Toyotas and Chevys Are Holding Up Better Than Most Luxury Brands

This article seems to be written using results from a J.D. Power report. J.D. Power&#x27;s methodology is commonly known to be extremely flawed in that they weigh all &quot;issues&quot; equally. So an engine failure is the same severity as Bluetooth not connecting.<p>Furthermore, tiebreakers are broken in pretty nonsense ways, and many suspect it&#x27;s by whoever pays the most. For example, they crowned Buick the most dependable brand, but by their own ratings, both Lexus and Porsche scored higher.<p>If you rank by only mechanical dependability by their own numbers, the ranking is as follows (alphabetical w&#x2F;in tiers):<p>10: Lexus, Toyota<p>9: BMW, Buick, Chevrolet, Hyundai, Infiniti, Kia, Lincoln, Mazda, Mercedes, Nissan, Porsche<p>8: Audi, Ford, Honda, Jaguar, Mini, Subaru, Volkswagen, Volvo<p>7: Acura, Cadillac, Dodge, Fiat, GMC, Mitsubishi, Ram<p>5: Chrysler, Jeep, Land Rover.<p>So the old adage still holds true for mechanical reliability, Japanese &gt; German&#x2F;European &gt; American&#x2F;British.<p>Also, the luxury brand of an automaker falls pretty damn close to where the non-luxury brand lands: Lexus&#x2F;Toyota, Buick&#x2F;Chevy, Hyundai&#x2F;Kia, Infiniti&#x2F;Nissan, Audi&#x2F;Volkswagen, Cadillac&#x2F;GMC, Fiat&#x2F;Dodge&#x2F;Ram, Chrysler&#x2F;Jeep. Which would make sense since they share mechanical parts, but not infotainment&#x2F;luxury features. When infotainment&#x2F;luxury features are factored into the dependability score, it leads to the conclusion the article is trying to draw.

As electric vehicles mature and increase their share of the consumer market, it will be interesting to see how these sorts of reliability measurements change to maintain relevance. Already today, a luxury EV is probably more mechanically reliable than a mass market ICE car.<p>Electric batteries and drivetrains have their differences in reliability for sure (IIUC, the 1st generation Nissan Leaf lacked a battery temp management system). However the difference between the reliability of EVs isn&#x27;t likely to be that big since EVs are much simpler machines.<p>A lot of the complexity that provides the luxury ICE driving experience (smooth, quiet drivetrain, strong acceleration) comes for &quot;free&quot; in an EV, even in mass market models. With that complexity gone, there&#x27;s much less to differentiate cars from a reliability perspective.

This comment seems wrong to me:<p><pre><code> There is no inherent reason why a more-expensive car should be better or worse in terms of reliability than a less-expensive car, so my guess is they’ll track each other fairly closely going forward. </code></pre> If the metric is per <i>car</i> faults, then surely more features mean more opportunities for defects, given an equal attention to quality across all features?

Still relevant: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theonion.com&#x2F;toyota-recalls-1993-camry-due-to-fact-that-owners-reall-1819577805" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theonion.com&#x2F;toyota-recalls-1993-camry-due-to-fa...</a>

Automotive EE here.<p>In the last 5-8 years there has been a DRAMATIC change in the way vehicles are tested and released. Everyone has become much more focused on electronic features - while at the same time almost everyone is completely outsourcing electronics design and firmware. Cars hit the lots with 10 new flashes waiting. When I started, it was a BIG DEAL if you had a lot held up somewhere in Detroit because of a pending flash.<p>I&#x27;ve worked with two of the big three, and right now, neither own their traction control, radio, trans, body, ignition, steering, etc controllers. Basically anything. Even engines are being outsourced. I don&#x27;t just mean the module, but the code on it. One of the mfgs, their engineers can&#x27;t even SEE radio code or anything much more than general documents. They used to have compiler access to most things, now it&#x27;s extremely rare.<p>The mfgs wanted to outsource the development, and now when they need an adjustment to traction control it&#x27;s a $50, 100, 250, 500,000 charge, BUT, they&#x27;ve also moved the responsibility to the mfgs like Bosch, ConTevis, etc.<p>Short version is everyone is playing the game to get hot new electronics in cars, to make them seem as advanced as phones - but the work is not being put in besides surface level customer view. I&#x27;ve found obvious glitches in zero mile vehicles this year, but none I can think of from 2000-2013<p>I would not purchase a 2019 anything right now. I&#x27;d allow for two-three years worth of flashes before considering a new car. And that doesn&#x27;t mean you&#x27;re &quot;safe&quot; with your old car. You think your 2001 Subaru Outback is going strong? Well, surprise, you&#x27;re likely to fall victim to a different issue.<p>As to the article, yes, luxury cars are worse. Most people that don&#x27;t realize you can&#x27;t leave your touring Ferarri in the garage not hooked up to a trickle charger, or also picking on Ferarri that the LaFerarri when runs battery dead may require to be loaded on a truck and shipped to a dealer before it&#x27;ll charge again, or that the new Range Rovers will attempt to void your battery and electronics warranty if they find a radar&#x2F;laser detector hooked up because THAT is how finicky the electronics system is.<p>It&#x27;s funny to me the amount of work that your average Toyota or Chevy vehicle gets relative to lux models that skirt by with less engineering and more features.<p>As to Cadillac and Lexus, those are just GM and Toyota, all the same things plus some. So fundamentally they&#x27;re the same, but yes, add features add problem areas.

I&#x27;ve always shied away from luxury brands because repairs are so expensive. Little things like a switch, or a seat lever, or even trying to replace the middle console lid because your kid scratched it up, is always more expensive when its a luxury brand. Just because it comes from BMW doesn&#x27;t mean it should automatically be more expensive.

I bought a plain, no turbo Volvo 940 for $1000 ten years ago. It&#x27;s 25 years old now, and still is very reliable. Newer Volvos seem a lot more complex, and I can&#x27;t help thinking that there&#x27;s a lot more electronics and mechanisms that can break than in the old construction. Edit: ugh, I just realised I have become a grumpy old man.

A few words about J.D. Power:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=zKN5Wl4uTyY" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=zKN5Wl4uTyY</a>

I think one thing to remember that people who buy a Toyota drive it like it&#x27;s... a Toyota. Cars that are driven hard will break down faster than cars that aren&#x27;t, and I&#x27;m guessing the average BMW is pushed harder than the average Toyota. My wife can put a hole in a pair of nice running shoes faster than I can even wear tread off of a junky pair. Use matters, not all miles are equal.

The people that buy luxury cars don&#x27;t care. It&#x27;ll be under warranty during this time and the dealer will offer a free loaner car while it is being repaired. Most of these cars are leased and the ones that aren&#x27;t will likely be sold around the 3 year mark. There isn&#x27;t much incentive for the manufacturers to make them reliable unlike with mass market cars.

&quot;Luxury Brands&quot; is a vague concept. Maserati, MB S Class, Cadillac Escalade, BMW 7 Series are all luxuru vehicles but aren&#x27;t supposed to hold up well. They are expensive luxury toys, and cant be used as work horses like Lexuses or Acuras are.

I don’t think the survey takes into account the differing expectations of the buyers of the different brands. Someone buying a Mercedes has different expectations than someone buying a Corola and this would strongly influence issue numbers.

The title here, the title in the actual article, and the content of the article aren&#x27;t telling the same story.<p>Here: &quot;Toyotas and Chevys Are Holding Up Better Than Most Luxury Brands&quot;<p>Article: &quot;Toyotas and Chevys Are More Reliable Than BMW and Mercedes, J.D. Power Finds&quot;<p>Article content (paraphrasing): &quot;Lexus, Porsche top the list&quot; &quot;Most German manufacturers lag behind US&quot;<p>So which is it? Bloomberg doesn&#x27;t appear to be trying too hard here.

This is always true, the mass produced thing is going to have manufacturing lines that are tuned. And Toyota or Chevy can&#x27;t afford to have a recall on something they made 100k of . Bespoke luxury vehicles are nearly hand made, with all the errors that hand building entails.<p>Wear a timex, drive a toyota, compute with a thinkpad, listen to a yamaha and process with a cuisanart.

I&#x27;ve driven a number of older Toyotas and (fingers crossed) that seems to be my experience.

God bless my Mazda 3 2012.<p>I spent a total of $1200(wipers, tires, engine oil) in 100k miles and still gives me 39 mpg on highways.<p>Love the car. My next Car is going to be either Japanese or a Korean.

Most people I know that have German usually have electronic&#x2F;electrical issues. The actual drivetrains are good but the electrical systems have a lot of issues.

Assessing &quot;reliability&quot; between brands is very hard (and a lost cause IMO) because there&#x27;s tons of things that have a large effect but are hard to measure and quantify.<p>Reliability variation between models &gt; reliability variation between brands. Generally speaking cheap disposable appliance cars are cheap and disposable. OEMs put much more effort into their flagship products and the products that define their brand image.<p>Owner demographics have a large effect on reliability over the kind of 5+yr timeline many commenters here seem to be talking in. The wealthier the owner the better the vehicle is treated (at a statistical level, we all know one or two rich guys who never change their oil). Rich people years vs poor people years is like highway miles vs city miles. As vehicles get older they get cheaper they move down the economic ladder which tends to complicate things a little. In states with road salt wealthier people are much more likely to keep their vehicles in garages or wash them regularly.<p>When it comes to vehicles &gt;8yo (or whatever the oldest banks will write a loan for at present) you see on the road is not necessarily what&#x27;s reliable or what&#x27;s popular. The dealership auction system tends to siphon off vehicles over a certain age and&#x2F;or under a certain value to the South American (from North America) and African&#x2F;Middle Eastern (from Europe) markets. This means that vehicles owned by the demographics that tend to trade in regularly (wealthier on average) will not stick around as well as the vehicles owned by people who don&#x27;t or who tend to buy&#x2F;sell private party (less wealthy on average). So the old vehicle you see driving around are not necessarily a 1:1 representation of what was or wasn&#x27;t reliable or what was or wasn&#x27;t popular back in the year they were sold. Different demographics keep vehicles for different amounts of time. People tend to get new vehicles at life milestones younger people are moving up in the world commuting, starting families and this prompts them to change vehicle more often. Grandpa bought a &#x27;Vic in &#x27;94 and has been driving it since.<p>Replacement cost greatly effects a how long a vehicle is kept in service. Replacing a compact SUV is cheap compared to a 1-ton truck so at any point in time the owner of the big truck is much more likely to fix any problem that comes up rather than go looking for a replacement. Look at the 90s Fords you still see around. Ford sold a TON of Explorers yet 1st and 2nd gen Explorers are a rarity on the roads compared to F-series.<p>Also, just because you never see a particular make&#x2F;model where you live doesn&#x27;t mean they don&#x27;t exist in large numbers elsewhere.<p>There&#x27;s probably a few things I&#x27;m forgetting but people would do well to keep in mind all the things that aren&#x27;t being controlled for when they read about vehicle &quot;reliability&quot;.

Lexus came in #1 followed by Porsche but that didn&#x27;t make for as good of a headline I guess.

Isn&#x27;t this well known? Toyotas have legendary reliability

this is common knowledge among farmers here.

A Cadillac is not just an expensive car, it is an expensive car to own. (Gas, repair bills, etc.)<p>If you are a W-2 worker you have to be at work at a certain time and you need a car that can start every morning so you can get to work on time.<p>Higher class people can afford multiple cars, take time off from work, take a cab, etc.<p>The Cadillac brand is appealing to many lower class Americans so you often see them in &quot;bad&quot; neighborhoods. Some would say the people there are not in a hurry to get anywhere.