Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

I am surprised that no-one has brought up a neutrality argument yet.<p>The app is legal within Saudi Arabia and in fact published by their government.<p>Are we to take down any app which violates anyone’s morals? Or just the morals of particular countries? If an app is blasphemous by the standards of say Mormonism or Islam, should we take it down? After everyone is done, how many apps will be left?<p>If we enforce some morals and not others in our app stores, who exactly do we choose as the arbiters of morality? U.S. public opinion? Chinese public opinion? Maybe the U.N?<p>Just to be clear I’d prefer this app not exist, and I would not be unhappy if it gets “unpublished”. I also think it would be cool if the major platforms just came out and made an unambiguous statement on what they will and won’t stand for.

This topic (and the associated app) has been getting a lot of press in Australia recently, due to recent cases of Australian customs refusing to acknowledge asylum claims from Saudi women who have made it to Australia and sending them back to an uncertain fate in Saudi Arabia. Also tactics like Australian officials intercepting fleeing women at transit points (such as Hong Kong) and turning them over to Saudi authorities. See the first link below.<p>Background on the methods used to control women in Saudi Arabia:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.abc.net.au&#x2F;news&#x2F;2019-02-04&#x2F;escape-from-saudi-the-women-who-made-it-and-the-ones-who-dont&#x2F;10763324" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.abc.net.au&#x2F;news&#x2F;2019-02-04&#x2F;escape-from-saudi-the...</a><p>&quot;Escape From Saudi&quot;, a 4corners report on the same:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.abc.net.au&#x2F;4corners&#x2F;escape-from-saudi&#x2F;10778838" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.abc.net.au&#x2F;4corners&#x2F;escape-from-saudi&#x2F;10778838</a>

thatoneyouthrow got flagged for commenting on the hypocrisy of the tech Elite for their support of a government in Saudi Arabia that kills journalists and oppresses females with no apologies - that funds radical Islam throughout the world - in the comments of an article discussing Apple and Google distributing government oppression apps on their stores.<p>It is odd. The keep from being too meta, I pose this question (since it seems like a controversial stance): Should Google and Apple formally decline to host applications in their stores that actively assist governments in oppressing their population? This isn&#x27;t a philosophical discussion about how we are already tracked by phones, or how Facebook knows everything. This app literally is built by the government to check women in, so they do not have freedom of travel.

They let you download the app... but they do NOT host the service. That&#x27;s run by the Ministry of Interior.<p>EDIT: I had a paragraph below this saying the laws were really the problem and would still exist without the app.. but I forgot one key point: how easy it was to subvert the system before the app existed. I&#x27;ve removed that section. I fully support removing the app from the app stores and forcing SA to go back to the old system.

I don’t agree with the kingdom of Saudi Arabia’s stances, but I also feel like keeping a list of each state that violates human rights is not in Tim Cook’s or Sundar Pichai’s job description. If we are just being honest with ourselves the list of countries in which you can do business approaches 0 if we call out the violators. Secondly, the last time I checked a company’s mandate is to abide by the laws of the country in which it conducts business and to make a profit for shareholders. I’m all for exceeding this goal, but it should not be incumbent upon a company to follow the geopolitical climate and react.

Saudi Arabia needs to be shunned by the rest of the world for all its barbaric practices. Truly an awful government with repugnant laws.

Its alarming how these increasingly powerful and consolidated silicon valley groups preach progressive morality but practice regressive totalitarianism.

Is this qualitatively different from providing wiretapping interfaces to law enforcement in countries which have laws we find morally objectionable?

The service is run by KSA. If google removes the app, they can still offer it through a website , or SMS. I don&#x27;t see why they wouldn&#x27;t ban it , considering they have banned far more innocuous stuff.

Here is the Saudi abasher web-app hosted on the interior ministry. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.moi.gov.sa&#x2F;wps&#x2F;portal&#x2F;Home&#x2F;Home&#x2F;!ut&#x2F;p&#x2F;z1&#x2F;04_iUlDgAgP9CCATyEEmKOboR-UllmWmJ5Zk5ucl5uhH6EdGmcVbBro7e3iYGHm7GzqaGTh6mhv5G3iaGrp7Gul76UfhVxCcmqdfkB2oCABPX762&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.moi.gov.sa&#x2F;wps&#x2F;portal&#x2F;Home&#x2F;Home&#x2F;!ut&#x2F;p&#x2F;z1&#x2F;04_iUlD...</a><p>Feel free to hack this website. Because this kind of behavior is not acceptable, this is a literal totalitarian nightmare.

Yes, the app is ridiculous. No, tech companies don&#x27;t need to become morality police for the world. Perhaps removing scams and malware should remain the bar for policing apps.

I&#x27;ve heard of women escaping SA by getting ahold of their guardian&#x27;s phone, approving travel, then getting through the airport with that approval.<p>If this app is banned, we&#x27;d be closing off at least one escape route that has been known to work.

Its hard for Google to point to some TOS violation when roughly half the app ecosystem revolves around tracking people in order to manipulate their behaviour (ads, gambling, etc). Their app is doing what most mobile apps are designed to do. Its just more successful than usual since the creator is a nation state.

There&#x27;s a lot of discussion here, but I don&#x27;t see the important question being asked:<p>How (and whether) the removal of this app will help the women in Saudi Arabia:<p>1)In the short term<p>2)In the long term<p>I.e. if the alternative to using the tracking app is not being able to travel (in the realities of that horrible state), then removal will make life of many women <i>worse</i> in the short term.<p>Calls for bans and removals are the easiest form of moralizing without addressing the actual problem in any way.<p>The same kind of logic brought us FOSTA&#x2F;SESTA, which few people here are happy about. Let&#x27;s not fall into the same trap.

Disgusting... Take down the app right away.

What happens if a woman goes to passport control without the app? Is she allowed to pass through?

I can’t believe that Lyft doesn’t cover the Bay Area with billboards that say “Saudi Arabia beats women and owns 10% of Uber.”<p>“Saudi Arabia murders gay people and owns 10% of Uber.”<p>“Saudi Arabia crucified two people last year and owns 10% of Uber.”

What the fuck is going on in this thread? It seems that either numerous pro-SA trolls are hard at work, or SV liberals are suddenly just fine with women being kept on digital leashes and treated as property?

&quot;Apple and Google accused of hosting Saudi gov&#x27;t app that tracks women &quot; is a weird phrasing. It&#x27;s absolutely, 100% verifiably true they host it, as the article plainly states:<p>&gt;<i>Both Google Play and iTunes host Absher, a government web service that allows men to specify when and how women can cross Saudi borders, and to get close to real-time SMS updates when they travel.</i>

I&#x27;m loosing touch here, why is this not a manufactured controversy and instead an actual complaint that has any merit?<p>Why aren&#x27;t we &quot;accusing&quot; ISPs from routing to the website?<p>&quot;Accusing&quot; wayback machine of caching it?<p>&quot;Accusing&quot; CDNs of not null-routing it?<p>so this article gets to masquerade Apple and Google&#x27;s power consolidation as a good thing and you guys eat it up? I&#x27;m going to call my publicist and start my own word games if this is so effective.

A pragmatic view:<p>70% of the mobile devices in Saudi Arabia run Android.<p>Outcome 1- Apple bans Absher but Google does not. Absher usage continues. Android gains market share over time.<p>Outcome 2- Apple and Google both ban Absher. Android users install it via sideload from the government website. Carriers preload the sideloaded Absher app onto new phones. Absher usage continues. Android market share grows over time.<p>I don&#x27;t see a victory here other than taking a moral stance.

The precedent has already been set (e.g. Infowars) that hosting an app on your platform is an endorsement of the content and the publisher of the app.

It&#x27;s interestinghow comments like this are downvoted. But then, YCombinator has an interest in keeping Saudi Arabia happy.