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Melatonin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know

711 点作者 cepp将近 7 年前

39 条评论

anonu将近 7 年前
Couple anecdotal points:<p>- Used to have to sleep problems - mainly just my mind racing with all the (stress of) things I had to do. The symptoms were trouble sleeping and&#x2F;or waking in the middle of the night with instant thoughts of projects, task lists.<p>- Melatonin didn&#x27;t help me much. Maybe their effect was too subtle on me - maybe I was using the wrong dose as mentioned in the post.<p>- Magnesium Glycinate pills before sleep were a massive help in falling asleep and staying asleep. The only way I can describe its effects is helping me &quot;control my brain waves&quot;. Sounds a bit non-technical but the effect is quite subtle . The idea to take these supplements were from previous discussions on HN.<p>- Recently got a newborn baby - first child. These things will do more to knock you sleep cycle out whack than anything else I&#x27;ve experienced. Coincidentally, falling asleep and staying asleep is easier than ever. You just end up getting woken up by a tiny crying human at seemingly random times.
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beagle3将近 7 年前
While melatonin helped me, the results were inconsistent.<p>However, 10,000IU of vitamin D3 before 10am (see e.g. [0] for discussion and analysis that do NOT support my regime) seem to consistently give me a good reliable sleep schedule.<p>I was definitely not as thorough as Gwern, nor comparing to placebo - but for decades I have tried tens of different sleep aids, most of them useless, some working for a couple of weeks and then not, melatonin being inconsistent - with vitamin D feeling like a jackpot.<p>If you care to experiment, do your own reading on dosing - it should be adjusted down if you spend any time in the sun - but it should 25-50IU&#x2F;lb of body weight, which is way higher than the FDA RDA. This is not medical advice. I am not a medical professional, nor do I play one on TV. YMMV. Proceed at your own risk.<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.gwern.net&#x2F;zeo&#x2F;Vitamin-D" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.gwern.net&#x2F;zeo&#x2F;Vitamin-D</a>
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amaccuish将近 7 年前
Melatonin has genuinely changed my life in regards to sleep. I&#x27;d tried everything and for exams went on Zopiclone, and then found the gold that is Melatonin. Thoroughly recommend anyone with suitable problems sleeping giving it a go.<p>(I was DSPD, though every so often did the whole &quot;Non-24-Hour-Sleep Disorder&quot; thing)
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skadamat将近 7 年前
Every single person here, if your serious about diving into the science of sleep, should read Matthew Walker&#x27;s book: Why We Sleep: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amazon.com&#x2F;Why-We-Sleep-Unlocking-Dreams&#x2F;dp&#x2F;1501144316" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amazon.com&#x2F;Why-We-Sleep-Unlocking-Dreams&#x2F;dp&#x2F;1501...</a><p>His interview on Joe Rogan is a good summary: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=pwaWilO_Pig" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=pwaWilO_Pig</a><p>He covers everything from why we sleep (obv), naps, melatonin, etc. I&#x27;ve just finished it and really enjoyed it.
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drasticmeasures将近 7 年前
From the article:<p>&gt;The consensus stresses that melatonin is a very weak hypnotic. The Buscemi meta-analysis cites this as their reason for declaring negative results despite a statistically significant effect – the supplement only made people get to sleep about ten minutes faster. “Ten minutes” sounds pretty pathetic, but we need to think of this in context. Even the strongest sleep medications, like Ambien, only show up in studies as getting you to sleep ten or twenty minutes faster; this New York Times article says that “viewed as a group, [newer sleeping pills like Ambien, Lunesta, and Sonata] reduced the average time to go to sleep 12.8 minutes compared with fake pills, and increased total sleep time 11.4 minutes.” I don’t know of any statistically-principled comparison between melatonin and Ambien, but the difference is hardly (pun not intended) day and night.<p>&gt;Rather than say “melatonin is crap”, I would argue that all sleeping pills have measurable effects that vastly underperform their subjective effects. The linked article speculates on one reason this might be: people have low awareness around the time they get to sleep, and a lot of people’s perception of whether they’re insomniac or not is more anxiety (or sometimes literally dream) than reality. This is possible, but I also think of this in terms of antidepressant studies, which find similarly weak objective effects despite patients (and doctors) who swear by them and say they changed their lives. If I had to guess, I would say that the studies include an awkward combination of sick and less-sick people and confuse responders and non-responders. Maybe this is special pleading. I don’t know. But if you think any sleeping pill works well, melatonin doesn’t necessarily work much worse than that.<p>The evidence says that it&#x27;s a very weak hypnotic. The writer then makes a long, pseudoscientific argument against the evidence, while making a claim that their article is scientific, even though it wasn&#x27;t peer reviewed. They make a cherry-picked comparison to Ambien, Lunesta and Sonata based on an article by non-scientific newspaper New York Times to bolster their claims; they ignore the ability of other, more potent hypnotics to improve time to sleep and sleep length in mental illness-caused insomnia -- on whom melatonin may be ineffective -- and in people with different causes for their sleep disorders.<p>I leave it as an exercise to the reader to find the other flaws in the article.
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jwilliams将近 7 年前
I regularly take long haul flights (12+ hours) and take Melatoin for Jet Lag.<p>I&#x27;ll take twice. With the flights I take this usually works out to before sleeping on the plane (which ideally is the same&#x2F;close to bed-time at the destination). And then the first night at the destination.<p>In combination with other tricks -- I&#x27;ve found it really effective.
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hendzen将近 7 年前
If you regularly buy Melatonin, I highly recommend Trader Joes Brand chewable Melatonin tablets.<p>In my area they cost $2.99 for a bottle, far below the cost of other brands, and the dosage per tablet is 0.5mg or 500mcg which for me is pretty optimal.<p>EDIT: corrected units.
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geofft将近 7 年前
Re dosages - I recently found melatonin in liquid &#x2F; dropper bottle form at one of my local drugstores, intended to be mixed into a glass of water or similar. The &quot;dosage&quot; is 1 mg, but that requires 4 droppers - so a single dropper is 250 µg, and it&#x27;s very easy to do less than that (although not with much accuracy).<p>If you don&#x27;t want to buy from some online nootropics store just to get a 300µg dose, check your local drugstore or vitamin store for liquid melatonin, and read the label and see how much each dropper is.<p>I just took a ~half-dropper with a glass of water because I&#x27;m still up. Good night!
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macawfish将近 7 年前
Magnesium is very important. Magnesium deficient rats were shown to have decreased melatonin.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov&#x2F;m&#x2F;pubmed&#x2F;17172005&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov&#x2F;m&#x2F;pubmed&#x2F;17172005&#x2F;</a><p>It&#x27;s also protective against hypercalcemia, so if you&#x27;re taking vitamin D, make sure you&#x27;re getting enough magnesium.<p>I&#x27;ve even read that magnesium alone can mitigate the symptoms of vitamin D deficiency.
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iEchoic将近 7 年前
&gt; Yes. Most existing melatonin tablets are around ten to thirty times the correct dose.<p>I couldn&#x27;t find an explanation why they&#x27;d be sold at this dose from this article, which makes me suspicious of this. Am I missing something? What would be the motive for this?
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qwerty456127将近 7 年前
Wow! I&#x27;ve started with 2.5 mg and now 20 mg does nothing to me. I&#x27;ve been doing it sooo wrong. I hope the tolerance is going to fall now as I&#x27;ve stopped taking it and I will be able to use it the right way going with 0.3mg. That&#x27;s such a pity you can&#x27;t just get any better kind of a sleeping pill without a prescription if you don&#x27;t want to mess with circadian rhythms and just want to fall asleep whenever you have time but can&#x27;t. So many people actually have irregular schedules: day and night shifts mixed chaotically etc. I actually don&#x27;t think I know anybody who would go to bed at the same time every night. I wish I had Ambien for occasions like that (I don&#x27;t drive) but it seems impossible to get without a doctor.<p>In fact I&#x27;ve tried to do some research but failed to find any information about undesirable effects and DON&#x27;Ts of melatonin at the time when I&#x27;ve started taking it (some years ago). It seemed a wonder drug everybody should be taking all the time - it just makes you sleep well whenever you choose to, protects from oxidative stress, boosts your immunity etc. But now I know: tolerance (including tolerance to endogenic melatonin which means screwing your natural circadian system) is what you pay (I could find not a single mention of melatonin tolerance until today).
elchief将近 7 年前
I used to suffer terrible sleep until recently. Always exhausted in the morning. Sore all over. Missed meetings, or called in sick some days. Would wake up around 11 if I could<p>Now I can wake up around 630 am, lift weights, do HIIT, and be early to work<p>Melatonin wakes me up in the middle of the night. I take Unisom (Doxylamine) as well. Works pretty well in combination<p>I have blackout curtains but I need some light to wake me up in the am, so I leave them open about six inches on one side<p>I eat a small organic meal for dinner, early as I can, usually by 630
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taeric将近 7 年前
Are there statistics somewhere on how many folks use an alarm clock? Every time I think I have a sleeping problem, I&#x27;m always harshly reminded of how different my sleeping habits are by virtue of the fact that I have never used an alarm clock. Something that it seems near universal among everyone else. (Though, I suspect it is just something everyone talks about. Hypothesis being that I&#x27;m in the majority, but there is just nothing to say about not using one.)
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GuardianCaveman将近 7 年前
I never took it because I read a long time ago that it causes your body to decrease melatonin production long term. I guess that’s just a myth because people in this thread seem very positive about using it long term.
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chmars将近 7 年前
Melatonin is usually not (freely) sold in Europe while it can be easily bought in the US like vitamin pills or cod liver oil.<p>Is there a recommendable online option with international delivery?<p>(I don&#x27;t consider the usual &#x27;online pharmacies&#x27; recommendable. Even when buying Melatonin in a store in the US, there&#x27;s still the issue that Melatonin manufacturers and sellers mostly control themselves …)
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moultano将近 7 年前
Melatonin has been a lifesaver for me after having kids and for a few other new parents I know that I&#x27;ve recommended it to. Somehow it allows you to get much more rest out of interrupted sleep.
20years将近 7 年前
Melatonin has also shown to help with certain cancers especially breast. Ref: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov&#x2F;pmc&#x2F;articles&#x2F;PMC5412427&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov&#x2F;pmc&#x2F;articles&#x2F;PMC5412427&#x2F;</a>
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protomok将近 7 年前
Just a quick warning for those considering Melatonin before a flight or for adjusting to jet lag:<p>About a week before a long flight I decided to test Melatonin and took a single 3mg tablet (smallest dosage I could find at my local pharmacy) before I went to bed. My sleep quality seemed unchanged but right after breakfast the next day I had gastro issues.<p>I tried a 3 mg tablet again a few days later and had the same symptoms.<p>I gave up on Melatonin deciding it was better to be wide awake over the Pacific than stuck in a tiny airplane bathroom :)<p>YMMV but other folks online have had similar side effects. It seems a small % of people have gastro issues but if you&#x27;re considering Melatonin I suggest a small dosage first (maybe 0.3mg as recommended by the article) and a test _before_ travelling!
ipunchghosts将近 7 年前
I see lots of posts bashing melatonin.<p>I take 0.5mg&#x2F;night one hour before bed and it helps calm my mind and get right to sleep. It also helps me with my reflux!
Leary将近 7 年前
Melatonin is also an antioxidant. Does anyone know its effects on physical health?
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yosito将近 7 年前
I&#x27;m reading HN because I have insomnia after upping my Melatonin dose from 2.5mg to 5mg at the recommendation of my psychiatrist. I&#x27;ve never had the early morning jolt of energy until the last couple of days. Maybe I&#x27;ll drop my dosage down to 1.75mg tomorrow. That&#x27;s about the lowest I can get with these 10mg pills.
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cbs_vs_dbs将近 7 年前
As someone who works from home 90% of the time and sleeps&#x2F;works in a room with a huge skylight, I&#x27;ve never had better sleep, energy, and overall &quot;consistency&quot; with my body. The most notable issues being that I actually feel sleepy when it&#x27;s time to sleep, and I can fall asleep within minutes. I&#x27;ve never really experienced that before.<p>I used to work nightshifts with mostly light-blocking shades, and the only natural sunlight was the light that came in from the small gap above the room partition (I lived in a flex room&#x2F;living room). That set-up was the worst.<p>I&#x27;ve had various life variables and combinations of them, but aside from the night-shift one, and obvious ones like constant sleep deprivation, it does seem like sunlight is playing the next-most significant role in helping to regulate my body and sleep.
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k__将近 7 年前
I always dream much when taking Melatonin, which makes the sleep less refreshing.
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amorphous将近 7 年前
I have a very different sleep aid. A sleep headphone (a headband with speakers woven into that also serves as an eye-mask) combined with white noise (quality rain sound) served by an iPod. The white noise blocks outside sounds much better than earplugs, and the rain soothes me into sleep (always loved it when it rains outside and I&#x27;m in bed).<p>It has become a crutch for me, sometimes I do worry if I have become too dependent on that arrangement, but it works well. In summer the headband can get hot though.
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foxyv将近 7 年前
I will always sing the praises of Trazodone for dealing with sleep issues. It worked extremely well for me and my parents. It&#x27;s normally used at very large doses as a last line for clinical depression. However at smaller doses it&#x27;s an extremely effective sleep aid for some people. It also doesn&#x27;t make you to sleepy like other drugs. It just makes getting to sleep easy.
Nihilartikel将近 7 年前
The but about th optimal dose being 0.3mg is interesting. I&#x27;ve been nibbling the corners of 3mg pills for years now, since the full strength always left me with a weird sleep hangover, or I would end up bolt awake but still sleepy at 4am..
solarengineer将近 7 年前
I&#x27;ve been practicing mindfulness meditation for a few weeks. I&#x27;m in week four now, and I&#x27;m getting good results. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;palousemindfulness.com" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;palousemindfulness.com</a>
DougN7将近 7 年前
What a great article. Explains why melatonin works for my wife for a short time but then stops working (dosage in store-bought pills is too high and stays in the system too long).
tananaev将近 7 年前
I occasionally use Melatonin to help me sleep on planes or adjust to new timezone, but I don&#x27;t think it&#x27;s a good idea to take it regularly.
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gingerlime将近 7 年前
Anyone knows why Melatonin is available so easily in the US, but you need a prescription for it in Europe? (I haven’t asked my GP though)
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jaequery将近 7 年前
anyone here tried breathing exercises to help with better sleep? i am noticing that at times when i am taking deep and slow breaths before sleeping, i have a dramatically higher quality sleep.
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ve55将近 7 年前
Some related posts by the same author, some about drugs (SSRIs and Adderall), some about other topics: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;slatestarcodex.com&#x2F;tag&#x2F;much-more-than-you-wanted-to-know&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;slatestarcodex.com&#x2F;tag&#x2F;much-more-than-you-wanted-to-...</a>
zawerf将近 7 年前
It&#x27;s always unclear whether you&#x27;re reading crackpot or not especially around the nootropics crowd.<p>In this case the author seems to be a psychiatrist so he should be trustworthy: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;slatestarcodex.com&#x2F;about&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;slatestarcodex.com&#x2F;about&#x2F;</a>
baccheion将近 7 年前
A good multivitamin stack (for example, AOR Ortho-Core + Life Extension D &amp; K in the morning and 4 Doctor&#x27;s Best High Absorption Magnesium pills at night 5 days&#x2F;week) is probably better than raw melatonin.
TACIXAT将近 7 年前
I have cut out sugar and caffeine for dietary reasons and my sleep schedule did not improve at all. I tried those red shift apps and they did not change my sleep schedule. The last few weeks I was not working on my computer late at night and got tired at a reasonable time. Now that I am back working on my side project, having interesting problems to solve (one more feature before bed!) and the bright screen, I am starting to stay up late again.<p>I notice when I do everything right I don&#x27;t have a problem waking up before 8 hours. Normally I shoot for 8:30 and have trouble going to sleep and getting up. Also when I am in a good sleep schedule I sometimes wake up in the middle of the night, use the restroom, meditate if I&#x27;m awake enough, then go back to sleep.<p>I am sad to say that with most of the other factors controlled, bright screens are the likely cause of my sleep issues. This is hard for me because screen is life.
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IBM将近 7 年前
What time should you take melatonin if you don&#x27;t have any major sleep problems but want to improve sleep quality?
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stealthmodeclan将近 7 年前
When I was working long hours at an startup. My sleep cycle got disturbed.<p>Here is what works for me:<p>1. Reduce room temperature to 25*C. Go to bed at 10:30pm<p>2. Automatically shutdown the airconditioner at 4:30am.<p>3. Jump out of bed at 5am without any alarm clock.<p>This habit continues in the month when no airconditioner is needed.
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js2将近 7 年前
Dupe from three weeks ago:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=17505380" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=17505380</a>
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megaman22将近 7 年前
Melatonin doses of the standard distribution seem great for crazy fucking dreams, but little else.<p>Drinking two Rolling Rocks or PBR distilleries is more effective;
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