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We Need Chrome No More

1011 点作者 kaishin超过 6 年前

87 条评论

mapgrep超过 6 年前
I enjoyed this post, but I take issue with the idea that Chrome was initially adopted, or served, &quot;to break the Web free from corporate greed.&quot; Chrome&#x27;s appeal was primarily technical. Each tab got its own process and could crash without taking down the entire browser. No one else had this at the time, and it was a big deal because Flash was still widespread so sites were even less stable than they are today.<p>Luckily, Firefox, arguably among the most &quot;free from corporate greed&quot; of the browsers, has now finally caught up to Chrome on stability and speed (in my experience), and is rapidly adding privacy and content blocking features and defaults that Chrome lacks. If it were still behind Chrome technically, as it was in 2008, it probably wouldn&#x27;t matter that Mozilla is more trustworthy than Google.
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dak1超过 6 年前
Other browsers need to catch up to Chrome with their development tools. I&#x27;d be happy to use Safari or Firefox for development, but...<p>- I can&#x27;t disable CORS in Firefox (yes, sometimes you have to disable CORS rather than modify the Allow-Origin header response, for example if you need to test against a production backend) (and, no, CORS Everywhere is not a sufficient solution).<p>- I can&#x27;t inspect WebSocket frames in anything except Chrome.<p>- Safari does not allow self-signed certs over WSS (and there&#x27;s no way to override it).<p>- Safari does not respect System-wide APC Config for Proxies.<p>There&#x27;s a handful of other issues. Both Safari and Firefox do do things well, and often better than Chrome. For example, Firefox tends to actually handle standards correctly, whereas Chrome tries to be overly forgiving. And Safari&#x27;s Develop and Debug menus are easily the best and quickest way to disable CORS or JavaScript, and examine service workers.<p>Unfortunately, some of the above issues are blockers.<p>I can test with Firefox on staging or in production, but not being able to test up front during development really impacts compatibility testing.<p>If another browser was as good or better for development, I&#x27;d be happy to use it.
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TheRealPomax超过 6 年前
The problem with these articles is that the recommendation always ends up just preaching to the choir: people who already switched away from Chrome nod in appreciation, but people who haven&#x27;t switched literally get nothing out of these posts to convince them to switch to what is basically the same application made by a different company, with completely different conventions on where everything is, without any concrete perceived benefits (security and tracking are invisible problems, you don&#x27;t sell someone on switching by saying they won&#x27;t have them anymore, no matter how important you think that is). And to boot, the switch would almost certainly make things worse because add-ons people relied on won&#x27;t work and now you&#x27;ve burdened them with having to find new and unfamiliar alternatives to what they were comfortable with.<p>Chrome&#x27;s main problem isn&#x27;t that it&#x27;s overstayed its welcome and is strangling the web (whatever you want that to mean), it&#x27;s that it&#x27;s so pervasive that people have become accustomed to it to such a degree that you&#x27;re now faced with needing to convince people to give up what they&#x27;re accustomed to. And that&#x27;s a _much_ harder sell. Using chrome needs to literally be a grating or even damaging experience before someone will voluntarily switch to a different browser.
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Shank超过 6 年前
I find posts like this kind of interesting. Chrome gained prominence because it had great performance improvements over the competition -- IE and Firefox. IE in particular was dog slow at all times, and Chrome ran everything at least as well and almost always better. Firefox didn&#x27;t have process isolation when Chrome came onto the scene, and that kind of knocked it for security and stability.<p>It&#x27;s not as if people switched just because it had Google branding. Everyone switched because it was quantifiably better. From benchmarks to design, Chrome was a winner, and has enjoyed its success.<p>Now, Chrome is doing things that could be seen as &quot;IE-like.&quot; Manifest v3 -- even with relaxed changes towards ad blocking -- will not necessarily enable uBlock Origin to continue exactly as it does today. The forced user system is another move in the direction of anti-consumer behavior.<p>I&#x27;ve tried to switch back to the competition. I&#x27;m using Firefox right now. Pages render faster and compact mode is great. But Handoff myseteriously doesn&#x27;t work on my Mac when it does with Chrome (added in Firefox 65). I had to enable U2F support with an about:config flag. I had to turn off the spell checker to fight mysterious input latency in average textboxes.<p>I&#x27;m reluctantly staying because I ultimately like what I see, but there&#x27;s an undeniable truth somewhere in here. It&#x27;s really hard for Firefox to match Chrome simply based on resources. Google can drop millions of dollars on a browser -- and few other companies can afford to do that. Certainly not Mozilla.
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jrochkind1超过 6 年前
In retrospect the practical shifting of web-standards-setting from an at least possibly neutral standards body representing multiple interests (W3C) to a a body wholly controlled by browser-vendors (WHATWG)... may have been good for speed of &quot;innovation&quot; for a time, but was in the long-term not good for the &quot;Web as an open platform.&quot;<p>&gt; Making matters worse, the blame often lands on other vendors for “holding back the Web”. The Web is Google’s turf as it stands now; you either do as they do, or you are called out for being a laggard.<p>Indeed, I think it&#x27;s the structural politics of WHATWG that make that hard to counter. WHATWG was almost founded on the principles of &quot;not being a laggard&quot; and &quot;doing what we [browser vendors] do&quot;. When there were several browser-vendors with roughly equal market power they could counter-balance each other, and had an interest in compatibility with each other, but when there&#x27;s an elephant in the room...<p>That is, the W3C folks that were accused of &quot;holding back the web&quot; while trying to keep standards-setting from going to WHATWG... were probably right.<p>You can disagree, but 10-15 years on, I think we&#x27;re overdue a larger discussion and retrospective evaluation of the consequences of the WHATWG &quot;coup&quot;. I haven&#x27;t seen much discussion of this, many developers today may not even be aware of the history.
dccoolgai超过 6 年前
Other than AMP, I can&#x27;t really think of a case that I would characterize as &quot;Google abusing its position&quot; w.r.t. Open Web. It was Chrome that led the push for PWAs, which I think is both great for the Open Web and consumers... The author complains about other vendors being &quot;called laggards&quot;, which - let&#x27;s be honest - we&#x27;re really talking about how long Apple&#x2F;Safari dragged their feet on Service Workers... and they _should_ be called out for that because it was an incredibly cynical thing to do to protect their walled App garden from the Open Web.
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c-smile超过 6 年前
The post is missing one simple point: the complexity of browser&#x27;s engine.<p>The complexity of current web client stack is comparable with the average OS. Any modern browser has all components of Android OS for example - internal file systems, threads, VM, virtual native code execution, independent windowing and graphics stack, message routing, etc.<p>That&#x27;s like situation with Windows and WINE. Yes, you may run some win progs on Wine but original Windows will always be better for them.<p>So we will have just one browser. That&#x27;s the reality, want we that or not.<p>Until either one of these:<p>1. The spec of Web Client will be reduced to bare minimum. With unified extensions mechanism, think about &lt;applet&gt; but more flexible - based on universal bytecode VM free from licensing issues.<p>2. Or users will pay for the browser application, instead of having it for free - giving up their private data instead of money. So browser vendors will be able and motivated to provide better, privacy first browsers.
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andrewla超过 6 年前
Here&#x27;s hoping. The proliferation of browser standards has made this appear a more daunting task as time has gone by. There was a point where if you built a good DOM, javascript engine, and a layout engine and had a reasonable ability to fetch resources, you could bootstrap a browser. That&#x27;s how Konquerer got there.<p>But now, I think we&#x27;re past that point -- if your browser can&#x27;t do native video conferencing and opengl and music apis and SVG animations and canvas support it might as well be a steaming turd.<p>I&#x27;d love to see someone try; to build a browser with third-party cookies excluded by design rather than policy (so that all off-domain fetches come from a blank &quot;incognito&quot; context), to build a React-style shadow DOM as the primary DOM and have the W3C DOM implemented as a polyfill, with client certificates integrated more naturally, completely killing the notion of allowing windows to open programmatically (I mean, how can pop-ups still be a problem? Any sane site is now using on-page popups if they need the UX), and some sort of model for integrating new web APIs and content handlers.<p>But combining all of that with a smooth and well-polished UI that works on multiple platforms is rapidly becoming something that only a large software corporation can pull off, and even there, mostly pull off badly. For now, I think Chrome is here to stay.
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ken超过 6 年前
&gt; Within two years, Chrome accounted for 15% of all Web traffic on desktop—for comparison, it took Firefox 6 years to get there. Google managed to deliver a fast, thoughtfully designed browser that was an instant hit among users and Web developers alike.<p>It took 2 years for IE to get 20% [1], and I wouldn&#x27;t describe IE 1-3 as &quot;fast and thoughtfully designed&quot;. I think the lesson here is simply that big tech companies with an established channel for reaching users can boost market share faster than open-source non-profit projects.<p>[1]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Internet_Explorer#&#x2F;media&#x2F;File:Internet-explorer-usage-data.svg" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Internet_Explorer#&#x2F;media&#x2F;File:...</a>
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ressetera超过 6 年前
It left a sour taste in my mouth that Microsoft joined Chrome instead of investing in FireFox and helping them advance their multi-process architecture quicker.
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carlosdp超过 6 年前
&gt; An ecosystem that doesn’t seem concerned with performance, user experience, privacy, or pushing computing forward.<p>What? Chrome was more performant that any browser at the time it was released and it&#x27;s still pretty good. It also became the gold standard for browser UX so much so that all other browsers copied a lot of it. Chrome also brought with it multi-process tabs and the V8 Javascript engine, how is that not &quot;pushing computing forward&quot;?
jarjoura超过 6 年前
This is such a fairytale retelling of history. Firefox was well on the way to crushing IE. It was the whole reason Microsoft re-kick started IE development again. Firefox was the dominant browser in 2008.<p>Safari was the browser pushing ahead on performance and being lightweight except in JavaScript. So Google took WebKit and added their own JS engine to it so that Gmail and their office suite could compete with Microsoft&#x27;s offerings.<p>It worked and all browsers started an arms race for JS performance.
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robbrown451超过 6 年前
I&#x27;d be thrilled to use another browser if they worked.<p>In my case, the feature that is missing from every other browser is MIDI access. I can plug a digital piano into my computer, and Chrome can talk to it. This is a standard, but the other browsers talk about it but never do anything, it&#x27;s been &quot;coming any day now&quot; in Firefox since 2015, when I first conceived of the project ( <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;pianop.ly&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;pianop.ly&#x2F;</a>, a web app for playing piano along with original music videos from YouTube, karaoke style). It sucks that I have to tell people to use Chrome or it won&#x27;t work. (although technically they can use Brave, Opera or other Blink based browsers)<p>Regardless of that one feature, I&#x27;m curious why there aren&#x27;t better alternatives based on Blink that allow you to get the Blink engine without all these things we hate about Google&#x27;s decisions (related to the being an ad company, for one thing). I understand that we&#x27;d still have a monoculture, but I don&#x27;t see that as nearly the problem it was when browsers worked so differently, for basic layout and such.
perfunctory超过 6 年前
&gt; Ten years ago, we needed Google Chrome to break the Web free from corporate greed<p>How? It never stops puzzling me why anyone thoght Chrome would be any different. Somehow less corporate.
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throwaway66666超过 6 年前
If anyone&#x27;s to blame it&#x27;s mozilla&#x27;s criminal laziness. There I said it. We were stuck with firefox 3 for 3 years (early 2008-2011), on a time where chrome was getting a +1 version every month or 2 months.<p>I remember Mozilla &quot;evangelist&quot; employees hard at work, tweeting &quot;version doesn&#x27;t matter, it&#x27;s the changelog that matters, chrome team could have changed two background colors and did +1 to the version counter&quot;.<p>Great battle move. Then, Firefox 4 got released and everyone hated the new interface. Even ex-mozilla cofounder JWZ complained that it feels beta even though it&#x27;s a fully mature product out for a decade now and that&#x27;s unacceptable. Also, No mp4 support. Oh yeah. They added it in Firefox 20 finally (then no webm support. They finally added it in January 2019. Good job)<p>In the meantime, Mozilla engineering kept fooling around with projects that went nowhere. Fennec Fox for mobile, what happened to that? THE JAVASCRIPT PHONE! FLASH TO JS CONVERTER, where is that now? That JS only Video Codec ORBX.js? that Eich said &quot;I saw the future today&quot; 10 years ago, and it&#x27;s still not out yet. PDF JS (in it&#x27;s first release made opening large PDF files on Firefox impossible) etc etc. Many good things came of from it too, like asmjs (ancestor of wasm), but in general there seemed a direction of everywhere, neither arriving here nor there.<p>Mozilla then switched the default search engine of Firefox to Yahoo! At a time when Yahoo was in the spotlight for rapidly dying and looking for a pity-acquisition!! It also came bundled with great bugs that kept resetting the default search engine back to yahoo - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;support.mozilla.org&#x2F;en-US&#x2F;questions&#x2F;1206101" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;support.mozilla.org&#x2F;en-US&#x2F;questions&#x2F;1206101</a><p>To give praise where praise is worth, Mozilla did realize their mistakes got back from their 9 year vacation (2009-2018) and Firefox today is finally very stable and relatively fast compared to Edge and Safari.<p>I know I am sounding trollish and bitter, but the truth is that I am just sad at how Firefox fell. What happened? Did people get lazy as their savings grew? Where key individuals poached away by Google and Apple? Did they burn out? Something surely must have happened...
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umvi超过 6 年前
&gt; developers are increasingly shunning other browsers in their testing and bug-fixing routines. If it works as intended on Chrome, it’s ready to ship.<p>That&#x27;s me. Sorry, but I just can&#x27;t be bothered to support every browser&#x27;s quirks. I check Firefox every once in a while, but really, I don&#x27;t mind losing a few users if it means significantly less maintenance and testing for me.<p>It&#x27;s like complaining that developers are increasingly shunning other OSes - if it works on Windows, it&#x27;s ready to ship. Yet people do this all the time for video games and most Linux users understand that making a game that runs equally well on Windows <i>and</i> Linux <i>and</i> Mac is no simple task.
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NotANaN超过 6 年前
There is an important difference between Google and Microsoft. Google is using their market dominance to push their opinions on the open standards bodies; Microsoft used their market dominance to ignore standards bodies completely.
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kowdermeister超过 6 年前
I don&#x27;t particularly like the manifesto style of this post. The author attempts a hard sell by first admitting that the world needed Chrome and then after it succeeded he suggests throwing it to the depths after the wish came true.<p>&gt; Chrome is effectively everywhere you look. And that’s bad news.<p>Why? It&#x27;s the dream you wanted 10 years ago, but it comes with Google now. Ooops for you if you dislike Google, but the vast majority of people doesn&#x27;t care. Use Safari, Firefox or anything, but calling out ditching Chrome is for the greater good is ridiculous.<p>H mentions 60% as a dominant position which is not how I would describe it in my dictionary.
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aeturnum超过 6 年前
As others have said here, I think the article mischaracterizes why stakeholders were enthusiastic about Chrome back in the day. It was a technically compelling browser which joined Firefox in pushing web standards in a way that Microsoft (and Apple) wouldn&#x27;t.<p>I think the dominance of Webkit is concerning, but I don&#x27;t think we can reuse the justifications of ten years ago to say why. Chrome continues to be technically strong (though perhaps not as much) and continues to push web standards (though perhaps too many supporting Google). The situation just isn&#x27;t as bad today as it was. There is a lot less friction in the everyday experience of developers and users who want to use cutting-edge web standards.<p>Monoculture is bad, but it&#x27;s hard to get people excited about challenging it when the monocultural product isn&#x27;t awful.
cletus超过 6 年前
Chrome (from the consumer POV) wasn&#x27;t about freeing us from &quot;corporate greed&quot;. It was about:<p>- Isolating tabs<p>- Seamless upgrades (seriously, why does Firefox STILL ask on startup if I&#x27;d like to wait and install an update?)<p>- Syncing between devices<p>- Performance (which at the time was largely terrible)<p>Most of this still holds true, at least for me, so I see myself using Chrome for years to come.
fixermark超过 6 年前
&gt; If it works as intended on Chrome, it’s ready to ship<p>A great step Firefox could take in this space is improving the transparency and performance auditing of its own engine. Debugging rendering performance issues between browsers is still an absolute nightmare. If Firefox can provide a better developer experience than Chrome, it might increase the likelihood that web developers would use FF as their first-choice development platform for simplicity and utility of tools. If it doesn&#x27;t, it may still decrease the odds that when faced with a nasty performance bug, developers will throw up their hands and say &quot;Chrome does it right; I guess FF still just sucks for performance in this corner case.&quot;<p>FF has been making impressive strides in this space, but their toolchain still feels clunky and slow relative to Chrome Developer Tools.
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mixedCase超过 6 年前
Weird flex suggesting Vivaldi, given that it&#x27;s proprietary and there are other open source Chromium forks.
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zwaps超过 6 年前
Man, I can remember when Google was still an up-and-coming, underdog-ish and exciting tech company, where working was cool and people and &quot;do not evil&quot; was enshrined.<p>I was really happy and excited whenever Google announced something new, because it was always so diverse, new, clever and somehow helped the world.<p>Now things have taken a complete 180 degree turn. Google has become an ad company, and any innovation serves only to squeeze a little bit more data out of users. &quot;Don&#x27;t be evil&quot; got deleted, and Google indeed seems to actively embrace &quot;be evil&quot;. They are not even arguing with it anymore - anything that serves to close down the web, force tracking, breaches of privacy and so on...<p>What changed in google? Any insiders? Just greed? Did important people leave?
fossuser超过 6 年前
I try to switch to Firefox (or even Safari) every few months or so.<p>Firefox was close this time, but there were still a few things that forced me to switch back:<p>- On Chrome I can type &#x27;thisisunsafe&#x27; (previously &#x27;danger&#x27; and &#x27;badidea&#x27;) to skip security warnings, sometimes I have to do this at work when testing things with invalid certs. On FF there&#x27;s a class of these issues (HSTS I think?) that doesn&#x27;t let you bypass the warning so it&#x27;s unusable.<p>- FF still crashes more regularly (like when plugging or unplugging an external monitor.<p>Thankfully the other two main issues are no longer a problem:<p>- FF is now fast enough to be comparable<p>- The third party extensions I required (switchy omega) now exist for FF.
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lxe超过 6 年前
&gt; Ten years ago, we needed Google Chrome to break the Web free from corporate greed<p>Firefox already did this. We needed Chrome because Firefox lagged behind in performance and was a memory hog.
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wespiser_2018超过 6 年前
Where we are now, it&#x27;s not hard to look at Chrome in a negative light, for all the reasons the article states. However, I still remember where I was when I first saw the Chrome &quot;speed test&quot; ad, and thought &quot;wow, this is what a browser should be! <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.adsoftheworld.com&#x2F;media&#x2F;film&#x2F;google_chrome_speed_tests" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.adsoftheworld.com&#x2F;media&#x2F;film&#x2F;google_chrome_speed...</a>
_cs2017_超过 6 年前
Hypothetically speaking, suppose we didn&#x27;t care about privacy at all. In that case, what are the disadvantages of a single browser engine taking over the market?<p>I suspect one disadvantage is that it&#x27;s harder to innovate. Specifically, your new browser engine has no hope of sticking if all websites are heavily customized to Blink, rather than to open standards. It may seem that it&#x27;s not a problem if Blink is open sourced. However, writing a new engine that works <i>exactly</i> like some legacy engine is nearly impossible, even if that legacy engine is open sourced. OTOH, writing a new engine to the specifications of well-designed standards is much more realistic, since presumably those standards are (a) clearly spelled out, (b) written with the idea that they can be implemented without a million lines of legacy code.<p>Of course, this assumes that the community <i>can</i> create high quality and efficient standards. It&#x27;s not obvious, given how difficult it&#x27;s been to achieve in the past, when there was more competition between browsers.<p>Does it sound about right? Any other disadvantages I haven&#x27;t thought of?
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quacked超过 6 年前
It&#x27;s bizarre to see the number of comments on this thread adamantly insisting that Chrome became and stayed popular because of an ad campaign. I was a high school student when Chrome was released. I saw an ad for it, downloaded it, and found that it was much faster and much cleaner-looking that Firefox, so I stayed with it.
shoulderfake超过 6 年前
Whenever Firefox comes out with a new version I try to use it for a week and realize it just doesn&#x27;t perform as well as Chrome. Theres always one or two sites like twitch where it just LAGS to death whereas in Chrome its smooth as butter. At this point I just go back to it. Sigh...
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ridiculous_fish超过 6 年前
Google still pushes Chrome very aggressively. Gmail shows a popover advertising Chrome when I log in. It also puts Chrome ads in security alerts about new logins (!!).<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;imgur.com&#x2F;a&#x2F;eAOCL3J" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;imgur.com&#x2F;a&#x2F;eAOCL3J</a>
tschellenbach超过 6 年前
Chrome is just a better browser. Also, Google already has all my information, so who better to trust with my browsing history?<p>Firefox has &gt;10% market share, it&#x27;s not like anybody can ignore 10% of users. So this article to me sounds like pure content marketing for Firefox.
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jklinger410超过 6 年前
Let me know when Firefox stops being an insane resource hog and I will switch.
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xenadu02超过 6 年前
Firefox and Safari broke IE&#x27;s dominance of the web. Chrome came along much later.<p>Safari killed flash in favor of HTML 5.<p>How quickly everyone likes to forget.
remir超过 6 年前
Do we know why Google grew dissatisfied with Apple and forked Webkit?
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freedman1611超过 6 年前
Look, some misguided individuals seem to hate Chromium because they think it doesn&#x27;t respect their privacy or out of abject hatred for Google. But a lot are not actually looking from an engineering point of view. Browser&#x27;s are the 1# security risk on any computer system due their complexity and access to the outside world. Chromium was the first (and mabye only) web browser that was designed from the ground up with privsep in mind. Firefox on the other hand did not have privsep for a long time, it was only implemented later after the fact. Not only that, Chromium now supports unveil, and new security innovation that blocks the browser&#x27;s access to all files folders on the system except for what specified in settings.
drilldrive超过 6 年前
As a user (non-developer), I never trusted Chrome and never installed it onto my computer. Half of that was laziness, but the other half was understanding that Chrome is driven by ad-revenue and so privacy options would be severely sub-optimal, at least compared to Firefox.
johnmarcus超过 6 年前
yeah....Apple, thats the solution to ending corporate ownership of the web. :smacks head:
newsgremlin超过 6 年前
I almost regret invariably suggesting chrome in every conversation back when IE was leading, such is hindsight.<p>Perhaps instead of telling people what to use we should be telling them how to use, or more accurately how to change. Once people are invested in a platform or service it&#x27;s hard to get them to change their mindset, especially over issues taken for granted like privacy.<p>There&#x27;s a lot more attention to social media on the same issue of privacy, this would be the ideal time to bring chrome into this discussion to work on the &#x27;detachment&#x27;, self-imposed roadblocks, logging out, deleting apps, disabling notifications.
amiga-workbench超过 6 年前
I&#x27;m afraid we are all way too far down the slippery slope here, you&#x27;ve piled so much garbage into web standards its no longer possible for any new players to enter the game without an unreal amount of financial backing.
zmix超过 6 年前
Should someone dare the major task of writing a new web browser, please, make it fully XML aware, so, as to be able to use it as just another component in an XML pipeline, for rendering.<p>A setting to convert all HTML to XHTML. This would allow easy XPath queries while browsing, then XPath 3.1 support, XSLT 3.0 support, XML Catalogs and XQuery in the browser would be cool as well. I am aware, that this is <i>lots</i> of work, but it would be nice to have something, that keeps the document centric web alive, and does not play to the rumor web, that we have become.
exodust超过 6 年前
&gt; <i>&quot;developers are increasingly shunning other browsers in their testing and bug-fixing routines...&quot;</i><p>Not me. I use Chrome to briefly test my builds, then close it and get the hell out of there.<p>I don&#x27;t know why developers didn&#x27;t or don&#x27;t see the conflict of interest with a Google branded browser. I was unsettled by this from the moment they released the browser. Google uses manipulative design patterns as much as any of the big guns. Chrome is not immune to those efforts to manipulate user behavior for business agenda reasons at every tick.
lucideer超过 6 年前
If the desired effect is to make people consider not using Chrome, painting Chrome&#x27;s origins in such rose-tinted light is unlikely to achieve that.<p>Google engaged in exclusionary &quot;embrace-extend-extinguish&quot;-esque tactics from a very early stage in Chrome&#x27;s life, and on web properties that predated Chrome&#x27;s public launch in their development. Painting Chrome as &quot;break[ing] the Web free from corporate greed&quot; is a pretty disparaging insult to those who genuinely have worked for years to try and do that.
carapace超过 6 年前
FWIW, something like 80% to 90% of Mozilla&#x27;s income comes from Google. The non-naive interpretation is that Mozilla&#x2F;Firefox is a <i>figleaf</i> over Google&#x27;s hegemony.
untangle超过 6 年前
I did not find the author&#x27;s points very compelling wrt the &quot;we need chrome no more&quot; link-baity title. Clearly, many users -- mostly devs -- do need Chrome.<p>But more importantly I think that articles such as this deflect from the real abuse-of-power that Google wields and that&#x27;s in advertising. Google can and has shut down whole businesses by withholding access to its ad platforms. I&#x27;m not sure that Google has ever hurt anybody by denying access to Chrome.
3xblah超过 6 年前
&quot;We Need Chrome No more&quot; appeared on HN five months ago, and there was a comment that confirmed there is interest in an alternative search engine written by djb.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=18053163" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=18053163</a><p>It was obviously a joke as no one serious about text-only browsing would suggest lynx over the alternatives (w3m, links, links2, etc.)
zepearl超过 6 年前
Am I the only one on the planet that never had stability nor speed problems with Firefox?<p>(e.g. on Linux when I start Firefox it displays all tabs, but it refreshes&#x2F;loads only the &quot;last&quot;&#x2F;current tab - other tabs are refreshed&#x2F;loaded only if I switch to them. On the other hand when I start Chrome, all tabs are refreshed&#x2F;downloaded immediately, and all of them start running their code whatever it is)
KangLi超过 6 年前
Edge: Hi I&#x27;m Edge, I&#x27;m better than IE. User: I dismiss you on the fact that your icons look identical. Edge: But wait Im diff.......
konart超过 6 年前
&gt; They are even noticeably ahead in areas such as performance, battery usage, privacy, and security.<p>Privacy - maybe.<p>Security? I doubt it. Google does a lot for Chrome to stay safe.<p>Performance adn battery usage? Safari works only on once OS it is build for, so there is really no contest, Firefox on the other hand is still a great way to stresstest your CPU. At least on macOS.<p>Firefox user for many years.
SomeHacker44超过 6 年前
I would love to switch from Chrome to FF on my daily driver but I rely on the multi-profile thing that has no analog in FF. My work windows are separate from my personal ones, and I have different work windows for each company. Of course each is themed differently too, so I know at a glance which I’m in.
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roystonvassey超过 6 年前
The only reason I use Chrome is because I have a chromecast and they only allow Chrome to native cast
ignoramous超过 6 年前
It isn&#x27;t about developer tools anymore than it is about privacy or the open-web. Sadly, just like with IE6, Chrome is the default pre-installed browser in most used handheld OS. Plus, it is in-your-face-advertised on the front page of world&#x27;s most popular website, in case you don&#x27;t happen to have it installed on a Mac or a PC.<p>There&#x27;s very little individuals can do to reverse the trend, short of websites and OEMs coming together to start reversing Chrome&#x27;s stranglehold in an unified campaign (which doesn&#x27;t seem likely).<p>The fall of IE6 was due to innovation from Mozilla and Google putting it&#x27;s weight behind Firefox... What could Safari&#x2F;Firefox do now? Get all or several of Microsoft&#x2F;Facebook&#x2F;Amazon&#x2F;Apple on-board? Investment from these companies is the only way I see out, frankly, if history is any indicator (OpenStreetMap vs GMaps).<p>That said, tech needs to keep improving and so Firefox Quantum was a great first step in the right direction, imo.
arnaudsm超过 6 年前
As someone that loves clean UI and blink&#x27;s speed, is Chromium a trustworthy alternative ?
Aldo_MX超过 6 年前
I&#x27;ll write an unpopular opinion:<p>1. Developer&#x27;s time is not a commodity. The time you spend testing in alternative browsers is time you can spend in tasks that will make life less painful to the people who work with you such as writing tests, documentation, or new code.<p>2. A website that only works in Chrome is preferable to a website that does not exist. The business should be the one who dictates which browsers should be supported, and it should be a rational decision based on data such as reviewing your own analytics. Nobody has infinite resources.<p>3. Using a website is a privilege, not a right. The same way you are free to choose your favorite browser, a website owner is free to choose which users to serve, the same way we can say &quot;Are you still using IE8 in 2019? tough luck buddy, the site is broken&quot;, we can also say &quot;Sorry dude, I didn&#x27;t care enough to support Firefox because X feature was broken&quot;.<p>4. When you as a user decide to choose Firefox because &quot;my ideological reasons&quot;, you are also choosing to deal with the negative aspects such as broken websites, broken extensions, lack of features, loss of mindshare, etc., etc., if you don&#x27;t like dealing with them the alternative is pretty simple: Use Chrome, that&#x27;s what the end users do anyway.<p>The reason Chrome has gained lots of mindshare is because we all love convenience, and there are less-painful alternatives to push the &quot;we don&#x27;t like Google&quot; agenda such as forking Chromium. The &quot;we don&#x27;t track you&quot; is a huge competitive advantage against Google, why should you give up everything that Chromium does right? The resources that Mozilla spends maintaining Gecko could be used more intelligently to build for example a security team to alleviate the concern of having a huge common attack area.<p>Wasn&#x27;t &quot;test once, run everywhere&quot; the holy grail? Or now we like O(N) instead of O(1)?
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nadim超过 6 年前
No mention in this thread so I&#x27;m just going to throw this out there, qutebrowser is an excellent choice in 2019: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.qutebrowser.org" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.qutebrowser.org</a>
writepub超过 6 年前
There certainly is a danger of monopolization with chrome garnering an overwhelming majority of user share. However, I&#x27;m yet to see the negative in testing with chrome and shipping (assuming you&#x27;re only using W3C APIs), as most of the time, chrome is fully compliant with W3C, and other browsers simply aren&#x27;t. Apple is the worst, most guilty of the others, that purposefully cripples iOS Safari to goad users and developers towards the app store. Microsoft probably intended to be fully W3C compliant with Edge, but for whatever reason, they always lagged. And with Mozilla&#x2F;Firefox, it&#x27;s always an obtuse, unreasonable argument when they don&#x27;t comply, they claim it to be in the best interest of the open web, but it is usually a philosophical, more than technical opposition.
marcrosoft超过 6 年前
I agree with the author&#x27;s sentiment but Chrome&#x2F;chromium is just so much better than the alternatives. I&#x27;ve tried to switch to Firefox many times and always came back.<p>They seem to be doing something right.
dade_超过 6 年前
Chrome is the new IE all over again. Remember that it was IE that saved us from Netscape&#x27;s slow performance and advancements of new web technologies.<p>Jump ahead 20 years, low an behold Google Earth - Chrome only!
revskill超过 6 年前
Chrome has some great extensions now: Great Suspender is one of the best. Before Chrome killed my computer with too many tabs, now it&#x27;s fine! Chrome is the best product of Google to me.
jonotime超过 6 年前
Out of curiosity, what Google Apps work better in Chrome? I use plenty of Google services entirely in Firefox and have never had problems. I only fire up chrome when using Chromecast.
redsavagefiero超过 6 年前
Never liked Chrome, but I liked Google as an idea once upon a time.
ravieira超过 6 年前
Yet Another Post Against Chrome. Yes it&#x27;s bad and it spies on us but it&#x27;s also damn good for web development and so far I&#x27;ve found no decent replacement :)
babkayaga超过 6 年前
&gt; we needed Google Chrome to break the Web free Maybe true for the author. But most people use Chrome to browse the web.
charliedevolve超过 6 年前
When I upgraded to FF 60.0.2 the energy use on my Mac went off a cliff. Maybe you should try re-creating your FF profile?
stackzero超过 6 年前
Harvey Dent put it best- &quot;You Either Die A Hero, Or You Live Long Enough To See Yourself Become The Villain&quot;
bbb91超过 6 年前
Profiles are the only thing stopping me moving to Firefox right now. They&#x27;re so easy to use on Chrome.
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gedassan超过 6 年前
Firefox Dev tools Network tab still does not allow to resize columns. It&#x27;s why I hate to use them...
turdnagel超过 6 年前
OP - the footnotes seem to be reversed.
acjohnson55超过 6 年前
I&#x27;m an avid Firefox user, but I just can&#x27;t ignore the fact that it&#x27;s way less performant. Consequently, I use it for my personal life, but when it comes to all the web apps I need for work, I have to go with Chrome, or my computer slows to a crawl. I keep fairly extreme numbers of tabs open, but Chrome is significantly better at coping.
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meh206超过 6 年前
Chrome is nothing more to me than a launchpad for (google) ads and a vehicle for surveillance.
wmnwmn超过 6 年前
I find the opposite - many websites still don&#x27;t seem to test properly on chrome.
gedassan超过 6 年前
Firefox Devtools Network tab still does not allow to resize columns in 2019...
kdmedev超过 6 年前
Just use Opera or Brave right?<p>Aren&#x27;t those browsers just chromium reskinned and customized
chacha2超过 6 年前
Clicking the RSS or JSON link goes no where and then breaks the back button.
kerng超过 6 年前
One thing that people seem to forget is the extreme amount of marketing and push that happened. If you used any Google product (even today) it&#x27;s basically annoyance not to use Chrome, because of all the &quot;popups&quot; and messages you see on screen to switch to Chrome.
orliesaurus超过 6 年前
I have one bigger complaint: It blows my mind that web browsers take GBs of ram to run. I mean, c&#x27;mon, it&#x27;s 2019 how can we not address that? It&#x27;s probably the biggest concern I hear from everyone that uses Chrome and knows how to read their task&#x2F;app manager
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satoshisvision超过 6 年前
Firefox mobile on android is shit<p>Cant even render wikipedia properly<p>I hope mozilla staff reading this
keithtom超过 6 年前
Really? No one going to mention brave.com. It’s chromium based.
NeoBasilisk超过 6 年前
We never needed Chrome. Firefox has been around since 2002.
graphememes超过 6 年前
Back to firefox, few years later, back to chrome.
temporallobe超过 6 年前
One of the reasons I stay with Chrome is because of the superb dev tools, which are even better than in the Firefox Developer Edition
appsonify超过 6 年前
Chrome is poised to comletely monopolize the browser share market.<p>You can&#x27;t fault them either for doing this, this is just what pubic companies do, maximize returns for shareholders and monopolies are the hen that lays golden eggs.<p>This article will not be seen beyond HN. The fact is the vast majority of Chrome users don&#x27;t care that other browser exists, and don&#x27;t want it as long as it is convenient for them (to keep using a familiar platform thats worked well).<p>Anyways, this is just my two cents. I just don&#x27;t see myself using Firefox anymore, it&#x27;s no longer deserving of my attention because I am not concerned about Google&#x27;s goals, we get a lot of shit for free from Google, and we gave up our privacy. Whether this is beneficial or not is up for debate.
MentallyRetired超过 6 年前
Vivaldi and Firefox user, here. Nothing more to say, just wanted to lend my support.<p>What do you all use?
bvanderveen超过 6 年前
No one is in this stinking bordel questions the underlying assumption that the web is an &#x27;open standard&#x27; or that &#x27;competition is good&#x27; or that somehow the democratization of browser implementations and &#x27;standards-making&#x27; is a net win for humanity?<p>The web is an edifice of pressed shit-board that hasn&#x27;t been designed so much as piled up. It isn&#x27;t an open forum of freely-exchanged ideas and social goods so much as a tool in the arsenal of liberal capitalism to more completely atomize and subjugate the individual by forming his proper sense of obligation to have himself devoured by the fetischism of merchandise.<p>Pluck out thy phone and cast it from thee.
stackzero超过 6 年前
Harvey Dent said it best &quot;You Either Die A Hero, Or You Live Long Enough To See Yourself Become The Villain&quot;
rrggrr超过 6 年前
Extensions. I am now locked into Chrome because several services I use require Chrome extensions that aren&#x27;t available elsewhere. The idea that Chrome can be unseated, or isn&#x27;t needed, is unrealistic for the many users who rely on Chrome-exclusive extensions.
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djsumdog超过 6 年前
&gt; Both Chrome and Chromium run Blink under the hood, the rendering engine that started as a WebKit fork in 2013 when Google grew dissatisfied with the Apple-led project<p>Wait, is this accurate? I remember back when Chrome was released, people were talking about how it used parts of both WebKit and Gecko, and the exact specs of which rendering was used changed based on the website.<p>I remember not liking Chrome the moment it came out. Google had poured money into Firefox for years and then suddenly came out with (an initially) closed source competitor. Sure it&#x27;s open source now, but it didn&#x27;t start that way, and was a slap in the face to the Mozilla project.
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misterman0超过 6 年前
More like we need Google no more.<p>You always find the smartest bunch in these threads. Proof: not a single downvoted comment so far.<p>But with all your smarts why aren&#x27;t you building search engines? Is it because you think that with superior tech we can&#x27;t beat Google? I think it will come down to precisely that. Don&#x27;t you see how easy it would be for someone who specializes in search to beat an opponent who specializes in ads?<p>Edit: I should clarify. What I meant was, start specializing in search, or we&#x27;re all dead. Dead meat. By the hands of the Android.
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