is not practical at all), maybe they may not have all our motivations (expansion, technological advancement in our own focus, exponential growth, etc), maybe they don&#x27;t want to expand or announce themselves because they went cyber or try to pass unnoticed in the dark forest, or things that we can&#x27;t even imagine yet, as we are not advanced enough.<p>We just don&#x27;t have enough data to give a meaningful answer. And maybe never will. The only way to decide if we are alone in the universe or not is actually finding someone else. But with so much outside our physical or practical line of sight we can&#x27;t just say that there is no one else because we didn&#x27;t see anything.
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carry_bit将近 7 年前
Related slides: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.jodrellbank.manchester.ac.uk&#x2F;media&#x2F;eps&#x2F;jodrell-bank-centre-for-astrophysics&#x2F;news-and-events&#x2F;2017&#x2F;uksrn-slides&#x2F;Anders-Sandberg---Dissolving-Fermi-Paradox-UKSRN.pdf" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.jodrellbank.manchester.ac.uk&#x2F;media&#x2F;eps&#x2F;jodrell-ba...</a>
jl2718将近 7 年前
I would rephrase the question as: What are reasonable bounds on the number of intelligent civilizations, given that we have observed exactly one in the archeological record of our own planet, and no others elsewhere with current technology?<p>So, tiny sliver of time over billions of years, and communications technology that only reaches to a few nearby stars.<p>Trying to use probability of certain chemistry is, I think, highly subject to errors and failure to consider some alternative possibilities.<p>Life itself, however, is a totally different equation because it’s nearly as old as the earth. This might suggest that there is a lot of it out there.
sbensu将近 7 年前
Related recommendation: this podcast episode[1] was very good, covered many solutions to the Fermi Paradox, and discussed the OP&#x27;s article.<p>[1] <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;rationallyspeakingpodcast.org&#x2F;show&#x2F;rs-203-stephen-webb-on-where-is-everybody-solutions-to-the-f.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;rationallyspeakingpodcast.org&#x2F;show&#x2F;rs-203-stephen-web...</a>
chmike将近 7 年前
In my opinion, takling the ET existence using the drake equation is not efficient because it boils down to estimate or guessing values.<p>I favor the following reasonning. For simplification, let consider the universe as homogene. Now, let <i>p</i> be the probability that life emerges in one unit of time and space. (1-<i>p</i>) is the probability that life does not emerge in the unit of volume and space.<p>If <i>v</i> is the number of volume units in the universe and <i>t</i> the age of the universe in unit of time, then the probability that life never emerges in the universe is (1-<i>p</i>)^(<i>v</i> * <i>t</i>). If <i>p</i> is bigger than zero, this probability will tend to 0 with a growing <i>v</i> and <i>t</i>, regardless of the magnitude of <i>p</i>. This always converges to 0. Soon or later, life will emerge in the universe as long as it can emerge spontaneously.<p>What is the probaility that our solar system is the only place in the universe where life emerged. Let <i>s</i> be the volume of our solar system. That probability is (1-<i>p</i>)^((<i>v</i>-<i>s</i>) * <i>t</i>). Since <i>s</i> is very small relative to <i>v</i>, that probability is very close to the above probability. And with growing <i>v</i> and <i>t</i> this probability tend to zero. In other words the probability that life emerges elsewere in the universe after removing the volume of our solar system is not much affected. It still tends toward 1.<p>This should give you the idea. The only unknown variable is <i>p</i>. But even if we don&#x27;t know it&#x27;s value, we can draw two important conclusions from this. 1) it doesn&#x27;t matter how small <i>p</i> is, soon or later life will emerge. 2) the probability that we are alone in the universe is tending toward 0 with increasing <i>t</i> and <i>v</i>.<p>Could we be the most advanced ? Why discarding the ufological data ? It&#x27;s time this non-sense and ostrich attitude stops.
ISL将近 7 年前
If the argument stated above is correct, there is an awful waste of space. (Thanks, Carl!)<p>There is nothing in physical law to suggest that here is substantially different from anywhere else in the universe. To believe that here is manifestly different from <i>every other place</i> in the universe is a really surprising claim.
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8bitsrule将近 7 年前
<i>expectation that the universe should be teeming with &gt;intelligent life&lt;.</i><p>It&#x27;s only a paradox if you&#x27;re capable of entertaining such an expectation. Based on my life experience, I&#x27;d estimate the probability is about the same as finding a bottle of my favorite drink sitting on the doorstep.
jackconnor将近 7 年前
I feel like if aliens come they might keep themselves hidden, rather than announce their presence. If so, it could be Fermi was right, we just haven&#x27;t seen the evidence of it yet, since the Fermi Paradox presupposes that their should be intelligent life and the we actually can point to evidence of it.
carapace将近 7 年前
We&#x27;re in quarantine.<p>To other life forms humans look like H.R. Giger&#x27;s xenomorph aliens from the movies.<p>We&#x27;re obviously intelligent, yet we absolutely refuse to communicate with other life forms. we&#x27;re not even interested in the possibility.<p>We consume other organisms with rapacious abandon, converting them into more of ourselves as fast as we can. We are strip-mining the oceans of protein, our chattel livestock out-mass all other land animals by several times, and still we consume. We clearcut forests leaving patterns visible from space.<p>We cover everything with asphalt and concrete to create huge sprawling nests that are inimical to life other than our own (and a few species that can live with us.) Again, this is clearly visible from space.<p>From orbit we look just like a disease.<p>There&#x27;s a place in Washington (state), a lake, where the UFOs take off and land (underwater) and the cheeky fuckers will <i>wave back</i> at you from windows in the ships.<p>We&#x27;re not alone. We just suck.
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mchahn将近 7 年前
Can some tell me what the &quot;{\em ex ante}&quot; I see in several places means?
tachkotic将近 7 年前
The time span of human civilization is too small to witness the emergence and extinction of intelligent civilization elsewhere. Universe is really very vast in terms of distance and time.
jpm_sd将近 7 年前
TL;DR - It&#x27;s not a paradox, because we&#x27;re probably alone. Kind of a letdown!
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psychometry将近 7 年前
Does anyone else find this question totally uninteresting? There&#x27;s no discussion to be had about this paradox that doesn&#x27;t devolve into an N=1 predictive model.
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FreekNortier将近 7 年前
They are here just not in a way most people would think. When you are ready to know you will know.
shawn将近 7 年前
It has always seemed arrogant to think that aliens exist anywhere within our galaxy. Look at how many galaxies are out there. Now realize that the universe extends far beyond our Hubble sphere.<p>We can’t hope to colonize even a fraction of 1% of our galaxy, even with wildly futuristic technology.<p>There is one option, though: Become our own aliens. If we set up colonies separated by time and distance, we will culturally diverge within a century, and genetically within a few millennia-ish.
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transfire将近 7 年前
&quot;Space is big. Really big. You just won&#x27;t believe how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it&#x27;s a long way down the road to the chemist, but that&#x27;s just peanuts to space.&quot;<p>There is no way we are alone.
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