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Ask HN: Living overseas with a profitable online business

113 点作者 SteveC超过 14 年前
I am a UK citizen with a profitable online business. I have no real responsibilities other than that and I would like to try living in a few different countries for a while before I have to settle in one place. My web business means I can work from anywhere as long as I have an Internet connection. Has anyone here in a similar situation tried this? What sort of hurdles did you face with visas? How was tax handled? Did earning your money online make things easier or complicate matters?

35 条评论

jacquesm超过 14 年前
I've done it for a couple of years (5 in all), from the Netherlands to Canada.<p>It cost an arm and a leg, but I wouldn't have missed it for the world.<p>As for taxes, the rule in my case was that as soon as I spent more than half a year per year in the one country that one became the one where I paid my taxes.<p>I did create a corporation in Canada in order to have a bigger footprint and to help with the immigration process. Eventually moved back to Europe because the immigration process seemed to take for ever (of course, two weeks after letting everybody go and moving back to Europe we received permission to become landed immigrants).<p>I wouldn't do it again with the same country, but really, it was a very nice time.<p>If an opportunity presents itself to move abroad again I'll probably take it (as long as it is not the USA or Canada).<p>Nothing broadens your horizons and teaches you stuff than moving to different places on the planet.<p>Asia in 2013? Who knows ;)<p>Earning money online made stuff considerably easier, it meant that no matter how rotten the local economy was there was always food on the table and transportation.<p>Health insurance is different per country so you'd better check in to that in serious detail before you make your move, there can be all kinds of limitations and liabilities if you mess that up.
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andreshb超过 14 年前
It seems to me all the answers so far make it look far more complicated than what it actually is.<p>What I've done is just travel as tourist staying in each country around 3 months.<p>When I "lived" in Chile I just took weekend 'visa vacations' to Argentina and had my stay extended for another 90 days.<p>Nothing changed in terms of taxes for me, since I never really become resident of another country.<p>Earning money online definitely makes things easier since you never have to be paid as a local in whatever country you are at, therefore, not working there illegally or anything like that.<p>I am not sure how much money your online business makes you, but I usually aim for developing countries, where you can easily live on US $800 - $1200 tops a month. Like bradleyjoyce said I would recommend Latin America. I've lived/traveled/worked in Colombia, Chile, Peru, Argentina, Mexico.<p>Also, very important, make sure you have someone reliable back home that can help you deal with administrative/misc., stuff like depositing a check, receiving important mail, faxing stuff, and the sort of things you may not be able to do online.
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gommm超过 14 年前
I've been doing that for a few years now, first working in Japan, then living for some time in Malaysia, Thailand and China before deciding on settling here for some time..<p>For Japan, I was working there for a Japanese company so it's a bit different...<p>For visas in Malaysia and Thailand, I just switched between both countries for 2-3 months at a time (but stayed more in Malaysia), so I didn't need a visa for such a short time (as a french citizen). Since, my official country of residence at the time was france, I didn't have to pay any taxes. One word of caution, after one year of doing that it started becoming harder to get in Malaysia... So, it's not a long term solution...<p>For China, I've been here under a business visa. According to Chinese law, as long as I'm not a permanent resident (stayed more than 5 years with less than 90 days each year out of the country), I don't have to pay taxes on income outside of China.<p>Regarding health care, I'm using this insurance www.aplusii.com It's aimed at expats, costs 300 euros/months for me and my wife and covers us everywhere in the world except US and Canada (and then it does cover us there in case of accidents). I found them through a broker and would recommend you to consult one just to make sure you are covered in case of problems.<p>To keep costs low, it's a good idea to try and rent apartments for at least one month in each location instead of going to hotels. You get a better view of how people actually live there and it's much cheaper.<p>You can contact me if you have any questions (or decide to drop by in Shanghai), my email is in my profile.
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valentin超过 14 年前
This article is pretty interesting: <a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/aejc4/i_work_through_a_laptop_travel_365_daysyear_to/" rel="nofollow">http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/aejc4/i_work_through_a...</a><p>"I started freelancing in LAMP development 7 years ago. 4 years ago I started taking camping trips around my own country (Australia) &#38; working via Wifi/3G. I soon started making little overseas trips, which got bigger &#38; bigger. In November 2008 I sold my stuff &#38; 'left'; I haven't been home since. I usually work 1 hour/day thanks to the weaker currencies of most places I visit. In richer countries, I work 2-3 hours. 3G modems &#38; hotel WiFi keep me connected, an Australian SkypeIn # forwards to the mobile of whatever country I'm in at the time, Skype lets me call clients when necessary. I'm currently in Nepal having just got out of Tibet. I'm trying to get from Singapore to London without any planes (southern route --&#62; SE-Asia-&#62;China-&#62;(Tibet)-&#62;Nepal-&#62;India-&#62;Pakistan-&#62;Iran-&#62;Turkey-&#62;Europe). AMA."
aeden超过 14 年前
I just recently moved from the US, where my own company is based, to France, where my wife is from. I am still learning about the complications, but I can tell you of some of the challenges I've already dealt with:<p>Currency exchange: rates fluctuate on a regular basis and that makes budgeting a challenge. Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose depending on how the currencies move.<p>Insurance: health insurance by a provider that is outside your country of residence is going to result in some hurdles. You'll have to pay close attention to what your providers rules are for coverage outside of your country.<p>Visas: as long as you only stay long enough to stay qualified as a visitor then visas are probably going to be a non-issue. Once you exceed the amount of time allowed as a visitor then you have to deal with that countries rules for visas and they differ from country to country.<p>Cash, check and credit: acceptance of credit cards and checks in foreign countries will very. Banks tend to charge fees for withdrawing money in other countries so be prepared to eat those fees. Often it is easiest to just use cash, so take enough to get started and have a plan on how to get more while you're there, i.e. figure out where the cash machines are, if they accept your cards and what the fees are.<p>Tax: IANAL nor am I an accountant or tax specialist and I am not sure how it works in the UK. Having said that, the US is a bit odd in that they tax their citizens worldwide, so no matter where I live I will have to pay US taxes. If I am a resident in another country then I'll likely have to pay taxes there as well and then try to get a credit in the US for taxes paid overseas. It's still early for me on this one so I'm not sure exactly how taxes will pay out.<p>I hope this helps. Basically my suggestion is retain your UK residence and take extended "vacations" in countries you want to visit - it'll be a lot less of a hassle then trying to immigrate.
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bradleyjoyce超过 14 年前
Since last May I've been spending increasing amounts of time in Perú doing just that. Recently I've finally made the move more "permanent" as I've rented a house here in Lima and plan on staying a least a year.<p>The easiest way to go about it is to maintain your permanent residence in your home country and enter new countries as a tourist/visitor.<p>This officially means that you can't "work" in the country you are visiting. However, as long as your clients are not local and you get paid to your bank account in your home country, you should be ok.<p>I would highly recommend you review your tax situation for your country, and especially the country you will be visiting if you want to stay longer than their tourist/visitor visa allows.<p>I'm going through all this myself and have started blogging about it at <a href="http://expatentrepreneur.tv" rel="nofollow">http://expatentrepreneur.tv</a> ... A lot of other people blog about the expat digital lifestyle. One I enjoy reading is <a href="http://exilelifestyle.com" rel="nofollow">http://exilelifestyle.com</a> and he has links to quite a few others.<p>I highly recommend South America to you... it has a fast-growing tech/startup community (Chile, Brasil, Argentina, Peru) and there are tons of expats as well.<p>If you make it to Peru feel free to look me up!
jscore超过 14 年前
Don't try working from Brazil; I tried doing it, but I just spend the whole year going out, partying and the beach. Never got any work done, but was the best year of my life.
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philwelch超过 14 年前
Check out expat forums--there are a whole host of countries (largely Latin American) where you can live there on a tourist visa; every 90 days you take a weekend trip to a neighboring country and get a new tourist visa. Since you have an online business you won't be working in the local economy so work authorizations and the like won't be a problem.<p>Also, these countries tend to be really cheap. I know a woman who lived off of blog revenue in Costa Rica; mostly affiliate links to online gambling, which isn't feasible ever since the US government outlawed online gambling.
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elai超过 14 年前
Well you can start a corporation in singapore, panama, labuan or others. All foreign income not repatriated to singapore (i.e, it goes in a bank account in HK instead of singapore) is tax free. Panama corporations do have any tax in all income not derived from Panama. Labuan (in Malaysia) has an other low tax structure.<p>To avoid UK (and Canadian) residents doing a run around on their tax system with these corporations, any corporation who's 'top management' is majority run by residents in the UK (or in the UK) is taxed as if it is a UK corporation. Since your going to be away from the UK, you can remove your UK resident status (you have to do this properly, they can get you with things like still being registered to the NHS or having a residence in the UK still that isn't purely investment property, etc, etc). Once you loose your UK residence (you still stay as a UK citizen forever, your just not resident) your corporation will not have that tax status in the UK, and you do not have to pay taxes to the UK for your worldwide personal income. I don't know how it works when you move around in the EU, it can be different.<p>You can then travel the world as a resident of nowhere and be mostly tax free, with the majority of your income staying in your corporation, and drawing a living expenses income from the corporation. How you want to structure that income (being a corporate expense or personal income), and report it to the country your currently in depends on you and what your doing. It being an online business of you and your laptop, practically you'll not get any problems from working online on whatever tourist visa your using, since it's virtually undetectable and you don't really have to interact with their economy locally. Especially if it is only for one or two visa stays and a developing country. How you deal with that is up to you.<p>If you are going to plan which countries your going to, getting a tourist visa before you leave at an embassy in the UK will be useful, since you can get extra long visa stays vs the stamps you get arriving in the airport. For example you could get a triple entry tourist visa from thailand for free which would get you 3x2month stays in thailand. Your not going to get that from a embassy anywhere near thailand, but somewhere far like the UK would be a lot more likely.<p>For health insurance you can try to get an annual international travel insurance policy if you want to be covered.<p>I am not a lawyer and you should do your own research, but I hope this helps.
csomar超过 14 年前
Tunisia (My country) may be a good place for you. When re-searching on how to start my own company, I found out that non-residents can easily form a company over the Internet and submit all papers (even without being here). Taxes are 10% but if you sign before 2011, you'll pay no taxes for 10 years.<p>Here's the website in question: <a href="http://www.tunisianindustry.nat.tn/en/home.asp" rel="nofollow">http://www.tunisianindustry.nat.tn/en/home.asp</a> It's in English and has lot of useful information. There is a section for online services and they'll answer your email within 24/48 hours. The cost is $100 or so, to form the company.<p>Life in Tunisia is good but not that cheap. You'll also miss your reliable Internet connection (though Water/Electricity are a lot reliable). The weather and food are good. Public services sucks, so you'll need your own car (for example), private medical care, ...
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gexla超过 14 年前
I agree that other people here are making this more complicated than it has to be. Just go from one place to another on a tourist visa for the country you are visiting. Continue to pay takes in your home country and keep your work on the down low in the country you are visiting. You would probably be walking (if not crossing) some thin lines in regards to laws against working while on a tourist visa but I doubt you would have to worry about getting caught.<p>The only thing I have really found difficult is dealing with payment issues. Moving money in its many forms can be a pain. This is a big subject which is highly personalized for each person, so I won't get into it here. Just make sure you have a plan a, b and c for getting access to money and contacting your family when problems appear.
John472超过 14 年前
I'm quite in the same position like you (web business), I tried to go to the US for one year, but the visa progress is hell, too over one year to first tell us it is going to be ok, later revoking it. The US visa system is seriously broken. Other than that issues, I think its a great idea.
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goatforce5超过 14 年前
If I found myself in your shoes, i'd probably be planning an itinerary with one of the round the world tickets offered by the various airline alliances. They're really good value and allow you to see a heck of a lot of the world. And keep in mind you can use the round the world ticket to get to, say, Hong Kong (I love it there - recommended) and then use local budget airlines to hop between South East Asian countries over a few months, and then continue on with your round the world ticket to Australia or elsewhere.<p>The round the world ticket more or less forces you to keep moving as it'll only be valid for 12 months, and so you should be able to get by by just using tourist visas in each country. After a year of hopping around the world you'll be in a position to know whether you want to keep being a nomad, or if there was somewhere you visited that you'd like to go back to a little more permanently.<p>(Keep in mind that if you turn up to pretty much any country and say you intend to stay for 1 or 3 months as a tourist they'll want to know that you can support yourself - have your bank statements handy!)<p>But, yeah: go travel. Do it now before you start putting down roots. I once bought a round the world ticket to do 12 months of backpacking. 14 years on and i'm on my fourth country that i've 'permanently' settled in, with a fair bit of traveling thrown in along the way.
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MiltBaron超过 14 年前
I'm a fellow Brit and I've been running my web biz whilst travelling for about 5 years and totally reccomend that you do it. The visa's taxes, and banking thing can be tricky and is always changing but once you've made the jump it only gets easier. I have been running my online businesses whilst travelling around South East Asia and it totally rocks. mostly renting places in Thailand as a base (and once you have an address you can get a local bank account and other stuff) then because of the different visa rules you have to leave the country every 2-3 months anyway which I like as it sort of forces me to travel more and discover the other places around South East Asia that also support theis lifestyle, Bali, The Phlippines, Malaysia, Singapore, even places that are lesser developed like Laos still have solid internet connections and it is possiable anywhere. The obvious massive bonus is how far our britsh pound goes whilst living in these places. Still having an address (a famliy member or friend)in the uk is real handy also. So you are sort of registered as living in the Uk but travel alot. Then you can keep you existing english banks going. The biggest tip I can offer is buy the plane ticket and everything else will fall into place.
simonw超过 14 年前
I'm doing this right now with my new wife, although our online business (lanyrd.com) isn't exactly profitable yet.<p>We're UK citizens, and we've made sure our company has a registered address in the UK (with our accountant). We'll pay all taxes in the UK - as far as the world is concerned, we're working on our UK business while travelling. We're doing everything on tourist visas since we're not performing any work for foreign companies etc.<p>Our accountant advised us that paying tax in the UK would be a great deal easier than trying to figure out how to pay it in foreign countries. Get a good accountant!<p>We've been travelling for 106 days now, through France, Spain, Morocco and now Egypt. Every single place we have stayed has had WiFi, though occasionally a little flakey. Working and travelling actually go very well together - we'll work in the morning, explore in the afternoon, then maybe work more in the evening. Makes it much less likely you'll over-work and burn yourself out as well.
rdl超过 14 年前
(Thankfully, I am not a lawyer, but I've lived outside the USA for all but 30 months from age 18 to 31. This is not legal advice.)<p>For US citizens, you need to be aware of a lot of additional regulations -- US citizens are taxed globally, and if you make more than the $6k or so minimum, you must file a return every year. You have a certain exemption (approximately $95k now) on your income, so if you make less than $95k per year, you don't owe any tax, but must still file.<p>If you are in a location which has its own taxation, you may need to pay, and then use a tax treaty with the US to deduct foreign taxes paid, avoiding double taxation.<p>Basically, if you have substantial income or assets, you should use an international tax attorney to handle these matters for you. Only an attorney has attorney-client privilege, and your average US tax preparer (or even worse, H+R Block or something) has no clue whatsoever. If you make &#60;$95k/yr and have pretty much just regular taxes, and are not subject to foreign tax (due to traveling on tourist visas and not really establishing yourself), you can probably file yourself -- you don't have a whole lot of deductions, etc., so it's actually fairly straightforward. If you have your own business, it becomes really complex, and I'd really go the tax attorney route.<p>There are lots of weird and non-intuitive special case rules built into the tax code, such as a restriction on "controlled foreign corporations", where &#62;50% or so of the equity is owned by US persons, and are then subject to lots of extra US reporting requirements. This prevents a lot of the naive "keep all income in the corporation, pay yourself a trivial salary, expense all your personal expenses through the corporation" schemes, but also complicates legitimate foreign businesses owned by Americans. This is the kind of stuff you want the tax attorney for.<p>Right now I am personally stuck outside the US for the rest of 2010 due to taxes -- I worked in Iraq until August, making more than $95k, and thus it is a net savings for me of about $20k in taxes by remaining outside the US for the rest of the year, thus keeping my 330 days out of 365 out of the US, than it would be to return to the US. I have 6 days left in the US this year, which I might use for YC interview if I apply.<p>I plan to do my next startup in the US (maybe in tax-advantaged TX or WA vs. CA, but possibly just in the default of Palo Alto); taxes are annoying, but living outside the US is even more annoying.
eps超过 14 年前
Don't know about UK, but in Canada one can stop paying taxes once all "domestic ties" are severed. This means closing all bank accounts, disconnecting all phones and selling the car and the real estate (or alternatively leasing it out for a long term). Even after all this is done, the tax agency (CRA) will not assume you to be a non-resident if you do not stay out of the country for at least 2 years. So it <i>is</i> a hassle. Can't just lock the house, hop on the plane and spend a year travelling.<p>Btw, the best thing to do for you at this point would be to talk to the tax planning advisor. Pick a big accounting firm with lots of experience and in one hour you will know if you want to do I or not.
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mcdowall超过 14 年前
I've looked into this myself to some depth and also have some friends based over in Asia and Sydney doing exactly what you are intending, from my conversations with them the most overriding issue they have complained about is the weakness of the pound, especially in Aus where it has gone from 2.5AUD/£ to about 1.6AUD/£ in a little over 14months.<p>That being said thats really the only grumble I hear, the quality of life (weather especially!) seems to outweigh these issues.<p>Some useful links...<p><a href="http://everything-everywhere.com/" rel="nofollow">http://everything-everywhere.com/</a><p><a href="http://locationindependent.com/" rel="nofollow">http://locationindependent.com/</a>
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organicgrant超过 14 年前
There are bunches of blogs from those that do this as a lifestyle. Thailand is a pretty popular spot for digital expats.<p><a href="http://thrillingheroics.com/about" rel="nofollow">http://thrillingheroics.com/about</a>
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forcer超过 14 年前
I have a UK business and we decided with my wife to travel around the world. We could have saved a lot on our taxes by claiming non-residency etc. but in the end we didn't. We set our business virtual office as our home and all our mail goes there. So far we are having time of our life, travelled 3 months in USA &#38; Canada and currently in Ecuador.<p>The difficulties we have are: - troubles with virtual offce - if you decide for virtual office choose carefuly - its very frustrating if you need to change the address while being abroad - time to actually do any work - there is so much to see in the world and having motivation to keep building your business is tough<p>Things we thought we would have difficulty but they are fine: - internet connection - all around USA &#38; Canada we had wifi everywhere + I bought Verizon mobile internet + ATT data package for iPhone and so wired 24/7 . Also, in South AMerica - Ecuador, you can buy prepaid mobile internet for good price and its reliable - I thought the business will suffer but so far its doing better than before and it probably helped me to realize that if I want to grow my business - I need to hire good people and trust them to do a good job. - pretending you are in UK - I thought I will have hard time in getting new business / contracts signed - but other companies don't mind - in fact I signed biggest clients while being in a campsite in mountains of Canada. all contracts can be Fedexed etc.. no problem at all
hsarvell超过 14 年前
I'm currently living in Thailand (remote programmer) and it's a great country to do these kinds of things from. When it comes to the visa situation here it's kind of difficult, I have a Thai wife which kind of takes care of that for me, otherwise your best option is probably getting a student visa. The internet connection is not the fastest (max 100k/s to the EU/US) but it's very stable even out here in the jungle.
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Mal27超过 14 年前
As far as tax goes, it differs a lot from country to country, at least with the UK, you don't have to pay their taxes if you are mostly in another country.<p>In some countries, merely visiting them for a holiday while being in charge of a business abroad is considered taxable.
math超过 14 年前
I'm currently in Phnom Penh (Cambodia) doing this and it's working out extremely well. Extended visas are easy to get (note: pay the extra $5 on entry and get a business visa if you want to extend). Love the people and the place.
MarinaMartin超过 14 年前
I've been considering an arrangement like this too, only I've heard a number of stories about people who kept taking "weekend" trips to renew their 90 day visas only to one day not be able to re-enter the country. I've overstayed an EU visa and no one seemed to care (I was traveling so much between EU countries that I honestly wasn't even thinking about it) but if you overstay somewhere like Singapore you can literally get caned. I'd look into countries where there are easier ways to get &#62;90 day tourist visas, like Cambodia or Hong Kong.
maneesh超过 14 年前
I've been living abroad since 2007, living in Italy, Spain, Argentina, Brazil, India, Colombia and Mexico. I'm a US citizen. For US citizens interested in working on their business, you should know this: if you live outside of the US for 330 days in any 365-day period, you can deduct 100% of the taxes on your income, up to $91,400...<p>So I lived in India and Italy and Mexico/Colombia for the last year, earning in dollars, spending in rupees and pesos. For americans who have their own web business, it's something to think about....
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dageshi超过 14 年前
As a British Citizen Hong Kong is perhaps an idea, six month entry stamp no hassle. Perhaps buying a shelf company there, I think personal income tax is 15%? I know most taxes there are fairly low. If you do check out Lamma Island as a potential place to stay.<p>Otherwise, Cambodia is a pretty good shout, 1 year business visa costs about $300 (multientry) (no paperwork). That's the best visa I know of in Asia.
dpapathanasiou超过 14 年前
I have no experience with this myself, but I did read this article on the BBC's site earlier today about being an expat in Uruguay: <a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-11397130" rel="nofollow">http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-11397130</a><p>Apparently, as long as you can prove a monthly income of at least $650, you can get a visa to stay.
whopper超过 14 年前
I have been doing the same thing since 2001. In the UK, USA, Italy, Australia, switzerland. I am now in southern california I am a us citizen but if you are a foreigner you can easily and within 2 months buy yourself a place in the USA by getting a E2 Visa - Invest $120K in your own viable business (investments include your salary) and you are in!
Vivtek超过 14 年前
I've done this since the 90's (I mean, not continuously). Your ATM card works anywhere; as long as you can keep everything at your bank at home working online or through the mail, travel on a tourist visa and work as you go. Pay your taxes at home.<p>There's nothing like it. You can't really understand a place in less than a year.
Spoutingshite超过 14 年前
Don't be concerned with immigration issues for a while and leave your business registration and taxation status in the UK.<p>Sort out all the paperwork if or when you decide to settle down...in the meantime stay nimble, have fun and travel.
known超过 14 年前
Visa processing made easy at <a href="http://www.visanow.com/resources/visadirectory/Visa_Directory_home_page.aspx" rel="nofollow">http://www.visanow.com/resources/visadirectory/Visa_Director...</a>
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PaulJoslin超过 14 年前
Head over to Asia, you can get your Visa really easily, then extend your visa over there by just crossing the border and returning again.<p>The cost of living is low and the atmosphere is great.
ww520超过 14 年前
How do you guys deal with re-imaging a laptop in case the old one was lost? Do you keep an image online somewhere?
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cjg超过 14 年前
Don't forget that as a UK citizen you can live anywhere in Europe without a visa.
tfh超过 14 年前
Could you be more specific about your online business?