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Why Chinese Is So Damn Hard (1992)

55 点作者 monsieurpng超过 6 年前

17 条评论

solidsnack9000超过 6 年前
<i>...one of the most gratifying experiences a foreign student of Chinese can have is to see a native speaker come up a complete blank when called upon to write the characters for some relatively common word. ... I have seen highly literate Chinese people forget how to write certain characters in common words like &quot;tin can&quot;, &quot;knee&quot;, &quot;screwdriver&quot;, &quot;snap&quot; (as in &quot;to snap one&#x27;s fingers&quot;), &quot;elbow&quot;, &quot;ginger&quot;, &quot;cushion&quot;, &quot;firecracker&quot;, and so on. And when I say &quot;forget&quot;, I mean that they often cannot even put the first stroke down on the paper. Can you imagine a well-educated native English speaker totally forgetting how to write a word like &quot;knee&quot; or &quot;tin can&quot;? ... ...often even the most well-educated Chinese have no recourse but to throw up their hands and ask someone else in the room how to write some particularly elusive character.</i><p>It was related to me by a Chinese colleague that some young people in China mostly use Pinyin and can barely write any characters, since cellphones take care of turning the Pinyin into characters.
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emtel超过 6 年前
On the topic of learning to remember characters - Japanese students attempting to learn kanji (very close to traditional chinese characters) often use a book called &quot;Remembering the Kanji&quot; by James Heisig. The method devised by the author for learning the characters is truly ingenious.<p>He developed this method after moving to japan in the early 80s for a position at a research institute. In a few months, he developed and applied his method to learn english meanings (but not japanese readings) for all ~2000 standard-use kanji. When his colleagues asked him what he&#x27;d been spending all his time on, and he told them that he&#x27;d finished learning all the kanji, they didn&#x27;t believe him. Not because they didn&#x27;t believe he&#x27;d done it so quickly, but because they had never seen any foreigner ever learn more than a few hundred. After demonstrating to their satisfaction that he&#x27;d really managed to do it, he was told &quot;go write a book about how you did it&quot;.<p>I&#x27;ve been working my way through RTK (with the help of anki) for several months now. The method really does work. I&#x27;m at about 1500 out of 2200. It&#x27;s getting harder the further I get, but all told I don&#x27;t think I&#x27;ve spent more than a hundred hours or so over the course of 4 months.<p>For chinese learners, he&#x27;s produced books on remembering Hanzi, simplified and traditional. I think if Moser had had access to these books, he might have been a bit less despondent about the task of learning the characters.
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laurent123456超过 6 年前
In China it&#x27;s also hard to speak with Chinese people because many of them aren&#x27;t used to communicate with foreigners. If I speak in French with a non-French speaker, and they don&#x27;t understand, I&#x27;ll try to use different words, or I&#x27;ll say the sentence more slowly.<p>In China, not really - if you don&#x27;t understand, often they&#x27;ll repeat the exact same thing, the exact same way, and again and again. You can end up in a deadlock as they won&#x27;t try to use simpler words or speak more slowly. Chinese people know that their language is hard, but I don&#x27;t think all of them realise just how hard it is for foreigners.<p>Of course as he mentioned in the article, when it&#x27;s your turn to speak, even if you know how to say what you want to say, if you don&#x27;t have all the tones exactly right, you won&#x27;t make sense to the other person either.
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chillacy超过 6 年前
Not this again! David Mozer’s article has been posted to death here and debated to all end. It’s mostly correct but deeply sensationalized to the point where I believe it’s more damaging than useful for those who haven’t studied character based languages.
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hannob超过 6 年前
I tried to learn Chinese for a while. I wouldn&#x27;t say it&#x27;s exceptionally hard. I mean learning any foreign language is always hard and involves a lot of learning, which is why I eventually gave up, because I had no real practical use out of it and couldn&#x27;t motivate myself to put regular work into it.<p>Sure, the characters are hard to remember. It&#x27;s completely different from European languages, so you have no &quot;ah that almost sounds like a word I know in my language&quot;. Pronunciation is unusual, but isn&#x27;t harder than - let&#x27;s say - French. The sentence structure and grammar is relatively simple.
tiisetso超过 6 年前
I attended two semesters of mandarin lessons(4 hours, mon - fri, of lessons with short breaks) at a university in Beijing. Started from essentially nothing; recognising 20-30 characters (Hanzi), 9 of which were numbers. I still haven&#x27;t taken any HSK (Chinese language competency test) exams but looking at example papers and study material I&#x27;m above HSK 3 but I wouldn&#x27;t pass HSK 4 without a month dedicated review.<p>However, near the end I had learned enough to through the first few minutes of most conversations with not just ease but joy. I can text in Chinese for most everyday conversations, can&#x27;t read a newspaper pretty much at all, poems are impossible even the ones that look deceptively simple by Li Bai, but I can follow all spoken words by Mandarin speaking characters in movies produced in the West.<p>My two cents is this. Anyone can learn Chinese. But it takes time and effort. Really, you have to persist for while before breakthroughs happen. I couldn&#x27;t differentiate between tones for the first few months unless a native speaker spoke one syllable at a time very slowly. Now I can pick out tones at normal speed. However, still doesn&#x27;t mean I understand.<p>A Japanese friend I made in my first semester found the characters easy but pronunciation was still very tough for him. But having one less obstacle is important. I can know also watch anime and recognise plenty of characters (Kanji) in the backgrounds but this is still eons from knowing Japanese.<p>If you want to learn, adopt a growth mindset and don&#x27;t give up. Like most things you read on the internet, they are neither as hard as everyone says (you can learn to read, write, listen, and speak Chinese) nor as easy (actually the grammar is far from simple. 了 (le) alone causes headaches. And let&#x27;s not forget all the references to 4000+ years of Chinese history expressed in everyday idioms (成语) and so on).<p>If you want to learn, go to China if you can and try. That year was the most difficult and rewarding (Do they always come in pairs?) of my short life thus far.
iliaznk超过 6 年前
I haven&#x27;t tried to learn Chinese myself, but a friend of mine who has and quite successfully so told me that Chinese is surprisingly simple and easy to learn. The hardest things in it are, of course, hieroglyphs and pronunciation, but the grammar is relatively simple.
xster超过 6 年前
Besides the fact that the article is just the author opining his distaste without applying an equal amount rationalization to any distaste for familiar European languages.<p>In fact, Mandarin, like English, Riau Indonesian, Swahili, are among very few languages that linguists identify as being unusually exoteric and easy because they&#x27;re so repeatedly worn down by foreign adults who, due to various uncommon historical circumstances, had to learn the language imperfectly in their adulthood, reverse assimilated in the language&#x27;s native location and had offsprings who were only exposed to a simplified version of the language and who still influenced future generations because their foreign parents were in the control class of society.<p>The author holds some 19th century views on languages and assumes that languages have some logical design whereas all languages arbitrarily grammaticalize and accumulate cruft over time. Some languages are indeed harder than others, but not because languages had more logical features than others, but just because the natural accumulation of gunk did not take place (pidgins, creoles) or were unnaturally reversed (conquests and reverse assimilation by adults).<p>For actual hard languages, one has to look at esoteric languages where the continual grammaticalization process did not stop like Tsez or Navajo.
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dang超过 6 年前
Discussed in 2014: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=7622432" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=7622432</a>
cribbles超过 6 年前
A couple of accounts vouching for the comparative simplicity of spoken Chinese:<p>Language Log (2014): [1] &quot;Chinese is the easiest language I ever learned to speak, but the writing system is by far the hardest I&#x27;ve ever had to grapple with.&quot;<p>Idlewords (2011) [2]: &quot;Don&#x27;t fall for the bait and switch with Chinese or Japanese! They might tempt you with an exotic writing system, but after a few months you find out that the underlying language is pretty vanilla, and meanwhile there is a stack of three thousand flash cards standing in between you and the ability to skim a newspaper.&quot;<p>[1] <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu&#x2F;nll&#x2F;?p=11109" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu&#x2F;nll&#x2F;?p=11109</a><p>[2] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;idlewords.com&#x2F;2011&#x2F;08&#x2F;why_arabic_is_terrific.htm" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;idlewords.com&#x2F;2011&#x2F;08&#x2F;why_arabic_is_terrific.htm</a>
jmchuster超过 6 年前
I&#x27;ve always liked this summary I found on a forum:<p>&gt; In case you were wondering - western languages to other western languages take about 22 weeks (550 hours of intensive study), non-western&#x2F;non-asian languages 44 weeks (1100 hours of intensive study) and asian languages 88 weeks (2200 hours of intensive study). The other benefit of learning a language in one of the other two language families is that if you decide to learn another language in the same language family (region 1 2 or 3 as described above) it takes only 22 weeks of study.<p>[1] <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;yesjapan.com&#x2F;YJ6&#x2F;question&#x2F;1394&#x2F;how-many-kanji-does-one-have-to-know" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;yesjapan.com&#x2F;YJ6&#x2F;question&#x2F;1394&#x2F;how-many-kanji-does-on...</a>
sifoobar超过 6 年前
I practiced Chinese once a week for two years, unfortunately never got a chance to use it since so it&#x27;s been aging badly. The thing that many seem to have issues with when it comes to speaking&#x2F;understanding Chinese is that the tone carries more meaning than in western languages. In Chinese; the same word has several, often completely unrelated, meanings; all depending on intonation. It&#x27;s a new level of awareness, like learning a new programming paradigm.
solidsnack9000超过 6 年前
<i>One could say that Chinese is phonetic in the way that sex is aerobic: technically so, but in practical use not the most salient thing about it.</i><p>This is such a tired and coarse idiom of American scholarly writers. The other one is mentioning guns for no reason.
askaboutit超过 6 年前
Chinese is a great language until you realise without someone constantly telling you what each character is. You’re never going to understand. The tones and characters need to go the way of the dodo before I take more interest.
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svilen_dobrev超过 6 年前
any language is hard, when you (essentially) want to convert everyone&#x2F;everything into your believes&#x2F;culture&#x2F;set-of-understandings&#x2F;instructions. Instead of humbly accept and admit that there exist things which u have no idea about, and eventualy try to learn about them, if ever possible. (And by no idea, i mean no concept about. Language&#x2F;culture are ying-and-yan, if u don&#x27;t know&#x2F;distinguish what yellow color is, there&#x27;s only little to be done).
baybal2超过 6 年前
Chinese is not hard. I managed to get to basic conversational level in three&#x2F;four months.
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lbj超过 6 年前
I&#x27;m fully cured of any desire to seriously study Chinese.
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