TE
科技回声
首页24小时热榜最新最佳问答展示工作
GitHubTwitter
首页

科技回声

基于 Next.js 构建的科技新闻平台,提供全球科技新闻和讨论内容。

GitHubTwitter

首页

首页最新最佳问答展示工作

资源链接

HackerNews API原版 HackerNewsNext.js

© 2025 科技回声. 版权所有。

A Massive Battery that Can Store Solar and Wind Energy

115 点作者 antr超过 6 年前

20 条评论

chrido超过 6 年前
As a side note, since the article also mentions that:<p>Since 1&#x2F;10 Austria and Germany are not in the same energy zone anymore, the pricing zone was split up. This was done because too much renewable power feeding in at near zero cost in Germany was flooding the markets and pushing too much strain on the grid. Heavily needed power lines weren&#x27;t built because people were protesting.<p>So the first week has passed were the zones are actually split up and we can see that energy prices are way higher in Austria than in Germany, see [1]. Sure, a more definite answer would need to look at a longer time span. The highest difference actually was on 3&#x2F;10, where baseload in Germany was 18.29 €&#x2F;MWh compared to 60.40€&#x2F;MWh. And peakload on 3&#x2F;10 was 17.13 €&#x2F;MWh in Germany compared to 65.83 €&#x2F;Mwh in Austria. Solar generation on 3&#x2F;10 in Germany was 12.5 GW!<p>So far good for Germany, since they anyway subsidize solar and wind heavily and now have the low prices more or less for them self (not totally because cross border capacities, [4])<p>I haven&#x27;t looked so far in the costs of the auxiliary energy, really curious how they develop. Germany has in total probably around 385 MW in battery storage already [3] and lots of battery storage projected for 2019.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.epexspot.com&#x2F;en&#x2F;market-data&#x2F;dayaheadauction" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.epexspot.com&#x2F;en&#x2F;market-data&#x2F;dayaheadauction</a> [2] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.eex-transparency.com&#x2F;homepage&#x2F;power&#x2F;germany&#x2F;production&#x2F;usage&#x2F;solar-wind-power-production" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.eex-transparency.com&#x2F;homepage&#x2F;power&#x2F;germany&#x2F;prod...</a> [3] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.powerengineeringint.com&#x2F;articles&#x2F;2018&#x2F;03&#x2F;battery-storage-enters-growth-phase-in-germany.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.powerengineeringint.com&#x2F;articles&#x2F;2018&#x2F;03&#x2F;battery...</a> [4] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.entsoe.eu&#x2F;data&#x2F;map&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.entsoe.eu&#x2F;data&#x2F;map&#x2F;</a>
评论 #18162309 未加载
carwyn超过 6 年前
This pump storage facility has been running in North Wales since 1984:<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;electricmountain.co.uk&#x2F;Dinorwig-Power-Station" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;electricmountain.co.uk&#x2F;Dinorwig-Power-Station</a><p>It has three main roles on the national grid:<p>1. Near instant response for peak demand fluctuations (e.g. half time during major sports events). 2. Bootstrapping generator for rebooting the national grid should we ever need to. 3. Grid frequency regulation (keeping that AC at 50Hz)<p>There are a number of projects in progress to look at consumer side Demand Side Regulation (DSR) to provide the latter two grid services without having to carve out mountains or build massive battery farm like Tesla.
评论 #18160942 未加载
scott_ci超过 6 年前
Pumped storage analysis: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;dothemath.ucsd.edu&#x2F;2011&#x2F;11&#x2F;pump-up-the-storage&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;dothemath.ucsd.edu&#x2F;2011&#x2F;11&#x2F;pump-up-the-storage&#x2F;</a><p>spoiler: not remotely possible to scale large enough for total world needs.<p>&quot;If we drained one meter from every upper lake, we would get 54 billion kWh of energy: about a sixth of the target capacity. If performed over seven days, the flow would be 375,000 cubic meters per second, or 125 times the normal flow over the falls.&quot;<p>&quot;We would need 10,000 Raccoon Mountains to meet my baseline energy capacity&quot;
评论 #18161047 未加载
评论 #18160757 未加载
评论 #18161477 未加载
评论 #18161870 未加载
OliverJones超过 6 年前
The interesting thing here is the hint about double taxation; apparently this pumped storage facility pays fee when it ingests mWh to store, and again when it releases them for use. According to the article, that scares away investment in upgrading the facility.<p>The Bloomergites certainly have the chops to unravel and explain this corner of utility economics. Wish they&#x27;d do it! The smart-grid future holds all kinds of energy flows into and out of storage. Storage can be characterized in a bunch of ways.<p>* Total energy capacity (mWh)<p>* Peak discharge rate (mW)<p>* Rampup time for discharge. Rampup is most of the content of this article. The 100mW Tesla-built Hornsdale Power Reserve in South Australia has a subsecond rampup time, which makes its energy very valuable for short periods of time.<p>* Local efficiency (mWh discharged &#x2F; mWh ingested)<p>* System efficiency (mWh at source &#x2F; mWh at sink, counting transmission loss. The lines up to a mountain dam and back down have losses).<p>* Money efficiency. Taxes, fees, etc.<p>* Peak ingestion rate (mW)<p>* Rampup time for ingestion<p>* Capital cost (please include externalities like decommissioning and disposal costs)<p>* Expected lifetime (pump storage lifetime is very long)<p>* Operating cost<p>The future smart grid needs a finely tuned balance of capacity, rate, and rampup time to succeed.
walrus01超过 6 年前
Pumped storage is a great idea for places where the topography will work with it. But it&#x27;s expensive to build new. The multi-hundred-million dollar costs of building a new pumped storage facility might be compared to the new costs of building a massive gridscale battery (what Tesla did in South Australia). I&#x27;m hopeful that liquid metal&#x2F;flow batteries designed for grid scale sized applications will become economical in a $&#x2F;kWh stored rate. There&#x27;s a lot of applications for batteries which are too big&#x2F;bulky&#x2F;dangerous&#x2F;hot for domestic use or vehicle use, but are perfectly suited for deployment in an electrical grid application.<p>Electrical grid operators are already really experienced with the process of building substations, basically get a square or rectangular plot of land, level it, put down concrete pads for transformers and switch gear, cover the rest of it in gravel, erect fence with barbed wire around the perimeter. Now do the same but add more concrete pads for big, 20&#x27;&#x2F;40&#x27; container sized batteries.
评论 #18165276 未加载
StreakyCobra超过 6 年前
For the curious there is an ongoing construction of such pumped-storage in the canton of Valais in Switzerland. It is called Nant de Drance [1] and is located at the Emosson Dam, between the &quot;Emosson Lake&quot; and &quot;Old Emosson Lake&quot;.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Nant_de_Drance_Hydropower_Plant" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Nant_de_Drance_Hydropower_Plan...</a>
评论 #18160542 未加载
delbel超过 6 年前
This is really interesting. I spent last night calculating a small solar setup for my property. I have 4x220w panels, 4x100amp deep cycles, and a few inverters: one 1000w, and another 600w. And a 20 amp solar charge controller. Basically the most minimal setup.<p>I was trying to figure out how to design a system that, given 4 hours of full sunlight at the maximum output of the solar charger (300w) or 4 * 300 w = 1200w total daily charging of my deep cycles. If the system is 100% efficient (it isn&#x27;t), this gives me 50w a hour over a 24 hour period. 1200w &#x2F; 24 hr = 50w. But my solar panels exceed the ability of the charge controller. How can I use that to my advantage? I have a well and a holding tank. I was trying to figure out a circuit, perhaps an Arduino program&#x2F;circuit, with voltage&#x2F;amp sensors and relays to do this: If there is enough sun, charge the battery. If the batteries are full, turn on the well pump into the holding tank (there&#x27;s a pressure switch to turn it off when the tank is full). And put the holding tank up on the hill -- which should give me 25-30psi (up 45-50ft). Then I was trying to figure out how to optimize my well pump, or use a DC motor. I might look into salvaging a 2hp DC motor from a treadmill and retrofit it onto a pump housing. Anyway I am trying to optimize for extreme budget. 50w an hour isn&#x27;t a lot, but it is enough to run a few light bulbs and my tiny refrigerator. I might be able to run a RPi and charge some 18650 batteries for flashlights.
评论 #18161573 未加载
eaguyhn超过 6 年前
A similar example - San Luis Reservoir in California consists entirely of pumped water. Its main purpose is to act as a regulator supply for the state&#x27;s aqueduct, but to offset costs the operators do the same trick of generating electricity during the day, and replenishing the reservoir at night.<p>There are times when this is not practical, but when it is it helps to defray operating costs.
downandout超过 6 年前
I am curious how much of an effect evaporation has on the efficiency of these systems. You spend energy pumping the water uphill, then it literally vanishes and that energy is wasted. I would imagine that in a hot climate like the one Hoover Dam is in, evaporation would be a non-trivial issue should they go through with the retrofit.
评论 #18163036 未加载
评论 #18162423 未加载
评论 #18160509 未加载
评论 #18160763 未加载
dicroce超过 6 年前
I prefer this idea:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;qz.com&#x2F;1355672&#x2F;stacking-concrete-blocks-is-a-surprisingly-efficient-way-to-store-energy&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;qz.com&#x2F;1355672&#x2F;stacking-concrete-blocks-is-a-surpris...</a>
allannienhuis超过 6 年前
<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;List_of_pumped-storage_hydroelectric_power_stations" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;List_of_pumped-storage_hydroel...</a>
Pxtl超过 6 年前
The challenge with energy storage is the tradeoff between cost and efficiency. On the one end you have batteries that are hella efficient but expensive, and then you have a spectrum going Hydrogen -&gt; Pumped Energy -&gt; Compressed Air (cheapest and least efficient)<p>The question is whether we can build enough wind or solar power that doesn&#x27;t just meet our needs when it&#x27;s outputting well, but overshoots them by like 500% so we can use cheap and inefficient energy storage.
the_arun超过 6 年前
I guess enabling individual homes to generate&#x2F;store energy needed to run their home is more scalable than these so called huge beautiful batteries. But for now, they are good and buy time for innovations in home batteries.
评论 #18162312 未加载
评论 #18161404 未加载
emp超过 6 年前
This scheme has been Running in South Africa since 1981: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.m.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Drakensberg_Pumped_Storage_Scheme" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.m.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Drakensberg_Pumped_Storage_S...</a><p>It’s interesting as it is a network of a few dams and rivers over a very large area.
NoNameHaveI超过 6 年前
Great idea. Only problem is, I live in Iowa. Wind energy abounds. Adequate topography does not.
larrydag超过 6 年前
Sounds like energy arbitrage using physics. I love the idea. I wonder what it will look like in a decade when its adopted more or will it go away when chemical battery storage is cheaper and renewable energy is more efficient.
评论 #18160784 未加载
jonahhorowitz超过 6 年前
There&#x27;s another one of these near Aspen, Colorado. The Mt. Elbert Pumped-Storage Powerplant. If you&#x27;re ever nearby, they give tours.
visarga超过 6 年前
Isn&#x27;t evaporation a problem? Lots of water could evaporate before it gets discharged.
solarkraft超过 6 年前
Okay, good feature, not new, though.
leowoo91超过 6 年前
Isnt that half of the energy wasted while pumping the water to the higher grounds?
评论 #18160280 未加载
评论 #18160293 未加载
评论 #18160278 未加载
评论 #18160772 未加载