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American Cities Are Drowning in Car Storage

219 点作者 caiobegotti将近 7 年前

26 条评论

angarg12将近 7 年前
I visited the US (particularly the bay area) for the first time recently, and I was baffled by the sparsity of buildings. Suburbs and shopping areas are so far away that you need a car to go anywhere, and in turn you need massive expanses to held all those vehicles, which means that stores are even more spread apart, which essentially becomes a snowball.<p>Being used to high density housing and underground parking spaces all those open parking lots seem nonsensical to me, even more considering the alleged housing shortage over there.
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jjeaff将近 7 年前
This article tries to make the (weak) point that there is plenty of parking simply because averages show they spots sit empty most of the time.<p>But that type of analysis ignores the obvious fact that most parking is built to support peak times. Most mall parking lots sit mostly empty, except on the weekends when everyone goes to the mall or restaurants or whatever. Corporate lots sit empty on the weekends.<p>Cut any of these lots by 25% and you cause real problems.<p>You could apply the same analysis to home occupancy and conclude that since most homes are sitting empty for 8 hrs a day, we could&#x2F;should reduce the number of homes by 25% and be none the wiser.
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jaysonelliot将近 7 年前
Until cities have a better alternative to driving than &quot;use our terrible mass transit in our poorly-designed cities,&quot; this will remain a problem.<p>American cities are designed for cars, so that bicycles, scooters, or any other human-scale transportation is not just inconvenient, it&#x27;s dangerous. Forcing skateboards, scooters, gyros, bicycles, etc., into the road with 4,000 pound cars is insanely dangerous. If you&#x27;re riding something that can&#x27;t be carried into a building with you, it&#x27;s inconvenient at best to park it outside.<p>Just removing parking from new construction won&#x27;t solve the problem, it will compound it. People still won&#x27;t want to get on slow, crowded, uncomfortable buses or packed, unreliable, dirty trains. We&#x27;ll just get more people driving endlessly around the block looking for parking and polluting the air, more accidents from drivers hitting people in the road, more sprawl as people shun the city so they can drive in the suburbs instead.<p>Roads have to be repurposed to make light personal transportation safe. Take every two-way two-lane and split it into a one-way, with a physical separation between a car side and a personal transport side. Remove parking from the curbs, and put it in the middle so one side can be for cars and the other for bikes, scooters, skaters, etc.<p>Public transit needs a major overhaul, major investment, and a new attitude. It has to be about riders&#x27; comfort, convenience, and happiness, not just jamming people into routes as if they were statistics in a planning meeting.<p>New development should be aimed at walkable, human-scale neighborhoods, planned for people first, not cars.<p>All these things have to happen to solve the problem. It won&#x27;t be easy, but unless we do something like that, we&#x27;ll be living with the car problem for a very long time to come.
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fencepost将近 7 年前
If anyone in city government is smart Chicago is going to have no real choice but to go against this trend because of its utterly atrocious parking meter deal 10+ years ago - or they&#x27;re going to have to take that glut of spaces and make them free parking to try to get out of the deal.<p>Basically the city committed to keeping a fixed number of street parking spaces for 75 years in exchange for a pittance. If spaces are closed for construction or eliminated completely, the city has to pay the private company for those spaces as if they were being used. Want bike lanes? Don&#x27;t forget to account for the paying for all those eliminated parking spaces. Pedestrian only areas? See above. Ride sharing cutting into driving? Guess they&#x27;ll have plenty of empty space to pick up and drop off in - unless there&#x27;s a way for the parking meter company to charge for that couple of minutes in a parking space.<p>But it&#x27;s not all bad - the city only has to put up with it until 2083.<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.urbanophile.com&#x2F;2018&#x2F;05&#x2F;17&#x2F;chicago-parking-meter-lease-slow-motion-train-wreck-only-has-65-more-years-to-go&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.urbanophile.com&#x2F;2018&#x2F;05&#x2F;17&#x2F;chicago-parking-meter-...</a>
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mattlondon将近 7 年前
I always thought it was weird how there is so much parking in the centre of US cities.<p>When I talk to colleagues in various US cities and they say they drive to work it just <i>Does. Not. Compute</i>. In central London, driving to work is essentially unheard of unless you are the Prime Minister.<p>There is parking available in London, but the prices are fairly high - I just had a quick look on parkopedia [1] and it looks like 08:30-17:00 would set you back anywhere from £25 to £50 a day (about the same as half to a full tank of petrol or diesel). Then add in congestion charging @ £11.50 a day [2] and you&#x27;re looking at £35-£60 a day in fees before you add in your hassle factor of the traffic and paying for fuel<p>Understandably, as a result a lot of people use public transport. Sure its fairly decent in London, but thats only because people use it and pay for it so there are funds to reinvest into making it run effectively.<p>If suddenly the average US driver was looking at paying $100&#x2F;day to drive to work (or $2000 a month), I am sure that they could handle sitting on a bus for $10&#x2F;day and pocket the $90 change, while the public transit gets better and better as a result.<p>This is a solvable problem.<p>1 - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.parkopedia.com&#x2F;parking&#x2F;locations&#x2F;tottenham_court_road_tube_station_oxford_st_london_england_w1d_2dh_united_kingdom_gcpvj40xp75&#x2F;?arriving=201807160830&amp;leaving=201807161700" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.parkopedia.com&#x2F;parking&#x2F;locations&#x2F;tottenham_court_...</a><p>2 - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;tfl.gov.uk&#x2F;modes&#x2F;driving&#x2F;congestion-charge" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;tfl.gov.uk&#x2F;modes&#x2F;driving&#x2F;congestion-charge</a>
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kosei将近 7 年前
&gt; In Philadelphia, there are 3.7 times more parking spaces than households<p>Honestly, this number seems reasonable to me, when you consider that people could be parking at a) their home, b) their work, and c) at any number of other places (restaurant, grocery store, mall, etc). Not to mention, each household may have more than one car. It&#x27;s probably too high in aggregate, but we don&#x27;t park by average, we park for specific means, and if the lot at the grocery store is full, or at our work, or at home, we consider that to be an inconvenience and want more spots.<p>The only way to change this is to move away from the 1-2 car-per-family model we live in right now.
lisper将近 7 年前
If you think about it, it has to be this way. The whole point of parking is that it has to be available <i>on demand</i>, which means you need to build enough capacity to satisfy <i>peak</i> usage <i>at the destination</i>. If you had full parking utilization, people have to queue to park, and that would defeat the purpose of getting to your destination quickly.<p>You either need excess parking, or none at all, and shift to all non-private vehicles (which includes things like taxis and Uber). But having fully utilized parking is the worst of all possible worlds.
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burfog将近 7 年前
It is highly misleading to point out that &quot;In Des Moines, for example, there are 18 times as many parking spaces per acre as households&quot;. Well sure, commercial areas don&#x27;t have households but they still need parking.<p>Not even questioning the numbers, which might be carefully picked, I come to the opposite conclusion. To me, &quot;In Seattle, the parking occupancy rate downtown is 64 percent.&quot; means that there is very little room for surges. Business is impacted when the availability of parking isn&#x27;t 100% reliable.
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oneplane将近 7 年前
Maybe it&#x27;s just me, but in larger cities, cars seem like an incredibly inefficient and impractical idea to transport people inside those cities. Maybe just dump the cars outside when you want to get in? Or just don&#x27;t own cars and share them as a stopgap until a better solution is put in place?
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brudgers将近 7 年前
I think parking capacity probably reduces to a local scheduling problem [1]. If it does, it reduces to a 3-sat problem and this would mean optimum parking is NP-complete. Most of the time a parking space more than 400m away is irrelevant [2] and when it comes to where a person parks relative to their home the acceptable radius is probably 100m or less...Des Moines is cold in the winter, hot in the summer, and gets storms at the scale of the Great Plains several times a year.<p>The marginal cost of a parking space is low. The heuristic for structured parking has long been $10,000 per space. Over a 30 year building life cycle that&#x27;s less than $1&#x2F;day. Private surface parking is a few cents and on street public parking is nothing...and often so is even that expensive structured parking because the $1&#x2F;day of capital costs makes parking a potentially lucrative business. This means that the most cost effective way to avoid scheduling bottlenecks is with capacity that far exceeds the average rate or median demand.<p>To put it another way, all that parking is what a working system looks like. Sure Des Moines might not need 1.6 million parking spaces -- but it&#x27;s probably not far from what&#x27;s necessary to provide required for reasonable livability at the density and geography [3] of Des Moines. Recovering all those parking spaces for development doesn&#x27;t do a lot for Des Moines. It&#x27;s not severely space constrained by an ocean like NYC or SF and so the economic value of conversion is not lower.<p>To put it another way, land use for parking in Des Moines (or other cities) largely reflects an economic equilibrium in the real-estate market. When there&#x27;s too much, it gets converted to other uses over time...and when regulations are impediments, major local real-estate interests get those regulations relaxed&#x2F;modified&#x2F;removed. [4]<p>[1]: The size of the &#x27;local&#x27; may vary, but it&#x27;s much much smaller than Des Moines and difficult even down to the scale of on-street parking for a single urban block.<p>[2]: Based on the heuristic of 1&#x2F;4 mile reasonable walking radius in urban environments.<p>[3]: Consider that the Des Moines river runs through the city and a parking space on one side of the river is not generally fungible with a parking space on the other side. The river complicates public transit by bottlenecking surface transit with bridges and subsurface transit with tunnels.<p>[4]: Institutions with teams of $600&#x2F;hr real estate lawyers and fifty year investment horizons.
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daviator88将近 7 年前
It&#x27;s no wonder Seattle&#x27;s garages often sit empty, a parking space goes for minimum of $4 per hour
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AtlasBarfed将近 7 年前
Another problem begging for self-driving cars.<p>Have the car drop you off, then self-drive to an offsite parking, and then return when summoned.<p>This model would also support mobile &quot;gear boxes&quot; where you have activity-focused mobile storage pods of gear (think toolboxes for trade work, or a surfing&#x2F;beach pod with your beach gear, or a biking&#x2F;triathlon pod with all your triathlon gear), which I think will be a huge benefit once self-driving hits reality.<p>Rather than have storage units where you can&#x27;t easily get to your stuff because of the side trip and annoyance of loading&#x2F;unloading, you have modular storage that can be summoned to a spot and purpose needed.<p>That would reduce storage needs in urban areas as well, so you could further enhance density.
stretchwithme将近 7 年前
Once automated vehicles take over (eventually), most people will switch to taxis. Taking taxis everywhere will be cheaper than owning your own vehicle. So the need to park will be greatly reduced.<p>Eventually, mass transit will fail and underground subways will be repurposed for AVs. Parking will be built underground for off peak storage of vehicles, allowing the repurposing of surface parking spots. Maybe agricultural robots will make use of them.<p>Cities will get quieter.
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nlawalker将近 7 年前
<i>&gt;&gt; Parking spaces are everywhere, but for some reason the perception persists that there’s “not enough parking.”</i><p>I imagine most people will perceive that there&#x27;s not enough parking unless there&#x27;s an open spot right out front of where they&#x27;re going when they get there.<p>Services that facilitate parking further away from your destination might help.
loonyballoonys将近 7 年前
In the USA, from what I have seen, public transportation is a punishment for being poor.
yuhong将近 7 年前
It would be fun to do the math if every one of the parking spots had EV charging
gok将近 7 年前
I wonder what we’ll do with all this space once AVs take over.
nickthemagicman将近 7 年前
You either pay for parking or get a ticket. It must make incredible amounts of money for all involved.
amelius将近 7 年前
Self-driving cars will solve the whole parking problem.
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MisterTea将近 7 年前
edit tl;dr there is plenty of parking where it&#x27;s not needed and too little parking where it is needed.<p>I think the main problem is not the amount of parking but the distribution of parking. I live in NYC and avoid driving around the city as much as possible except off peak and short local runs.<p>The big problem is commercial centers tend to be high density and clustered together. For example, queens boulevard between Forest Hills and Rego Park has dozens of restaurants and shops where the number of parking spots on the block vs. the number of people concentrated on that block is where the problem begins. A restaurant with one or two parking spots in front might have two dozen people people inside including staff requiring at least six parking spots (assuming couples).<p>My neighborhood Ozone Park is in south Queens and live is a part that is a block from the A train. Super convenient location as everything is in walking distance of a few blocks including the train. There is also a school around the block. So every morning dozens of commuters pack the neighborhood looking for parking for the train and then add the teachers and other school staff who only get about two dozen reserved spots and half are blocked by construction. Your driveway is frequently partly blocked and finding street parking during weekdays is brutal until about 7-8PM.<p>So the blocks along the train stations are municipal free-for all parking lots. As you push out into the back areas away from the commercial cacophony there is street parking so long as the neighborhood was built with sanity meaning homes have functional driveways (most don&#x27;t or can only fit a single car). And there are plenty of those areas spread throughout the city but the parking goes to waste. Then throw in neighborhoods of row houses with no driveways and again, the housing density outweighs the parking.<p>Face it, no planning was done for the automobile in major cities. Parking allotment is abysmal and to make things worse, maximizing the dwelling square footage is what all developers aim for to maximize the value. So there is zero incentive to build in sane parking. This is an example of a nearby 10 apartment home that was built with parking for about 8-10 vehicles if people park front to back and side-by-side underneath the front half: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.google.com&#x2F;maps&#x2F;@40.683022,-73.8445675,3a,75y,75.15h,91.16t&#x2F;data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-bqQmiu-VhaU5mt2H5TjUQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.google.com&#x2F;maps&#x2F;@40.683022,-73.8445675,3a,75y,75...</a><p>Not exactly a pretty example. Down the block from me a single story ranch with a big back yard was bought by a developer, demolished and three two family homes built with the easy ability to add an illegal basement apartment with a little modding (it was so obvious when we toured them during sale). There used to be more parking on weekends before those homes went in. Now even weekend parking can be tough. And this type of development is happening all over NYC. Single family homes are bought up demolished and replaced with 4+ apartments each of which usually bring one car into the neighborhood. They also build little or no parking in. The requirements for parking are easily cheated with a long driveway that is only practical for one or two cars to use as you can&#x27;t practically park six cars back to back. No one is building single family homes anymore.<p>Summary: it&#x27;s a damn mess.
Semirhage将近 7 年前
I’m from Italy, and until I lived in America for a while I’d never understood just how massive the US really is. I lived on two coasts, in two states that were both much larger than my entire country! People like to point to Berlin or Paris as model cities, but they’re population centers in countries that could fit inside Texas without making a splash. I’m not saying that US car culture is entirely healthy, or that it couldn’t benefit from more and better public transport in major cities. I’m always annoyed though, to see these conversations on HN ignore the sheer size of the country in question. Of course it’s spread out, it’s enormous!<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.lesswrong.com&#x2F;posts&#x2F;Hifamb4LTgQooDBYj&#x2F;worth-remembering-when-comparing-the-us-to-europe" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.lesswrong.com&#x2F;posts&#x2F;Hifamb4LTgQooDBYj&#x2F;worth-reme...</a>
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dawhizkid将近 7 年前
Personally very excited Travis (former Uber CEO) is CEO of City Storage Systems now to basically future proof antiquated urban real estate like parking or retail.
21将近 7 年前
&gt; Parking is also extremely expensive to construct and maintain.<p>Say what? It&#x27;s a fucking concrete slab.<p>Maybe they mean expensive in land cost.
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paulsutter将近 7 年前
“Without tunnels we’ll be in traffic hell forever” -Elon Musk
RickJWagner将近 7 年前
This is good-- it&#x27;s where those fantastic barn-finds come from.
Felz将近 7 年前
We can build over all of the parking lots once driverless cars become a thing, can&#x27;t we?<p>Public transportation looks awfully like a dead end in that light. If you don&#x27;t have to park and drive them, cars are better in nearly every way.
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